[biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
someone in some SUV thread wrote: You should not have to have liability insurance before you get a vehicle registration you might consider it manditory (I'd buy that) that you have it before you get a drivers license regardless if you own a car or not. td and it triggered this for me: I've just got to jump in here and complain loudly about North Carolina (the state where I've lived the most out of my adult life, and where I got my first drivers license and first 10 (???) cars)- North Carolina has a regulation now on the books that to get a drivers license at all you have to have insurance. To have insurance you have to own a car. No car= no drivers' license. If you get rid of your car and cancel insurance you're supposed to surrender your drivers' license. In most states this is not the case. Ini North Carolina however, if you don't have a car but want a license (and if you live in a rural area with no public transit it sure and don't have a car, having a license is still necessary for things like informal carsharing, car renting, occasional emergency trips in borrowed vehicles, things that in all other states are OK by the insurers- trust me, the one accident I was in (in a friend's car in New Mexico) was covered by the friend's insurance)- anyway if you're car-free but want a license the NC DMV has a standard answer- find someone who'll add you to their car insurance policy. Which is all good and fine if you're a teenager living with parents- a considerably harder thing for all the adult, poor, schmoes I've ever picked up hitchhiking to work- I mean, people don't just put random neighbors/relatives on their policy- it's a huge trust and financial issue (I swear, I felt like NC was pretty hitchhiker-friendly just because so many state residents have at one point or another run afoul of the various driving laws there and know about 'walkin'!). It's a seemingly well-meaning law that made me wonder if the insurance lobby had somehow hijacked the state legislature. I saw some statistics once when I was living in the South. They were in a booklet put out by a weird Mormon (I think) woman who was singlehandedly running a homeless families shelter/food bank/clothing bank/ services nonprofit (a serious labor of love in her case) in North Georgia. After working with the extremely poor families and homeless people for a few years she figured out that the same theme kept coming up in these people's stories: in so many cases, cars started the families' slide into homelessness. She started looking at statistics and found a lot in the state and regional poverty statistics that backed up what she learned in the course of her work. I wish I had a copy of her statistics. The story was typically that rural residents need vehicles to go to jobs (there is effectively no public transportation in most of rural America. The rural South had at one time in history an excellent public transportation system- which was dismantled by the well-documented oil company/tire company buyout and closing down of the tram systems). Wages being what they are in the rural south, people tend to own crappy cars, something expensive breaks, the family can't afford the repair, and the person loses their job. Or people have poor driving records, dont pay their insurance bill, lose their insurance, get stopped for a busted tail-light, and lose their license (very common story). Or drinking and driving and losing of licenses is involved. And all of that leads to losing jobs... or not being able to travel to any kind of well-paying jobs... and not being able to save money to afford the next calamity... and quite often it leads to chronic poverty and sometimes on to homelessness. I've hung out with some exceedingly poor people all over the place, and I've certainly seen the stories behind these statistics myself. Not that I am at all arguing that we shouldn't require mandatory insurance laws or drunken driving laws. I am fully aware that I am piloting a dangerous weapon when I get behind the wheel. But I think a lot of, say, middle-class americans, have no idea how badly car-based culture destroys lives. If places like the rural south could invest more into public transit... arggh. but that's not how our society is structured. mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
Mark, I agree with some of your post but must respectfully disagree with the car-culture and rural poverty in the US argument. On insurance, the issue is who is liable the driver or the car. If the costs were fairly allocated it would fix part of the problem. Gov't. seems to make problems worse whenever they get involved. I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the poverty line. These car, wealthy people, society is the fault arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy that caused all their problems. My view is that the only reason anyone in america is poor is by their own choice. I have heard so many arguments against getting education when I lived in rural areas. you don't need that, book learnin won't make you smarter, got book learning but no common sense, Why you can stay here and work for less than minimum wage, you don't need that college. Having been below the poverty line and having worked my way up to middle class, I have no liberal guilt. I am happy to talk to people about how to resolve this but too many people have bought into the socialist view that the reason they are poor is because someone else took their share of the pie. Personal and individual decisions are a major and possibly the most significant part of this equation. Been there, done that.
RE: [biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
snip I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the poverty line. These car, wealthy people, society is the fault arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy that caused all their problems. I used to work in downtown Denver. -- Seems to me you left. Denver is not rural America. Many people -- or at least their wives-- are not ready to leave all their family behind for urban opportunity. That means the reality of minimum wage. I live in central Montana. Skilled blue collar workers get $7 to $10 an hour. Yet repairs at a dealer are within 10% of LA prices. It is called exploitation and it is not the fault of the man who lives here. The owners of these corporations are USUALLY out of staters. Sort of a variation on ghetto labor exploitation. The bad guys wear 3 piece suits and are pillars of society. I see them as pirates or something out of a Dickens novel. You want to be blind to their greed and manipulation OK but a little compassion for your fellow worker would be a good thing.It's called empathy or compassion. Kirk -Original Message- From: aegent [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and Mark, I agree with some of your post but must respectfully disagree with the car-culture and rural poverty in the US argument. On insurance, the issue is who is liable the driver or the car. If the costs were fairly allocated it would fix part of the problem. Gov't. seems to make problems worse whenever they get involved. I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the poverty line. These car, wealthy people, society is the fault arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy that caused all their problems. My view is that the only reason anyone in america is poor is by their own choice. I have heard so many arguments against getting education when I lived in rural areas. you don't need that, book learnin won't make you smarter, got book learning but no common sense, Why you can stay here and work for less than minimum wage, you don't need that college. Having been below the poverty line and having worked my way up to middle class, I have no liberal guilt. I am happy to talk to people about how to resolve this but too many people have bought into the socialist view that the reason they are poor is because someone else took their share of the pie. Personal and individual decisions are a major and possibly the most significant part of this equation. Been there, done that.
RE: [biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
US In Denial As Poverty Rises by Ed Vulliamy The Guardian November 02, 2002 http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=10ItemID=2575 ... Statistics released last month by the government census bureau show that for the first time in 10 years the number of people caught in the poverty trap has suddenly increased. Unemployment is up from 4.2 per cent in 2000 to 5.7 per cent last year. While the middle class shrinks, the numbers living below the official poverty line of $18,104 a year for a family of four has shot up to 33 million - from 11.3 to 11.7 per cent. That's the first increase since 1992. ... The proportion of children without health cover has increased from 63.8 per cent to 67.1 per cent. The poverty rate for children in the US is worse than in 19 'rich' countries, according to a study by the University of Michigan. ... Hard times á One in 11 families, one in nine Americans, and one in six children are officially poor. á The most affluent fifth of the population received half of all household income last year. The poorest fifth got 3.5 per cent. á The official poverty line is an income of $18,104 pa (£11,570) for a family of four. A single parent of two working full-time for a minimum wage would make $10,712 (£6,846). á 40 per cent of homeless men are veterans. á Up to a fifth of America's food, worth $31bn, goes to waste each year, with 130lb of food per person ending up in landfills. [more] See also: http://www.bread.org/hungerbasics/faq.html U.S. and world hunger facts information - Bread.org - Action, education, research, statistics Bread for the World is a nationwide Christian citizens movement seeking justice for the world's hungry people by lobbying our nation's decision makers. Hunger Basics FAQ Hunger Facts: International Domestic Frequently Asked Questions 1. Is hunger really a problem in the United States? 2. Who is going hungry in the U.S.? 3. Aren't most of the people going to soup kitchens the ones to blame for their situation? 4. If people are willing to work, why are they still at risk of going hungry? 5. How does hunger affect children? 6. What does the global picture look like? 7. How can we prevent starvation, since bad weather and drought are obviously beyond our control? 8. A story of hunger in Bangladesh 9. A story of hunger in Honduras 10. Is it really possible to end hunger in the world? http://www.bread.org/hungerbasics/domestic.html Hunger persists in the U.S. * Thirty-three million people-including 13 million children-live in households that experience hunger or the risk of hunger. This represents one in ten households in the United States (10 percent). 1 * 3.1 percent of U.S. households experience hunger: they frequently skip meals or eat too little, sometimes going without food for a whole day. Nearly 8.5 million people, including 2.9 million children, live in these homes. 1 * 7.3 percent of U.S. households are at risk of hunger: they have lower quality diets or must resort to seeking emergency food because they cannot always afford the food they need. 24.7 million people, including 9.9 million children, live in these homes. 1 * Preschool and school-aged children who experience severe hunger have higher levels of chronic illness, anxiety and depression, and behavior problems than children with no hunger, according to a recent study. 2 People facing hunger are increasingly turning to the Food Stamp Program for assistance in feeding their families. * Following years of decline, participation in the food stamp program has been on the rise over the past two years. In August 2002 (the last month for which data are available) 19.7 million people participated in the food stamp program. March 2002 was the first month since July 1998 in which the number of food stamp participants exceeded 19 million. 3 * While it is not possible to determine what caused the increase in participation from the data available, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities argues it is likely that the majority of the increase can be attributed to the economic downturn. Due to loss of employment and income, more families probably became eligible for the food stamp program. 3 Churches and charities are straining to serve rising requests for food from their pantries and soup kitchens, especially from working people. * The U.S. Conference of Mayors reports that in 2002 requests for emergency food assistance increased an average of 19 percent. The study also found that 48 percent of those requesting emergency food assistance were members of families with children and that 38 percent of adults requesting such assistance were employed. High housing costs, low-paying jobs, unemployment, and the economic downturn led the list of reasons contributing to the rise. 4 * Just over half the cities surveyed in the Mayors' report said they are not able to provide an adequate quantity of food to those in need. And nearly two-thirds of
[biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
kirk, Yep, I did leave but that was not my only option. It was also my choice and my wifes choice. My decisions have largely got me here through hard work (I worked two jobs for many years). I believe that anyone anywhere in the US can be successful if they believe in themselves and work hard for themselves. Hey, if I can do it, anyone can. As to the evils of corporate greed. I often hear workers complain about how shabbily thay are treated but they don't seem to want the bosses job. Nor do they want to quit and start their own company. As to the Dickens novel, try spending a week in a third world country and you will appreciate that most of these arguments in the US are just averice showing its ugly head. Most of our wage slaves and our poor have hot cold running water, electricity, color televisions, microwave ovens, cars, and other luxuries. In Mumbai (Bombay) alone, I was told that there are 2 million people who will never have a roof over their heads, nor can they hope to. I saw them sleeping on the street and sidewalks. I saw working class housing that in the US would be considered a slum. We simly do not have any idea how good we've got it. Maybe we should talk about the evils of socialism and how it makes everyone poor? As to the top dog making big bucks, well until I'm ready to step into his job and take on the headaches, he can have it and I feel no jealousy over his takings. I do however get riled if the takings are not above board and obtained through lying, cheating, and stealing as we seem to be seeing in a very small number of companies. We do not see that across the board as the media would have us believe. I'm just saying that we all have options in the US. We can start our own companies and you will find that many small companies treat people well. You can do it and treat your staff as you see fit. The last company I worked for the President did not make any more than and possibly less than the top paid technical staff (things were tight). I am always finding ppl who complain about the top dog but are not willing to do the work the boss did to get there. I know what it takes, I'm not willing and he/she can have the big bucks. Its not worth it to me, my needs are simple. td SNIP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 03:24, you wrote: Mark, Having been below the poverty line and having worked my way up to middle class, I have no liberal guilt. I am happy to talk to people about how to resolve this but too many people have bought into the socialist view that the reason they are poor is because someone else took their share of the pie. Personal and individual decisions are a major and possibly the most significant part of this equation. Been there, done that. From what I saw, the personal auto is the great enabler of the poor. It allows people to get to jobs that pay well but would be too far to walk to or even bicycle to. Public transit makes a lot of sense in high population density areas but it is not practical in rural areas. Envision a usable public transit system in rural areas. Is this a once a day bus or an hourly bus? How much would it cost? Who would pay for it? Could it even be paid for (i.e. is there enough money anywhere to build this system). td All I can say to your comments on rural public transport is Hogwash! I lived in Sweden in 1985. Their population density is low in country areas, yet there was quite good public transport available in medium sized provincial towns. I worked with people that travelled to work by PT at some centres in Sweden. Sweden is a Socialist led country , so welfare minded - but I disagree that everyone should be responsible for all their own welfare. There has to be Govt assistance to even up the living costs between city country, otherwise the country will be more de-populated. Careful help with indrastructure, sympathetic use of tax laws for disadvantaged areas can help build the prosperity so eventually decrease the reliance on this Govt help. This is one major failing of the current worldwide Govt push for less Govt intervention in local infrastructure. (This has been a real failure in Australia, where the Victorian govt which was previously running the buses in Melbourne at a controllable loss, sold the system to a Private Co, who then 'rationalised' services, lost heaps of money, then asked the Govt to bail them out!) regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
Wow, I can't wait to really respond to this post! holy hogwash, Batman! sorry kids, I'm way, way too tired to do it justice after about 24 hours of moving shop in preparation for the landlord visit to our illegal warehouse living situation (the Visit of the Lord got put off another day after all that stress, so we're all still sitting here biting our nails about whether we're gonna get evicted (we did some seriously illegal building that he hasn't seen yet and there's no way to hide the fact that we;re living in a commercial space). anyway I'll give you a piece of my mind (no it ain't going to be a flame) tomorrow. But in short, oh boy, you're so talking to the wrong person about cars being the personal enabler of the poor !!! Actually, on that note, why is it that if you mention poverty and the dreaded 'society' word (or maybe it was poverty and the dreaded 'culture' word) to some people you can almost automatically expect to start hearing people bring up or allude to your supposed middle class guilt? (he brought up the other s-word, socialism- too!) I'm FROM the extreme poverty I'm talking aobut- urban not rural in my case- but I'm not some college grad idolizing idolizing what some poor redneck in north carolina went through. Anyhow those people were my friends a few years back and I know what I'm talking about there. In my case it's also personal- it's my mother I'm talking about when I go on about car culture and lack of public transportation limiting people's choices- you messed with my momma, dude :) anyway I do know very, very first hand how badly lack of car ownership or driving ability (license or whatever) limits where you can live and how much money you make. Next installment of speech tomorrow. mark by the way I;m still not arguing against insurance, mandatory insurance, or DUI laws, etc. Im not going to be sitting there telling the parent of a kid that just ran out in front of my car that I can't pay for their medical bills. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, aegent [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, I agree with some of your post but must respectfully disagree with the car-culture and rural poverty in the US argument. On insurance, the issue is who is liable the driver or the car. If the costs were fairly allocated it would fix part of the problem. Gov't. seems to make problems worse whenever they get involved. I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the poverty line. These car, wealthy people, society is the fault arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy that caused all their problems. My view is that the only reason anyone in america is poor is by their own choice. I have heard so many arguments against getting education when I lived in rural areas. you don't need that, book learnin won't make you smarter, got book learning but no common sense, Why you can stay here and work for less than minimum wage, you don't need that college. Having been below the poverty line and having worked my way up to middle class, I have no liberal guilt. I am happy to talk to people about how to resolve this but too many people have bought into the socialist view that the reason they are poor is because someone else took their share of the pie. Personal and individual decisions are a major and possibly the most significant part of this equation. Been there, done that. From what I saw, the personal auto is the great enabler of the poor. It allows people to get to jobs that pay well but would be too far to walk to or even bicycle to. Public transit makes a lot of sense in high population density areas but it is not practical in rural areas. Envision a usable public transit system in rural areas. Is this a once a day bus or an hourly bus? How much would it cost? Who would pay for it? Could it even be paid for (i.e. is there enough money anywhere to build this system). I used to work in downtown Denver. When I was there I used the public transit system as it only cost about 10 extra minutes to get to work. Later I contracted further south and now the trip was over two hours each way versus 45 minutes by car. Carving 4 or 5 hours out of a poor persons day is not the way to make them rich or enable them. Public transit has to address the most ridership for the most people. We keep forgetting how sparse that the US population is when compared to Europe or Japan. BTW: There is always the tractor, I've seen ppl traveling by that vehicle and that does not even require a license. td Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL
