RE: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread Bryan Brah


I disagree that the US couldn't go to war with Europe.  After all, we've
already fought each of the European countries individually and beaten
them (except France).  Additionally, it wouldn't be the first time the
US has turned on an ally (remember that we fought beside the Soviets in
WWII and they became our greatest enemy).  I can easily picture the
neo-cons hyping the EU as a threat to American sovereignty.  Considering
that the current administration has alienated all of our old European
allies (except Britain, which incidentally is at odds with many EU
policies), I could easily picture another European war.  At the very
least we'll have another cold war with resulting proxy wars in Africa,
Asia, and South America.  The United States of America is the largest
exporter of war and war materiel (see
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_con_arm_exp for the stats).
The profits of the global multinational corporations are closely tied to
our belligerence.   How long do you think that they can hype the current
"terror threat?"  I would have to say (perhaps cynically) that the
terror threat will end once the US has a "more worthy" opponent.  I've
wondered since the demise of the USSR which country that would be, and
always assumed that it would be China.  However, it seems plausible that
it could be the EU, particularly if it opposes the neo-cons plan for
American hegemony.  Check out http://www.newamericancentury.org
<http://www.newamericancentury.org/>  to see Zbigniew Brzezinski's
vision of what the world "should and will" look like.


-BRAH


  

 

-Original Message-
From: Martin Klingensmith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:45 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

 

Ken Provost wrote:

>A buddy at work (jewish, socialist, New Yorker, so yeah he's
>probly a little AHEAD of the curve) was speculating that U.S.
>would be at war with Europe within 15 years. Another fellow
>asked if that would be just France, but he said he figgered
>all of Europe would be together in it.
>
>I was thinking at the time that U.S. has already LOST the war
>with  Europe, but what do I know?
>
>Anyway, since there's some Europeans here, and the putative
>war would probly be about OIL (or paying for it with euros
>instead of dollars), I thought this forum might have some
>light to shed on Fred's idea..  -K
>
>  
>
There's too much of a connection with Europe to fight a war with them. 
It would be an awfully hard sell to the American people, one which I 
would never buy. I've never bought the Iraq war either, but what do I
know.
--
Martin K


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Re: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread jkolling

You are right, it is not working as it should.

Donald Allwright wrote:

> >   Historically, democracies have not attacked one another.  That
> > may be history pretty soon . . .
>
> Since when have America and the various European nations been
> democracies? The form of 'democracy' that exists is just an illusion
> created by the ruling elite, to control the masses and stop them
> revolting. If you don't believe me, just look at the last presidential
> election in the US, and the way the European Union is handling the
> issue of Software Patents. Both would show that the wishes of the
> population are totally irrelevant to the outcome.
>
> > robert luis rabello
> > "The Edge of Justice"
> > Adventure for Your Mind
> > http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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> > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> >
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> >
> > 
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> =
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>
>
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Re: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread Hakan Falk


Ken,

Your fiend is wrong, there are no gains in a US - Europe war. Europe have 
not enough oil and the losses would be too large. 2020 Bush is not 
president and US will not go to a war were many lives are lost, without 
making substantial gains. If Iraq becomes a true democracy, US will not 
make this mistake again. US would deal with a peaceful country and will not 
have the absolute control over the oil that they need. US will try to go 
back to support of strong dictators, but I think that this will not work in 
the future. Bush did let the genie out of the bottle, which will lead to 
large and severe consequences.

The process of exchanging dollar to Euro have already started, that is one 
of the reasons for the high oil prices in dollar. Oil prices in Euro have 
not gone up more than a couple of Euros. The fact is that the current high 
oil prices does not effect Europe that much, because they are in dollar and 
the Euro has gone up very much, from a low of around 0.85 dollar for a Euro 
to around 1.20+ dollar for a Euro. This is one of the explanations for the 
high oil prices, the dollar have depreciated and Euro is now already an 
alternative. The reality is that the Euro already started to 
replace/complement the dollar. A world war to destroy a currency is not 
likely to be successful. Your friend is however right, the Euro is probably 
the largest single threat against US world dominance.

A war does not necessary support exchange rates, fiscal policies does and a 
war cost too much. Already WWII were about energy and the outcome also 
effected very much by the availability to energy resources. That is why 
Japan attacked Hawaii (the fuel embargo) and that the fighting in middle 
east was so crucial before D-day. At that time, US was in a very strong 
position, as the major oil supplier of the world.

The growth of energy use in East Europe, Far East and especially China, is 
more of a threat and it will be very difficult for US to maintain its 
position. Nuclear and coal, are almost the only available stop gap 
solutions and short term alternatives to a massive and diversified 
investment in renewable. The latter will break up the corporate monopolies, 
if it must be done in a short time frame. It will also be too localized and 
change the power structures in the world. This is why hydrogen looks 
attractive, because it create a dependence on other finite resources, 
namely materials and technologies for production and containment.

It is not an easy situation and the outcome is very difficult to predict.

Hakan

At 03:22 28/07/2004, you wrote:
>A buddy at work (jewish, socialist, New Yorker, so yeah he's
>probly a little AHEAD of the curve) was speculating that U.S.
>would be at war with Europe within 15 years. Another fellow
>asked if that would be just France, but he said he figgered
>all of Europe would be together in it.
>
>I was thinking at the time that U.S. has already LOST the war
>with  Europe, but what do I know?
>
>Anyway, since there's some Europeans here, and the putative
>war would probly be about OIL (or paying for it with euros
>instead of dollars), I thought this forum might have some
>light to shed on Fred's idea..  -K




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Re: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread Martin Klingensmith

Ken Provost wrote:

>A buddy at work (jewish, socialist, New Yorker, so yeah he's
>probly a little AHEAD of the curve) was speculating that U.S.
>would be at war with Europe within 15 years. Another fellow
>asked if that would be just France, but he said he figgered
>all of Europe would be together in it.
>
>I was thinking at the time that U.S. has already LOST the war
>with  Europe, but what do I know?
>
>Anyway, since there's some Europeans here, and the putative
>war would probly be about OIL (or paying for it with euros
>instead of dollars), I thought this forum might have some
>light to shed on Fred's idea..  -K
>
>  
>
There's too much of a connection with Europe to fight a war with them. 
It would be an awfully hard sell to the American people, one which I 
would never buy. I've never bought the Iraq war either, but what do I know.
--
Martin K


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Re[2]: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Donald,

Wednesday, 28 July, 2004, 05:46:52, you wrote:

DA>  --- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
>> A buddy at work (jewish, socialist, New Yorker, so yeah he's
>> probly a little AHEAD of the curve) was speculating that U.S.
>> would be at war with Europe within 15 years. Another fellow
>> asked if that would be just France, but he said he figgered
>> all of Europe would be together in it.
>> 
>> I was thinking at the time that U.S. has already LOST the war
>> with  Europe, but what do I know?
>> 
>> Anyway, since there's some Europeans here, and the putative
>> war would probly be about OIL (or paying for it with euros
>> instead of dollars), I thought this forum might have some
>> light to shed on Fred's idea..  -K

DA> Please note my following comments refer primarily to the _political_
DA> systems in place, not individuals from each region of the world!

Noted.  The same applies to my statements.

DA> I think we can safely say that Europe and America have been at war with
DA> each other for a very long time - mainly over trade issues, but in the
DA> bigger picture over cultural and environmental issues too. From the
DA> European side of the equation, America is seen as acting primarily to
DA> exert and maintain its power over the rest of the world through its de
DA> facto monopolies and trade policies - which serve only to enrich
DA> America even further. America's (i.e. governmental, not individual
DA> Americans') attitude to environmental issues (such as the Kyoto
DA> protocol) suggest that they don't care about the rest of the world. The
DA> fact that America goes its own way in so many areas of technology
DA> (mobile phone standards, NTSC vs PAL in TV standards for example) is
DA> cited as evidence of protectionist policies that effectively only allow
DA> American companies to compete in the particular market sector. The way
DA> contracts have been awarded in Iraq following the war has also raised
DA> questions about 'jobs for the boys' as the large American companies
DA> have ended up winning the contracts, by and large.

It  is  a matter of power and national advantage and it is not limited
to  the  United States.  It used to be the UK.  The roots of the first
world  war  lie  in  the machinations of the power politics of all the
countries  involved  and  particularly  the British.  No one is immune
from  this  and I believe it to be inherent in ANY organized system of
governance.   If  you go to the anarchism mailing list they will point
you to their FAQ's and the FAQ's will tell you that anarchism requires
using  the  socialist  economic system.  Requires it.  Anarchism.  And
this  is in any organized system.  Look at organized religion.  The US
just happens to be the big dog on the block at the moment.  That could
change in a heartbeat.  Remember the USSR?

DA> As far as oil and energy are concerned, here in the UK most people do
DA> see 'the Middle East situation' as being largely as a result of
DA> America's quest to control the oil reserves, but with Europe also
DA> playing their part. If you look at each nation's energy consumption per
DA> capita, America uses roughly twice as much as European nations (source:
DA> the Economist, I could dig out detailed figures). Other nations
DA> generally come much lower, although there are exceptions. This is often
DA> considered to be evidence of America's profligacy. Other considerations
DA> include the pump price of motor fuel. If crude oil prices double, the
DA> percentage increase in pump prices is much higher in America than in
DA> Europe, simply because Americans pay vastly less fuel tax than
DA> Europeans. So here there is much less of a focus on oil prices than in
DA> America, although there are groups who used recent high prices to
DA> threaten strike action and the government eventually backed down from a
DA> proposed tax increase on fuel. Because Europe is very congested, high
DA> fuel prices serve a very important secondary purpose in discouraging
DA> people from over-using their cars. If the prices were to drop to
DA> American prices, people would be happy for about a day before they
DA> realised that everyone was using their cars more and the road system
DA> would grind to a total halt. Most would then ask for the prices to go
DA> back up!

We have to go back a lot further to see the actual roots of the middle
east  problem.   Culturally  and religiously it has been there for God
only  knows  how long.  Politically we can look to the big dogs of the
early  20th  century  and  we  will  see  the British with the Balfour
declaration  and  the  formation of the political state of Iraq out of
three  disparate  peoples.   Further  along  in the century we see the
cooperation  between  Hitler  and  the  Zionists  and  Britain and the
Zionists  as  adding  fuel to the fire.  Then the US entered the scene
and mucked it up even more.

Cultural  and  geographical  differences  between  the US and European
nations  account  for 

Re: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread Appal Energy

Your "buddy" is someone who needs to operate in a mindset of fear. War is a
matter of choice, predicated entirely upon the choices that were made in the
years and months leading up to it.

Speculating on what happens or doesn't happen in 16 years changes nothing.
Acting today changes everything.

Todd Swearingen


- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 8:22 PM
Subject: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020


> A buddy at work (jewish, socialist, New Yorker, so yeah he's
> probly a little AHEAD of the curve) was speculating that U.S.
> would be at war with Europe within 15 years. Another fellow
> asked if that would be just France, but he said he figgered
> all of Europe would be together in it.
>
> I was thinking at the time that U.S. has already LOST the war
> with  Europe, but what do I know?
>
> Anyway, since there's some Europeans here, and the putative
> war would probly be about OIL (or paying for it with euros
> instead of dollars), I thought this forum might have some
> light to shed on Fred's idea..  -K
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>



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Re: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread Donald Allwright

>   Historically, democracies have not attacked one another.  That
> may be history pretty soon . . .

Since when have America and the various European nations been
democracies? The form of 'democracy' that exists is just an illusion
created by the ruling elite, to control the masses and stop them
revolting. If you don't believe me, just look at the last presidential
election in the US, and the way the European Union is handling the
issue of Software Patents. Both would show that the wishes of the
population are totally irrelevant to the outcome.

> robert luis rabello
> "The Edge of Justice"
> Adventure for Your Mind
> http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>  
> 
>  

=
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Re: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread Donald Allwright

 --- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> A buddy at work (jewish, socialist, New Yorker, so yeah he's
> probly a little AHEAD of the curve) was speculating that U.S.
> would be at war with Europe within 15 years. Another fellow
> asked if that would be just France, but he said he figgered
> all of Europe would be together in it.
> 
> I was thinking at the time that U.S. has already LOST the war
> with  Europe, but what do I know?
> 
> Anyway, since there's some Europeans here, and the putative
> war would probly be about OIL (or paying for it with euros
> instead of dollars), I thought this forum might have some
> light to shed on Fred's idea..  -K

Please note my following comments refer primarily to the _political_
systems in place, not individuals from each region of the world!

I think we can safely say that Europe and America have been at war with
each other for a very long time - mainly over trade issues, but in the
bigger picture over cultural and environmental issues too. From the
European side of the equation, America is seen as acting primarily to
exert and maintain its power over the rest of the world through its de
facto monopolies and trade policies - which serve only to enrich
America even further. America's (i.e. governmental, not individual
Americans') attitude to environmental issues (such as the Kyoto
protocol) suggest that they don't care about the rest of the world. The
fact that America goes its own way in so many areas of technology
(mobile phone standards, NTSC vs PAL in TV standards for example) is
cited as evidence of protectionist policies that effectively only allow
American companies to compete in the particular market sector. The way
contracts have been awarded in Iraq following the war has also raised
questions about 'jobs for the boys' as the large American companies
have ended up winning the contracts, by and large.

As far as oil and energy are concerned, here in the UK most people do
see 'the Middle East situation' as being largely as a result of
America's quest to control the oil reserves, but with Europe also
playing their part. If you look at each nation's energy consumption per
capita, America uses roughly twice as much as European nations (source:
the Economist, I could dig out detailed figures). Other nations
generally come much lower, although there are exceptions. This is often
considered to be evidence of America's profligacy. Other considerations
include the pump price of motor fuel. If crude oil prices double, the
percentage increase in pump prices is much higher in America than in
Europe, simply because Americans pay vastly less fuel tax than
Europeans. So here there is much less of a focus on oil prices than in
America, although there are groups who used recent high prices to
threaten strike action and the government eventually backed down from a
proposed tax increase on fuel. Because Europe is very congested, high
fuel prices serve a very important secondary purpose in discouraging
people from over-using their cars. If the prices were to drop to
American prices, people would be happy for about a day before they
realised that everyone was using their cars more and the road system
would grind to a total halt. Most would then ask for the prices to go
back up!

My impression is that individual Americans come up with a vast number
of great ideas, but are trapped in a political system that doesn't
allow most of them to thrive. Big businesses with vested interests see
to it that the government at the time (whether Republican or Democrat)
never implement any policies that would upset them. By big business I
mean companies like the oil companies, Microsoft, the motor
manufacturers, even Coca Cola and McDonalds. The political parties both
have too much to lose by upsetting these companies.

I'd be interested on the American perspective of the above issues - how
do Americans perceive Europeans over the above issues?

Regards,
Donald

=
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Re: [biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread robert luis rabello

Ken Provost wrote:

> A buddy at work (jewish, socialist, New Yorker, so yeah he's
> probly a little AHEAD of the curve) was speculating that U.S.
> would be at war with Europe within 15 years. Another fellow
> asked if that would be just France, but he said he figgered
> all of Europe would be together in it.
> 
> I was thinking at the time that U.S. has already LOST the war
> with  Europe, but what do I know?
> 
> Anyway, since there's some Europeans here, and the putative
> war would probly be about OIL (or paying for it with euros
> instead of dollars), I thought this forum might have some
> light to shed on Fred's idea..  -K


An old friend of mine argues that this is the REAL reason why the 
military is pushing for expensive weapons systems, like the Joint 
Strike fighter, new tanks, armor and smaller, tactical nuclear 
weapons.  This is a little scary, but at the rate things are going, I 
wouldn't be at all suprised by it.

Historically, democracies have not attacked one another.  That may be 
history pretty soon . . .
robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>




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[biofuel] European-American War of 2020

2004-07-28 Thread Ken Provost

A buddy at work (jewish, socialist, New Yorker, so yeah he's
probly a little AHEAD of the curve) was speculating that U.S.
would be at war with Europe within 15 years. Another fellow
asked if that would be just France, but he said he figgered
all of Europe would be together in it.

I was thinking at the time that U.S. has already LOST the war
with  Europe, but what do I know?

Anyway, since there's some Europeans here, and the putative
war would probly be about OIL (or paying for it with euros
instead of dollars), I thought this forum might have some
light to shed on Fred's idea..  -K




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