RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
Most newer inverters are PWM sine wave output. Modern MOSFET designs improve efficiency incredibly over less efficient transistor designs. A 500W inverter wasting 20% is quite exaggerated, I have seen actual values from 90-97% A lot of people don't take into account the losses associated with running low-voltage high-current power through a conductor. A 12 volt appliance drawing 20 amps with a loss of .08 ohms in the conductor [size 12 AWG, 50 feet] would have a drop of 1.58 volts - assuming you could get that 20 amps of current [max allowed for 12 gauge wire], you would be wasting 30 watts in your wire. 24 volt systems are much better. Depending on your situation and if the wire already exists in your house, you may be better off using a high-efficiency inverter or inverters that switch on with an increasing load [to reduce idle losses] Larger-gauge wire would also be a lot more expensive for new installations. --- Martin Klingensmith infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] nnytech.net -Original Message- From: John Mullan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:21 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. I have been keeping my on the inverter subject for a while. As a 'reasonably' educated electronics technician (mostly digital) I feel I can comment on this. Most inverters are notorious energy wasters. Energy waste is proportional to energy drawn. For example (not accurate) a 100W inverter wastes 5% while a 500W inverter wastes 20%. Transformers can of course give you a better sine wave. However, 60hz is such a low frequency that you need a huge transformer. Solid state produces the noisier sine wave and depending on the wattage you require, can be very difficult to keep the output devices cool. Many of the new inverters have improved on efficiency, but are expensive. I bought a 1800W Tripp-Lite unit for $1200 CDN. And it doesn't take long for a pair of 500W quartz lamps to drain 2 deep-cycle marine batteries. It might be better to use a few smaller individual inverters for smaller loads and a couple of heavier duty ones for heavier loads. IE; use the size necessary to get the job done. If you used one huge inverter to power most of your house, it would have to be on constantly and waste a lot of power (they do consume energy even when the load is off). Better yet, you can get almost every electrical device you desire in a 12 or 24 volt version. Why not convert everything to low-voltage (24 being more efficient than 12). You will get a lot more time between recharges over using inverters. PS: I know I didn't really solve any problems here but hope to have imparted a little knowledge for Patrick. Cheers, Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. --new type of Gel Sealed battery
Before we can store electricity in Hydrogen or Compressed air forms outside the lab! There is a new type of Lead-Vitriol gel-sealed battery! Replacing the liquid Sulfur Acid with Colloidal Vitriol Acid. This acid won't form lamination like sulfur acid which causes the cells to close out. Longer life(450 recharges than 300 for Lead Acid) and low self-discharge rate(2% per month vs. 1% per day). Charging and discharging to full capacity faster! Colloidal Acid has good heat dissipation, so no internal short circuit to interrupt power flow! Invented by German, improved in China. Chinese government is promoting this battery to replace Lead Acid Battery all over China. Oxide Battery may start this OEM battery soon! - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 11:30 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. Most newer inverters are PWM sine wave output. Modern MOSFET designs improve efficiency incredibly over less efficient transistor designs. A 500W inverter wasting 20% is quite exaggerated, I have seen actual values from 90-97% A lot of people don't take into account the losses associated with running low-voltage high-current power through a conductor. A 12 volt appliance drawing 20 amps with a loss of .08 ohms in the conductor [size 12 AWG, 50 feet] would have a drop of 1.58 volts - assuming you could get that 20 amps of current [max allowed for 12 gauge wire], you would be wasting 30 watts in your wire. 24 volt systems are much better. Depending on your situation and if the wire already exists in your house, you may be better off using a high-efficiency inverter or inverters that switch on with an increasing load [to reduce idle losses] Larger-gauge wire would also be a lot more expensive for new installations. --- Martin Klingensmith infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] nnytech.net -Original Message- From: John Mullan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:21 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. I have been keeping my on the inverter subject for a while. As a 'reasonably' educated electronics technician (mostly digital) I feel I can comment on this. Most inverters are notorious energy wasters. Energy waste is proportional to energy drawn. For example (not accurate) a 100W inverter wastes 5% while a 500W inverter wastes 20%. Transformers can of course give you a better sine wave. However, 60hz is such a low frequency that you need a huge transformer. Solid state produces the noisier sine wave and depending on the wattage you require, can be very difficult to keep the output devices cool. Many of the new inverters have improved on efficiency, but are expensive. I bought a 1800W Tripp-Lite unit for $1200 CDN. And it doesn't take long for a pair of 500W quartz lamps to drain 2 deep-cycle marine batteries. It might be better to use a few smaller individual inverters for smaller loads and a couple of heavier duty ones for heavier loads. IE; use the size necessary to get the job done. If you used one huge inverter to power most of your house, it would have to be on constantly and waste a lot of power (they do consume energy even when the load is off). Better yet, you can get almost every electrical device you desire in a 12 or 24 volt version. Why not convert everything to low-voltage (24 being more efficient than 12). You will get a lot more time between recharges over using inverters. PS: I know I didn't really solve any problems here but hope to have imparted a little knowledge for Patrick. Cheers, Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
OK. Yes, I did mention that newer inverters were better efficiency. The 'auto on' switching you mention goes with my theory that a few inverters would be a decent idea. The heavier gauge wire for the low-voltage application would depend of course on what your loads are. 24V equipment can be obtained that draw relatively low currents (albiet some will still draw a lot, ie; inductive). Another reason I offered 24V over 12V (P=IE of course). However, I am further educated now by your data on 90-97%. That is pretty good. John -Original Message- From: Martin Klingensmith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 2:31 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. Most newer inverters are PWM sine wave output. Modern MOSFET designs improve efficiency incredibly over less efficient transistor designs. A 500W inverter wasting 20% is quite exaggerated, I have seen actual values from 90-97% A lot of people don't take into account the losses associated with running low-voltage high-current power through a conductor. A 12 volt appliance drawing 20 amps with a loss of .08 ohms in the conductor [size 12 AWG, 50 feet] would have a drop of 1.58 volts - assuming you could get that 20 amps of current [max allowed for 12 gauge wire], you would be wasting 30 watts in your wire. 24 volt systems are much better. Depending on your situation and if the wire already exists in your house, you may be better off using a high-efficiency inverter or inverters that switch on with an increasing load [to reduce idle losses] Larger-gauge wire would also be a lot more expensive for new installations. --- Martin Klingensmith infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] nnytech.net -Original Message- From: John Mullan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:21 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. I have been keeping my on the inverter subject for a while. As a 'reasonably' educated electronics technician (mostly digital) I feel I can comment on this. Most inverters are notorious energy wasters. Energy waste is proportional to energy drawn. For example (not accurate) a 100W inverter wastes 5% while a 500W inverter wastes 20%. Transformers can of course give you a better sine wave. However, 60hz is such a low frequency that you need a huge transformer. Solid state produces the noisier sine wave and depending on the wattage you require, can be very difficult to keep the output devices cool. Many of the new inverters have improved on efficiency, but are expensive. I bought a 1800W Tripp-Lite unit for $1200 CDN. And it doesn't take long for a pair of 500W quartz lamps to drain 2 deep-cycle marine batteries. It might be better to use a few smaller individual inverters for smaller loads and a couple of heavier duty ones for heavier loads. IE; use the size necessary to get the job done. If you used one huge inverter to power most of your house, it would have to be on constantly and waste a lot of power (they do consume energy even when the load is off). Better yet, you can get almost every electrical device you desire in a 12 or 24 volt version. Why not convert everything to low-voltage (24 being more efficient than 12). You will get a lot more time between recharges over using inverters. PS: I know I didn't really solve any problems here but hope to have imparted a little knowledge for Patrick. Cheers, Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
Ever read Don Lancaster's magic sinewaves? He has very low harmonic content. Kirk -Original Message- From: Steve Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 4:44 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. try http://webconx.green-trust.org/inverter.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 1:38 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. Well, I haven't seen any good plans yet, I've been looking for a long time. I can say, however; that you should definitely not try to use this plan: http://www.i4at.org/lib2/inverter.htm It will probably waste more energy than it converts for you. I would like to try to come up with a good plan for a modified sine wave converter. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
A square wave inverter brings up the interesting question of how the comparatively noisy wave form will affect sensitive things. Do you have any knowledge with a square wave inverter versus a sine wave? kirk wrote: Ever read Don Lancaster's magic sinewaves? He has very low harmonic content. Kirk -Original Message- From: Steve Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 4:44 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. try http://webconx.green-trust.org/inverter.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 1:38 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. Well, I haven't seen any good plans yet, I've been looking for a long time. I can say, however; that you should definitely not try to use this plan: http://www.i4at.org/lib2/inverter.htm It will probably waste more energy than it converts for you. I would like to try to come up with a good plan for a modified sine wave converter. -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
RE: Homemade inverters. I haven't read any of the listed references yet, what kind of efficiency are these systems getting? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
Don't use a square wave with a HP laser printer. Probably the other brands too. Don't use square wave with magnetics -- transformers and motors. The higher frequencies manifest as heat. Kirk -Original Message- From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:42 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. A square wave inverter brings up the interesting question of how the comparatively noisy wave form will affect sensitive things. Do you have any knowledge with a square wave inverter versus a sine wave? kirk wrote: Ever read Don Lancaster's magic sinewaves? He has very low harmonic content. Kirk -Original Message- From: Steve Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 4:44 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. try http://webconx.green-trust.org/inverter.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 1:38 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. Well, I haven't seen any good plans yet, I've been looking for a long time. I can say, however; that you should definitely not try to use this plan: http://www.i4at.org/lib2/inverter.htm It will probably waste more energy than it converts for you. I would like to try to come up with a good plan for a modified sine wave converter. -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.441 / Virus Database: 247 - Release Date: 1/9/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
I got pretty excited about plans for a 1200 watt inverter, then I saw that it was square wave, and used a transformer that probably weighs a couple Kg. Switch-mode design comes to mind, but that is a fairly complicated subject that I don't know a lot about. I am thinking about trying a Class-D style design, a pulse-width modulated switcher that doesn't require a large transformer. kirk wrote: Don't use a square wave with a HP laser printer. Probably the other brands too. Don't use square wave with magnetics -- transformers and motors. The higher frequencies manifest as heat. Kirk -Original Message- From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:42 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. A square wave inverter brings up the interesting question of how the comparatively noisy wave form will affect sensitive things. Do you have any knowledge with a square wave inverter versus a sine wave? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
I have been keeping my on the inverter subject for a while. As a 'reasonably' educated electronics technician (mostly digital) I feel I can comment on this. Most inverters are notorious energy wasters. Energy waste is proportional to energy drawn. For example (not accurate) a 100W inverter wastes 5% while a 500W inverter wastes 20%. Transformers can of course give you a better sine wave. However, 60hz is such a low frequency that you need a huge transformer. Solid state produces the noisier sine wave and depending on the wattage you require, can be very difficult to keep the output devices cool. Many of the new inverters have improved on efficiency, but are expensive. I bought a 1800W Tripp-Lite unit for $1200 CDN. And it doesn't take long for a pair of 500W quartz lamps to drain 2 deep-cycle marine batteries. It might be better to use a few smaller individual inverters for smaller loads and a couple of heavier duty ones for heavier loads. IE; use the size necessary to get the job done. If you used one huge inverter to power most of your house, it would have to be on constantly and waste a lot of power (they do consume energy even when the load is off). Better yet, you can get almost every electrical device you desire in a 12 or 24 volt version. Why not convert everything to low-voltage (24 being more efficient than 12). You will get a lot more time between recharges over using inverters. PS: I know I didn't really solve any problems here but hope to have imparted a little knowledge for Patrick. Cheers, -Original Message- From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 2:06 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. I got pretty excited about plans for a 1200 watt inverter, then I saw that it was square wave, and used a transformer that probably weighs a couple Kg. Switch-mode design comes to mind, but that is a fairly complicated subject that I don't know a lot about. I am thinking about trying a Class-D style design, a pulse-width modulated switcher that doesn't require a large transformer. kirk wrote: Don't use a square wave with a HP laser printer. Probably the other brands too. Don't use square wave with magnetics -- transformers and motors. The higher frequencies manifest as heat. Kirk -Original Message- From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:42 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. A square wave inverter brings up the interesting question of how the comparatively noisy wave form will affect sensitive things. Do you have any knowledge with a square wave inverter versus a sine wave? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Homemade inverters.
Howdy all, Can anyone tell me where to find a design for an inverter (12V DC to 120V AC 60Hz) that can be built by someone with reasonably good electrical technician skills? Thanks. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
Go to google.com and type in inverter plans. Good Luck PM -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:20 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. Howdy all, Can anyone tell me where to find a design for an inverter (12V DC to 120V AC 60Hz) that can be built by someone with reasonably good electrical technician skills? Thanks. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: HYPERLINK http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/bi ofuel.html Biofuels list archives: HYPERLINK http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Homemade inverters.
Well, I haven't seen any good plans yet, I've been looking for a long time. I can say, however; that you should definitely not try to use this plan: http://www.i4at.org/lib2/inverter.htm It will probably waste more energy than it converts for you. I would like to try to come up with a good plan for a modified sine wave converter. --- Martin Klingensmith infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] nnytech.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 12:20 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Homemade inverters. Howdy all, Can anyone tell me where to find a design for an inverter (12V DC to 120V AC 60Hz) that can be built by someone with reasonably good electrical technician skills? Thanks. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
