[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:10:53 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Backward compatability does not seem to be at issue. Yes and no. Once it is established that backward compatability is not at issue or is mostly not at issue, for dino-diesel engines, then this information needs to be disseminated or chewed over by people such as myself in our battles comparing biodiesel, as an alt-fuel, with the half-dozen or more other supposedly-superior-to-everything-under-the-sun alt-fuel proposals (such as for Propane, CNG, electricity, H2, Hythane, etc.) that we hear every week. Then there are nuances to the debate in other alt-fuels. With electricity, for example, we have all sorts of charger proposals with all levels of safety or claimed safety, convencience, time of recharge (very important with EV and grid-chargeable hybrid proposals, etc.) Electricity is more backwards-compatible with present infrastructure in one sense than other alt-fuels, because the means for distributing the fuel all well-estalished all over the place. Then if you have a standard plug on your EV it is very compatible (assuming you install proper charger and safety equipment in your garage). But those standard plugs may or may not be not tops in other areas such as safety or efficiency or time-to-recharge, so there are just lots of details as you can see. Not to say that this non-biofuel-stuff is what you took away from my mention of backwards compatability, but once I can hear clearly from folks such as yourself on the finer points (if any) of biodiesel in all areas, such as backwards compatability, then I can try, as I have been, to bring this to other folks who don't know as much about it, in the energy policy debates that are where I'm sort of coming from. So, I cannot as easily dismiss this debate, although I could see for someone like yourself that getting it momentarily out of the way would be critical to getting-your-tasks-done. MM Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
Backward compatability does not seem to be at issue. Japenese manufacturers diesel models do not seem to have the endurance to go as long as European autos Not true. The Japanese have built some amazingly tough and long-lasting diesels, and they still do. The Japanese companies are right up there with the latest diesel technology. After all, Europe is a major market for them, they're not missing out on the growth in diesel sales there. All you tend to hear about in the US is the hybrids. There's much more to it than that. and Europeans have been building with biodiesel in mind since 1996. After x amount of years, it wont be a problem. As far as the legally protected monopolies...I see a bigger problem with the oil companies and the government needed to implement change. Change that starts from the bottom up can go right ahead without waiting for governments and oil companies. That already started some time ago, and has been growing and spreading very fast indeed. Waste (such as grease from homes and restauraunts) is currently thrown out as hazardous materials here in New York! Yes, all over the US, billions of gallons of it. I have been crunching some numbers to see if it is feasible to take advantage of this. Of course it is. You sure won't be the first. There's loads of stuff in the archives about this. Keith G Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:10:53 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Backward compatability does not seem to be at issue. Yes and no. Once it is established that backward compatability is not at issue or is mostly not at issue, for dino-diesel engines, then this information needs to be disseminated or chewed over by people such as myself in our battles comparing biodiesel, as an alt-fuel, with the half-dozen or more other supposedly-superior-to-everything-under-the-sun alt-fuel proposals (such as for Propane, CNG, electricity, H2, Hythane, etc.) that we hear every week. Then there are nuances to the debate in other alt-fuels. With electricity, for example, we have all sorts of charger proposals with all levels of safety or claimed safety, convencience, time of recharge (very important with EV and grid-chargeable hybrid proposals, etc.) Electricity is more backwards-compatible with present infrastructure in one sense than other alt-fuels, because the means for distributing the fuel all well-estalished all over the place. Then if you have a standard plug on your EV it is very compatible (assuming you install proper charger and safety equipment in your garage). But those standard plugs may or may not be not tops in other areas such as safety or efficiency or time-to-recharge, so there are just lots of details as you can see. Not to say that this non-biofuel-stuff is what you took away from my mention of backwards compatability, but once I can hear clearly from folks such as yourself on the finer points (if any) of biodiesel in all areas, such as backwards compatability, then I can try, as I have been, to bring this to other folks who don't know as much about it, in the energy policy debates that are where I'm sort of coming from. So, I cannot as easily dismiss this debate, although I could see for someone like yourself that getting it momentarily out of the way would be critical to getting-your-tasks-done. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
Ad hoc comment: One of the issues that tugs at me when I have seen recent debate (or quasi-science or shouting) over whether some of the biofuels are sustainable is that the fuel itself, if it is a relatively simple standardizeable not-horrifically-toxic chemical, is a somewhat *separate issue* from how it is derived. So, a debate over the sustainability of ethyl alcohol as a fuel of the future, whether it took place in the 30s or today, should include the concept that while it may well be presently sourced from much agriculture or semi-agriculture, I'd think we could somehow *manufacture* such a fuel, going forward, by new innovative methods as well. What is to prevent us, with all the scientists we have sitting around, from taking some solar-derived electricity and trying to make such relatively simple chemical compounds as ethyl alcohol from widely available chemicals such as water and CO2 and O2 and what-have-you. MM Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
Dear MM, I think that you are right in that future innovative methods and solution must be pursued. It is however a little bit scaring if you look at it. What we mostly discuss for used are Biofuel, Windmills, Passive solar etc., all are new technologies that goes more than 100 years back. Other new technologies like fuel cells etc. goes 50 to 80 years back. Then we find that corporate and political interests actually turned us away from going on more sustainable and cleaner routes 60 to 100 years ago. I sincerely hope that we can correct all this stupidity and go forward with better ways of doing things. I have my doubts, if I look at the present leaders. Hakan At 03:27 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, you wrote: Ad hoc comment: One of the issues that tugs at me when I have seen recent debate (or quasi-science or shouting) over whether some of the biofuels are sustainable is that the fuel itself, if it is a relatively simple standardizeable not-horrifically-toxic chemical, is a somewhat *separate issue* from how it is derived. So, a debate over the sustainability of ethyl alcohol as a fuel of the future, whether it took place in the 30s or today, should include the concept that while it may well be presently sourced from much agriculture or semi-agriculture, I'd think we could somehow *manufacture* such a fuel, going forward, by new innovative methods as well. What is to prevent us, with all the scientists we have sitting around, from taking some solar-derived electricity and trying to make such relatively simple chemical compounds as ethyl alcohol from widely available chemicals such as water and CO2 and O2 and what-have-you. MM Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:51:21 -0800 (PST), you wrote: There is way too much debate on whether on not to use these alternate fuels because of sustainability. Clearly, when American farmers are paid to not grow crops the issue seems to be resolved! Too much debate and not enough action! I have been contemplating biodiesel in an older Benz but if I wait for the testing, and the debates and wait for the meeting of the minds, I will be waiting a long time. Time to brew up some fat in the garage! Well, really, I couldn't agree with you more, from a personal get it done perspective. The debate over sustainability is important perhaps not directly to your own project but to whether the powers-that-be vote to get over the umpteen different hurdles that are thrown in the way of alt-fuel efforts by the petrol industry, and to get the hell out of the way of legitimate competition in the fuel industry and waste recycling industry. In my estimation, of those hurdles, one of the toughest is in getting an accurate read on sustainability, alongside a few others such as backward compatability with legacy machinery, breaking through the worldwide fuel distribution in-place legally-protected monopolies or near-monopolies, new environmental issues that may come up with relatively new technologies, and a few others I guess. If petrol were sustainable and somewhat more environmentally friendly to drill, refine and use, we probably wouldn't care nearly as much about finding alternatives. It's pretty cheap at present, energy dense and useful in myriad ways. Lack of U.S. domestic availability also contributes to the search for alternatives. The payment of U.S. farmers not to grow crops doesn't settle the issue for me because if you're talking about not only feeding all U.S. citizens but also replacing most U.S. fuel needs with biofuels then the amounts needed are staggering... not at all just what is needed for one side (food). What I like to focus on is that we have waste (such as grease from homes and restauraunts) which is presently not optimally used. This, to me, is a clue in economics that something is a bit amiss. Theoretically, an enterprising person, in a competitive economy (which ours is often alleged to be) would be able to spot that waste and make use of it and make money from it, or at least make a go of it. MM Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
Ad hoc comment: One of the issues that tugs at me when I have seen recent debate (or quasi-science or shouting) over whether some of the biofuels are sustainable is that the fuel itself, if it is a relatively simple standardizeable not-horrifically-toxic chemical, is a somewhat *separate issue* from how it is derived. So, a debate over the sustainability of ethyl alcohol as a fuel of the future, whether it took place in the 30s or today, should include the concept that while it may well be presently sourced from much agriculture or semi-agriculture, I'd think we could somehow *manufacture* such a fuel, going forward, by new innovative methods as well. What is to prevent us, with all the scientists we have sitting around, from taking some solar-derived electricity and trying to make such relatively simple chemical compounds as ethyl alcohol from widely available chemicals such as water and CO2 and O2 and what-have-you. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
There is way too much debate on whether on not to use these alternate fuels because of sustainability. Clearly, when American farmers are paid to not grow crops the issue seems to be resolved! Too much debate and not enough action! I have been contemplating biodiesel in an older Benz but if I wait for the testing, and the debates and wait for the meeting of the minds, I will be waiting a long time. Time to brew up some fat in the garage! __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:51:21 -0800 (PST), you wrote: There is way too much debate on whether on not to use these alternate fuels because of sustainability. Clearly, when American farmers are paid to not grow crops the issue seems to be resolved! Too much debate and not enough action! I have been contemplating biodiesel in an older Benz but if I wait for the testing, and the debates and wait for the meeting of the minds, I will be waiting a long time. Time to brew up some fat in the garage! Well, really, I couldn't agree with you more, from a personal get it done perspective. The debate over sustainability is important perhaps not directly to your own project but to whether the powers-that-be vote to get over the umpteen different hurdles that are thrown in the way of alt-fuel efforts by the petrol industry, and to get the hell out of the way of legitimate competition in the fuel industry and waste recycling industry. In my estimation, of those hurdles, one of the toughest is in getting an accurate read on sustainability, alongside a few others such as backward compatability with legacy machinery, breaking through the worldwide fuel distribution in-place legally-protected monopolies or near-monopolies, new environmental issues that may come up with relatively new technologies, and a few others I guess. If petrol were sustainable and somewhat more environmentally friendly to drill, refine and use, we probably wouldn't care nearly as much about finding alternatives. It's pretty cheap at present, energy dense and useful in myriad ways. Lack of U.S. domestic availability also contributes to the search for alternatives. The payment of U.S. farmers not to grow crops doesn't settle the issue for me because if you're talking about not only feeding all U.S. citizens but also replacing most U.S. fuel needs with biofuels then the amounts needed are staggering... not at all just what is needed for one side (food). What I like to focus on is that we have waste (such as grease from homes and restauraunts) which is presently not optimally used. This, to me, is a clue in economics that something is a bit amiss. Theoretically, an enterprising person, in a competitive economy (which ours is often alleged to be) would be able to spot that waste and make use of it and make money from it, or at least make a go of it. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
Backward compatability does not seem to be at issue. Japenese manufacturers diesel models do not seem to have the endurance to go as long as European autos and Europeans have been building with biodiesel in mind since 1996. After x amount of years, it wont be a problem. As far as the legally protected monopolies...I see a bigger problem with the oil companies and the government needed to implement change. Waste (such as grease from homes and restauraunts) is currently thrown out as hazardous materials here in New York! I have been crunching some numbers to see if it is feasible to take advantage of this. G __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future
See also: http://www.globalleadnet.org/advocacy/initiatives/nation.cfm The Secret History of Lead, Jamie Lincoln Kitman / The Nation 20mar00 http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/papers/fuel.html Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and The Fuel of the Future in press, Society of Automotive Historians, 1998 Copyright Bill Kovarik, 1998 by Bill Kovarik, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Dept. of Media Studies Radford University Radford, Va. 24142 Abstract The fuel of the future, according to inventor Henry Ford and General Motors' scientist Charles F. Kettering, was ethyl alcohol made from farm products and cellulosic materials. Henry Ford's outright support culminated with the the Dearborn, Mich. Chemurgy conferences in the 1930s. Little is known about Kettering's interest in ethyl alcohol fuel and how it fit into G.M.'s long term strategy. Moreover, aside from the Chemurgy conferences and a brief period of commercial alcohol-gasoline sales in the Midwest during the 1930s, very little is known about the technological, economic and political context of alcohol fuels use. This paper examines that context, including the competition between lamp fuels in the 19th century; the scientific studies about alcohol as a fuel in the early 20th century; the development of ethyl leaded gasoline as a bridge to the fuel of the future in the 1920s; the worldwide use of alcohol - gasoline blends in the 1920s and 30s; and the eventual emergence of the farm Chemurgy movement and its support for alcohol fuel in the 1930s. [more] Long article - 21,000 words, good read. Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
