Re: [Biofuel] ws Sodium Methoxide MSDS (Sodium methylate) now alternative biodiesel process
Hi Bob; Well although I agree if it aint broke don't fix it but according to the original post this electrically activated process does not require methoxide. If it is true what a nice advancement. According to the original post IIRC it said the process involves adding 15% methanol and the reaction happens at 85 deg C while passing by a DC electrode of 3 to 5kv potential. Here I just found and copied the text out of a reply to a previous post. The subject line of the thread was Titanium (?) snip - Hi There: The following US patent offers making biodiesel by adding 15% MeOH and running the mix at 85degC past very high DC electrode to get 100% conversion - no glycerine, it is converted to 1,2,3-proprionate. The only other byproduct is hydrogen. Very cool, just a little scary. http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=1f=Gl=50co1=ANDd=PG01s1=biodeiselOS=biodeiselRS=biodeisel http://tinyurl.com/8hjv7 Ray snip- The patent reference does not appear to be the right one. Ray?? Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Howdy Pardner bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe (I just had to write Hey Joe before. its the lead to a Jimmy hendrix song I enjoy.) Yeah I get that a lot. When they ask me where you goin with that gun in your hand I say This is my rifle and this is my gun, This is for shooting and this is for fun Ok thanks for your corrections and information below. As a chemist you are a boon to this list. Have you given any thought to the other thread about using some form of energy input to make the esterification reaction go? Apparently it can be done with a high electric field strength and passing the oil/alcohol mixture at elevated temperature (and pressure I am guessing since the vapor pressure of methanol at 85 deg C must be above atmoshpere). I was also wondering about using intense UV light. Any thoughts? To drive a chemical reaction, you need two things: Provide activation energy to move the reaction along and some way to force any equilibrium in the direction you want it to go (for reversible processes). Traditional base catalyzed transesterification uses heat to provide the activation energy and excess methanol to drive the equilibrium further. Other ways to provide the activation energy may be possible, but I would question whether one process was any more cost effective or energy efficient than the traditional methods. To make a long story short, I haven't given it a lot of thought, but for your average Joe(ok another feeble pun), stick with what works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ws Sodium Methoxide MSDS (Sodium methylate) now alternative biodiesel process
Joe, just a couple of comments. all kinds of claims can be made in patent applications, whether they work or not remains to be seen. the process is simple enough that one could try it and see. I did look at the patent application. some of their nomenclature is ambiguous, so it is not clear exactly what the products are claimed to be. BTW, the link you provided is unrelated. It discusses an enzyme catalyzed process. Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; Well although I agree if it aint broke don't fix it but according to the original post this electrically activated process does not require methoxide. If it is true what a nice advancement. According to the original post IIRC it said the process involves adding 15% methanol and the reaction happens at 85 deg C while passing by a DC electrode of 3 to 5kv potential. Here I just found and copied the text out of a reply to a previous post. The subject line of the thread was Titanium (?) snip - Hi There: The following US patent offers making biodiesel by adding 15% MeOH and running the mix at 85degC past very high DC electrode to get 100% conversion - no glycerine, it is converted to 1,2,3-proprionate. The only other byproduct is hydrogen. Very cool, just a little scary. http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=1f=Gl=50co1=ANDd=PG01s1=biodeiselOS=biodeiselRS=biodeisel http://tinyurl.com/8hjv7 Ray snip- The patent reference does not appear to be the right one. Ray?? Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Howdy Pardner bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe (I just had to write Hey Joe before. its the lead to a Jimmy hendrix song I enjoy.) Yeah I get that a lot. When they ask me where you goin with that gun in your hand I say This is my rifle and this is my gun, This is for shooting and this is for fun Ok thanks for your corrections and information below. As a chemist you are a boon to this list. Have you given any thought to the other thread about using some form of energy input to make the esterification reaction go? Apparently it can be done with a high electric field strength and passing the oil/alcohol mixture at elevated temperature (and pressure I am guessing since the vapor pressure of methanol at 85 deg C must be above atmoshpere). I was also wondering about using intense UV light. Any thoughts? To drive a chemical reaction, you need two things: Provide activation energy to move the reaction along and some way to force any equilibrium in the direction you want it to go (for reversible processes). Traditional base catalyzed transesterification uses heat to provide the activation energy and excess methanol to drive the equilibrium further. Other ways to provide the activation energy may be possible, but I would question whether one process was any more cost effective or energy efficient than the traditional methods. To make a long story short, I haven't given it a lot of thought, but for your average Joe(ok another feeble pun), stick with what works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ws Sodium Methoxide MSDS (Sodium methylate) now alternative biodiesel process
Hi Bob; Yes I figured the link was bogus (I guess you didn't notice my note to that effect) so where is the real patent application do you have a link? How did you find it? Ray do you have it? BTW I did a quick test last night using a tesla coil and 40ml of WVO with 15% methanol. Of course the potential was ac instead of dc but I was curious and it was an easy thing to try. I could see a light colored phase coming off the wire at the tip where the feild is most concentrated. This was at ambient conditions. I didn't see any gas bubbles (the email said a byproduct was hydrogen) until I actually drew a submerged arc which was probably just vaporized methanol. I'll have to build a proper HV stack and try it with DC. Joe bob allen wrote: Joe, just a couple of comments. all kinds of claims can be made in patent applications, whether they work or not remains to be seen. the process is simple enough that one could try it and see. I did look at the patent application. some of their nomenclature is ambiguous, so it is not clear exactly what the products are claimed to be. BTW, the link you provided is unrelated. It discusses an enzyme catalyzed process. Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; Well although I agree if it aint broke don't fix it but according to the original post this electrically activated process does not require methoxide. If it is true what a nice advancement. According to the original post IIRC it said the process involves adding 15% methanol and the reaction happens at 85 deg C while passing by a DC electrode of 3 to 5kv potential. Here I just found and copied the text out of a reply to a previous post. The subject line of the thread was Titanium (?) snip - Hi There: The following US patent offers making biodiesel by adding 15% MeOH and running the mix at 85degC past very high DC electrode to get 100% conversion - no glycerine, it is converted to 1,2,3-proprionate. The only other byproduct is hydrogen. Very cool, just a little scary. http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=1f=Gl=50co1=ANDd=PG01s1=biodeiselOS=biodeiselRS=biodeisel http://tinyurl.com/8hjv7 Ray snip- The patent reference does not appear to be the right one. Ray?? Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Howdy Pardner bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe (I just had to write Hey Joe before. its the lead to a Jimmy hendrix song I enjoy.) Yeah I get that a lot. When they ask me where you goin with that gun in your hand I say This is my rifle and this is my gun, This is for shooting and this is for fun Ok thanks for your corrections and information below. As a chemist you are a boon to this list. Have you given any thought to the other thread about using some form of energy input to make the esterification reaction go? Apparently it can be done with a high electric field strength and passing the oil/alcohol mixture at elevated temperature (and pressure I am guessing since the vapor pressure of methanol at 85 deg C must be above atmoshpere). I was also wondering about using intense UV light. Any thoughts? To drive a chemical reaction, you need two things: Provide activation energy to move the reaction along and some way to force any equilibrium in the direction you want it to go (for reversible processes). Traditional base catalyzed transesterification uses heat to provide the activation energy and excess methanol to drive the equilibrium further. Other ways to provide the activation energy may be possible, but I would question whether one process was any more cost effective or energy efficient than the traditional methods. To make a long story short, I haven't given it a lot of thought, but for your average Joe(ok another feeble pun), stick with what works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ws Sodium Methoxide MSDS (Sodium methylate) now alternative biodiesel process
snip- The patent reference does not appear to be the right one. Ray?? Joe My apologies http://tinyurl.com/cxukc Ray ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
