Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Hakan, I believe we can reason together, this I like. We may not agree, but we can share our respective definitions of 'democracy.' For a point of reference, the definition I use for 'economics' is the allocation of scarce resources that have alternative uses by a society or community or individual. My definition of 'democracy' is; a form of government by the people, usually through representation. I consider equality of opportunity a basic human right; but not equality of outcomes. --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bruce, Neither Plato nor Aristoles had any experience whatsoever from representative democracy or checks and balances that continuously are being built in to make democracy better. But at what point comes the law of dimishing returns in which in making a better mouse-trap it becomes counter productive to its original intent and purpose? How they can agree with observations of something that they did not see or experienced, is a statement that is at best humorous. Yes they spoke of pure democracy not of representative democracy. But the belief in an enlightened electorate eludes me. Ben Frankin once remarked; ... a Republic madam, if you can hold onto it. Even if it can be said that a Republic is very strongly connected to democracy, we are talking about something else. I do think that Franklin meant a Democratic Republic, but what you want to say is not clear for me. A constitutional republic maintains a framework that is statutory but left vague in its details. A democratic republic is fluid and open to interpretation and the relative point of view or public opinion at the moment. Once normal folks discover that they can vote themselves all sorts of benefits they forget common sense as well as the common good. Corruption infiltrates all kind of systems and is more a sign of the common moral than a necessary attribute to the system of governing. In the archives you will find a link to the list of the least corrupted countries in the world and US is in 18th place, even if I think they will lose some places during and after the Bush administration, we will see. Least corrupted by what measures? I never for a moment would consider the US either just prior to Bush or since to be a model of innocence. As an American I am quite concerned with the turn made in US foreign affairs since the 1930's. For the rest of the following samples, you are talking about majority voting, without checks and balances. Very close to the rudimentary and faltering system of Athens. What we mean with a democracy or democracies, is on national level and a far more legally controlled environment. Legally controlled by whom? Who elected representatives to enact these controls? One of my inmate students gave me the definition of justice to mean; Just Us (or the majority holding the power). We have a net of human rights conventions, that are there and more in the pipe line. This even if US in many cases either did not sign them or have not ratified them, the convention on child labor comes directly in my mind as an example. And how are these enforced in Liberia or Cuba? And what legitimacy does the UN have when it's own member nations often snub their own rules? While I do not support what happened in Iraq; I have to look at the UN record in enforcement. If we (you and I) with information and reflection elected representatives to the UN I could agree that it was representative democracy. If you are interested, you can find many of my posting on the issue in the archives. What I mean is, that I do not want to repeat them every time a new member starts with your kind of opinions and facts. What specifically upset you and the others? I dislike globalist corpratism and UN hypocracy as much as I do US imperialism. By the way, when are you going to present any of your facts? The facts I believe Keith requested have been posted regarding Enron and involvement with the environmentalist community and, the articles outline his intentions as well. Until now, you have managed to avoid any display of factual reasoning. Something that I miss very much is any constructive view from you, if you do not mean that you are the one who will be the ultimate fair dictator. What factual reasoning will satisfy you? Are you open to other points of view? I believe so. I do not take well to labels such as right winger without a definition of such. As I said before, when Keith brought it up, I like very much Churchill's statement, Democracy is the worst possible system, except for all the others. representative democracy is perhaps the best we've come up with - but who votes for the improvements in the system - or, are they foisted on us by elites (be they corporate or socialist). Bruce Hakan Bruce --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, Have a language problem, but I
Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Funny how Plato and Aristole agreed with my observations of democracy. Ben Frankin once remarked; ... a Republic madam, if you can hold onto it. Once normal folks discover that they can vote themselves all sorts of benefits they forget common sense as well as the common good. My parents lived in a retirement community where homes generally cost between $160,000 and 300,000 with all the usual amenities. The community was ruled democratically under a homeowners association. The tyranny inflicted on the residents by those who felt anointed was unreal to witness. By the way, this wasn't a large community, maybe 2,000 homeowners? A widow forced to remove $5,000 worth of landscape rock from her yard because the homeowners association council changed their minds and decided that the rock in question was not the right size. (She had exceeded the 3/4 size to rock 3/4 to 1) ... A couple forced to remove a 10 year old tree because the rules changed when the newly elected council changed. A couple forced to sell their home because their 23 year old daughter and her child (newly divorced) were living with her in a Over 55 community. Hakan, I am not a fan of opinions kind sir; facts and history sway my thought. I have seen democracy in action and find it the most chaotic form of tyranny there is (second only to corportism). Bruce --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, Have a language problem, but I sincerely hope that you do not mean that I in any way want to be identified by his opinions. I am too tired to continue to respond to the kind of stupidity that Bruce displays and too many with him. I am glad that you do. Hakan At 03:37 AM 8/19/2003 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Bruce A strange conception of democracy indeed, that's exercised Hakan and others on the Biofuel list before this. It's something seemingly only ever heard from some Americans, though very vociferously not from others. Anyway, it's just a label, what the hell - it wouldn't work at all if ordinary folks in their daily dealings with each other didn't invariably have a great deal more good sense than their so-called leaders, elected or not, as do their communities, having figured these things out through the many generations and indeed millennia that they've survived. But the further you get away from (above) the sort of communities where people know each other, the less sensible it gets. Which is the very opposite of what you're inferring - that ordinary folks have no sense and cannot be trusted, and that the more they have to do with running things the closer you get to the lowest common denominator and - urk - mob rule. What sheer nonsense. Democracy passes in to despotism. Plato; The Republic, VIII, 562-A The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal. Aristotle It is the besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which the masses of men exhibit their tyranny. James Fenimore Cooper (1789-1851) Un-restrained capitalism is evil; un-restrained corporatism is evin; un-restrained democracy is maddnes! Un-restrained socialism yields centralized everything and the benefits of nothing! My point is, please stop using the word 'democracy' as if it were worthy of any human interest - it's not. This article is an example of un-restrained corporatism using 'democracy' for it's on evil ends. The simplest example of democracy? Two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch. Ho-hum, yes, well. Churchill (no, not a fan, not at all) said democracy is the worst possible system except for all the others. Or something. I'd say that being so ridiculously remiss (or perhaps distracted) as to allow undead corporations to acquire more human rights than humans have, with humans then becoming second-class citizens (serfs, some say), and then allowing these corporations to win (?) an unelection that anywhere else would have been called a coup, but maybe it'd be more accurate to call it a hostile corporate takeover, would definitely be categorised among all the others, down towards the very bottom somewhere. Best wishes Keith --- Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Keith, Lest We Forget . . . Michael Allen Thailand On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:52:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've talked about the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran here several times, and drawn much the same conclusions. I'm glad it's getting a bit more attention now, very timely. Here's the NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953
Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Bruce, You force me to answer you, by the nonsense that you are producing. At 02:24 PM 8/24/2003 -0700, you wrote: Funny how Plato and Aristole agreed with my observations of democracy. Neither Plato nor Aristoles had any experience whatsoever from representative democracy or checks and balances that continuously are being built in to make democracy better. How they can agree with observations of something that they did not see or experienced, is a statement that is at best humorous. Plato was a starch supporter of democracy, but did a 180 degree turn, when Sokrates was sentenced to death. His major difficulty with democracy was the possibility of Lynch rule (Mentioned as description and without any claim that Plato could know of the much later famous American judge). Athens democracy was the first direct democracy, none knew or had any ideas of representative democracy, which is the one practised in the world of today. Ben Frankin once remarked; ... a Republic madam, if you can hold onto it. Even if it can be said that a Republic is very strongly connected to democracy, we are talking about something else. I do think that Franklin meant a Democratic Republic, but what you want to say is not clear for me. Once normal folks discover that they can vote themselves all sorts of benefits they forget common sense as well as the common good. Corruption infiltrates all kind of systems and is more a sign of the common moral than a necessary attribute to the system of governing. In the archives you will find a link to the list of the least corrupted countries in the world and US is in 18th place, even if I think they will lose some places during and after the Bush administration, we will see. For the rest of the following samples, you are talking about majority voting, without checks and balances. Very close to the rudimentary and faltering system of Athens. What we mean with a democracy or democracies, is on national level and a far more legally controlled environment. Some of the samples you are mentioning, would be illegal in many democracies of today. We have a net of human rights conventions, that are there and more in the pipe line. This even if US in many cases either did not sign them or have not ratified them, the convention on child labor comes directly in my mind as an example. My parents lived in a retirement community where homes generally cost between $160,000 and 300,000 with all the usual amenities. The community was ruled democratically under a homeowners association. The tyranny inflicted on the residents by those who felt anointed was unreal to witness. By the way, this wasn't a large community, maybe 2,000 homeowners? A widow forced to remove $5,000 worth of landscape rock from her yard because the homeowners association council changed their minds and decided that the rock in question was not the right size. (She had exceeded the 3/4 size to rock 3/4 to 1) ... A couple forced to remove a 10 year old tree because the rules changed when the newly elected council changed. A couple forced to sell their home because their 23 year old daughter and her child (newly divorced) were living with her in a Over 55 community. Hakan, I am not a fan of opinions kind sir; facts and history sway my thought. I have seen democracy in action and find it the most chaotic form of tyranny there is (second only to corportism). If you are interested, you can find many of my posting on the issue in the archives. What I mean is, that I do not want to repeat them every time a new member starts with your kind of opinions and facts. By the way, when are you going to present any of your facts? Until now, you have managed to avoid any display of factual reasoning. Something that I miss very much is any constructive view from you, if you do not mean that you are the one who will be the ultimate fair dictator. As I said before, when Keith brought it up, I like very much Churchill's statement, Democracy is the worst possible system, except for all the others. Hakan Bruce --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, Have a language problem, but I sincerely hope that you do not mean that I in any way want to be identified by his opinions. I am too tired to continue to respond to the kind of stupidity that Bruce displays and too many with him. I am glad that you do. Hakan At 03:37 AM 8/19/2003 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Bruce A strange conception of democracy indeed, that's exercised Hakan and others on the Biofuel list before this. It's something seemingly only ever heard from some Americans, though very vociferously not from others. Anyway, it's just a label, what the hell - it wouldn't work at all if ordinary folks in their daily dealings with each other didn't invariably have a great deal more good sense than their so-called leaders, elected or not, as do their communities, having figured these things out through the
[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Bruce, You force me to answer you, by the nonsense that you are producing. At 02:24 PM 8/24/2003 -0700, you wrote: Funny how Plato and Aristole agreed with my observations of democracy. Neither Plato nor Aristoles had any experience whatsoever from representative democracy or checks and balances that continuously are being built in to make democracy better. How they can agree with observations of something that they did not see or experienced, is a statement that is at best humorous. Plato was a starch supporter of democracy, but did a 180 degree turn, when Sokrates was sentenced to death. His major difficulty with democracy was the possibility of Lynch rule (Mentioned as description and without any claim that Plato could know of the much later famous American judge). Athens democracy was the first direct democracy, none knew or had any ideas of representative democracy, which is the one practised in the world of today. Ben Frankin once remarked; ... a Republic madam, if you can hold onto it. Even if it can be said that a Republic is very strongly connected to democracy, we are talking about something else. I do think that Franklin meant a Democratic Republic, but what you want to say is not clear for me. Once normal folks discover that they can vote themselves all sorts of benefits they forget common sense as well as the common good. Corruption infiltrates all kind of systems and is more a sign of the common moral than a necessary attribute to the system of governing. In the archives you will find a link to the list of the least corrupted countries in the world and US is in 18th place, even if I think they will lose some places during and after the Bush administration, we will see. For the rest of the following samples, you are talking about majority voting, without checks and balances. Very close to the rudimentary and faltering system of Athens. What we mean with a democracy or democracies, is on national level and a far more legally controlled environment. Some of the samples you are mentioning, would be illegal in many democracies of today. We have a net of human rights conventions, that are there and more in the pipe line. This even if US in many cases either did not sign them or have not ratified them, the convention on child labor comes directly in my mind as an example. My parents lived in a retirement community where homes generally cost between $160,000 and 300,000 with all the usual amenities. The community was ruled democratically under a homeowners association. The tyranny inflicted on the residents by those who felt anointed was unreal to witness. By the way, this wasn't a large community, maybe 2,000 homeowners? A widow forced to remove $5,000 worth of landscape rock from her yard because the homeowners association council changed their minds and decided that the rock in question was not the right size. (She had exceeded the 3/4 size to rock 3/4 to 1) ... A couple forced to remove a 10 year old tree because the rules changed when the newly elected council changed. A couple forced to sell their home because their 23 year old daughter and her child (newly divorced) were living with her in a Over 55 community. Hakan, I am not a fan of opinions kind sir; facts and history sway my thought. I have seen democracy in action and find it the most chaotic form of tyranny there is (second only to corportism). If you are interested, you can find many of my posting on the issue in the archives. What I mean is, that I do not want to repeat them every time a new member starts with your kind of opinions and facts. By the way, when are you going to present any of your facts? Until now, you have managed to avoid any display of factual reasoning. Something that I miss very much is any constructive view from you, if you do not mean that you are the one who will be the ultimate fair dictator. As I said before, when Keith brought it up, I like very much Churchill's statement, Democracy is the worst possible system, except for all the others. Hakan Bruce --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, Have a language problem, but I sincerely hope that you do not mean that I in any way want to be identified by his opinions. I am too tired to continue to respond to the kind of stupidity that Bruce displays and too many with him. I am glad that you do. Hakan At 03:37 AM 8/19/2003 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Bruce A strange conception of democracy indeed, that's exercised Hakan and others on the Biofuel list before this. It's something seemingly only ever heard from some Americans, though very vociferously not from others. Anyway, it's just a label, what the hell - it wouldn't work at all if ordinary folks in their daily dealings with each other didn't invariably have a great deal more good sense than their so-called leaders, elected or not, as do their communities, having figured these things out through the
Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Keith, Have a language problem, but I sincerely hope that you do not mean that I in any way want to be identified by his opinions. I am too tired to continue to respond to the kind of stupidity that Bruce displays and too many with him. I am glad that you do. Hakan At 03:37 AM 8/19/2003 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Bruce A strange conception of democracy indeed, that's exercised Hakan and others on the Biofuel list before this. It's something seemingly only ever heard from some Americans, though very vociferously not from others. Anyway, it's just a label, what the hell - it wouldn't work at all if ordinary folks in their daily dealings with each other didn't invariably have a great deal more good sense than their so-called leaders, elected or not, as do their communities, having figured these things out through the many generations and indeed millennia that they've survived. But the further you get away from (above) the sort of communities where people know each other, the less sensible it gets. Which is the very opposite of what you're inferring - that ordinary folks have no sense and cannot be trusted, and that the more they have to do with running things the closer you get to the lowest common denominator and - urk - mob rule. What sheer nonsense. Democracy passes in to despotism. Plato; The Republic, VIII, 562-A The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal. Aristotle It is the besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which the masses of men exhibit their tyranny. James Fenimore Cooper (1789-1851) Un-restrained capitalism is evil; un-restrained corporatism is evin; un-restrained democracy is maddnes! Un-restrained socialism yields centralized everything and the benefits of nothing! My point is, please stop using the word 'democracy' as if it were worthy of any human interest - it's not. This article is an example of un-restrained corporatism using 'democracy' for it's on evil ends. The simplest example of democracy? Two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch. Ho-hum, yes, well. Churchill (no, not a fan, not at all) said democracy is the worst possible system except for all the others. Or something. I'd say that being so ridiculously remiss (or perhaps distracted) as to allow undead corporations to acquire more human rights than humans have, with humans then becoming second-class citizens (serfs, some say), and then allowing these corporations to win (?) an unelection that anywhere else would have been called a coup, but maybe it'd be more accurate to call it a hostile corporate takeover, would definitely be categorised among all the others, down towards the very bottom somewhere. Best wishes Keith --- Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Keith, Lest We Forget . . . Michael Allen Thailand On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:52:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've talked about the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran here several times, and drawn much the same conclusions. I'm glad it's getting a bit more attention now, very timely. Here's the NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953 Keith http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2003/000158.html We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman Fri, 08 Aug 2003 In yesterday's Washington Post, Condoleeza Rice, the President's National Security Advisor, writes the following: Our task is to work with those in the Middle East who seek progress toward greater democracy, tolerance, prosperity and freedom. As President Bush said in February, 'The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.' Now, if we only had a nickel for every time Bush, or Rice, or Colin Powell, or Paul Wolfowitz or Dick Cheney or Richard Perle or Donald Rumsfeld talked about bringing democracy to the Middle East. Talk, talk, talk. Here's something you can bet on: Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz will not hold a press conference this month to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the U.S.-led coup of the democratically elected leader of Iran -- Mohammed Mossadegh. Rice and Powell won't hold a press conference to celebrate Operation Ajax, the CIA plot that overthrew the Mossadegh. That was 50 years ago this month, in August 1953. That's when Mossadegh was fed up with the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company -- now BP -- pumping Iran's oil and
[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Keith, Have a language problem, but I sincerely hope that you do not mean that I in any way want to be identified by his opinions. I am too tired to continue to respond to the kind of stupidity that Bruce displays and too many with him. I am glad that you do. Hakan At 03:37 AM 8/19/2003 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Bruce A strange conception of democracy indeed, that's exercised Hakan and others on the Biofuel list before this. It's something seemingly only ever heard from some Americans, though very vociferously not from others. Anyway, it's just a label, what the hell - it wouldn't work at all if ordinary folks in their daily dealings with each other didn't invariably have a great deal more good sense than their so-called leaders, elected or not, as do their communities, having figured these things out through the many generations and indeed millennia that they've survived. But the further you get away from (above) the sort of communities where people know each other, the less sensible it gets. Which is the very opposite of what you're inferring - that ordinary folks have no sense and cannot be trusted, and that the more they have to do with running things the closer you get to the lowest common denominator and - urk - mob rule. What sheer nonsense. Democracy passes in to despotism. Plato; The Republic, VIII, 562-A The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal. Aristotle It is the besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which the masses of men exhibit their tyranny. James Fenimore Cooper (1789-1851) Un-restrained capitalism is evil; un-restrained corporatism is evin; un-restrained democracy is maddnes! Un-restrained socialism yields centralized everything and the benefits of nothing! My point is, please stop using the word 'democracy' as if it were worthy of any human interest - it's not. This article is an example of un-restrained corporatism using 'democracy' for it's on evil ends. The simplest example of democracy? Two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch. Ho-hum, yes, well. Churchill (no, not a fan, not at all) said democracy is the worst possible system except for all the others. Or something. I'd say that being so ridiculously remiss (or perhaps distracted) as to allow undead corporations to acquire more human rights than humans have, with humans then becoming second-class citizens (serfs, some say), and then allowing these corporations to win (?) an unelection that anywhere else would have been called a coup, but maybe it'd be more accurate to call it a hostile corporate takeover, would definitely be categorised among all the others, down towards the very bottom somewhere. Best wishes Keith --- Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Keith, Lest We Forget . . . Michael Allen Thailand On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:52:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've talked about the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran here several times, and drawn much the same conclusions. I'm glad it's getting a bit more attention now, very timely. Here's the NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953 Keith http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2003/000158.html We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman Fri, 08 Aug 2003 In yesterday's Washington Post, Condoleeza Rice, the President's National Security Advisor, writes the following: Our task is to work with those in the Middle East who seek progress toward greater democracy, tolerance, prosperity and freedom. As President Bush said in February, 'The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.' Now, if we only had a nickel for every time Bush, or Rice, or Colin Powell, or Paul Wolfowitz or Dick Cheney or Richard Perle or Donald Rumsfeld talked about bringing democracy to the Middle East. Talk, talk, talk. Here's something you can bet on: Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz will not hold a press conference this month to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the U.S.-led coup of the democratically elected leader of Iran -- Mohammed Mossadegh. Rice and Powell won't hold a press conference to celebrate Operation Ajax, the CIA plot that overthrew the Mossadegh. That was 50 years ago this month, in August 1953. That's when Mossadegh was fed up with the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company -- now BP -- pumping Iran's oil and
Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Hello Bruce A strange conception of democracy indeed, that's exercised Hakan and others on the Biofuel list before this. It's something seemingly only ever heard from some Americans, though very vociferously not from others. Anyway, it's just a label, what the hell - it wouldn't work at all if ordinary folks in their daily dealings with each other didn't invariably have a great deal more good sense than their so-called leaders, elected or not, as do their communities, having figured these things out through the many generations and indeed millennia that they've survived. But the further you get away from (above) the sort of communities where people know each other, the less sensible it gets. Which is the very opposite of what you're inferring - that ordinary folks have no sense and cannot be trusted, and that the more they have to do with running things the closer you get to the lowest common denominator and - urk - mob rule. What sheer nonsense. Democracy passes in to despotism. Plato; The Republic, VIII, 562-A The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal. Aristotle It is the besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which the masses of men exhibit their tyranny. James Fenimore Cooper (1789-1851) Un-restrained capitalism is evil; un-restrained corporatism is evin; un-restrained democracy is maddnes! Un-restrained socialism yields centralized everything and the benefits of nothing! My point is, please stop using the word 'democracy' as if it were worthy of any human interest - it's not. This article is an example of un-restrained corporatism using 'democracy' for it's on evil ends. The simplest example of democracy? Two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch. Ho-hum, yes, well. Churchill (no, not a fan, not at all) said democracy is the worst possible system except for all the others. Or something. I'd say that being so ridiculously remiss (or perhaps distracted) as to allow undead corporations to acquire more human rights than humans have, with humans then becoming second-class citizens (serfs, some say), and then allowing these corporations to win (?) an unelection that anywhere else would have been called a coup, but maybe it'd be more accurate to call it a hostile corporate takeover, would definitely be categorised among all the others, down towards the very bottom somewhere. Best wishes Keith --- Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Keith, Lest We Forget . . . Michael Allen Thailand On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:52:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've talked about the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran here several times, and drawn much the same conclusions. I'm glad it's getting a bit more attention now, very timely. Here's the NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953 Keith http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2003/000158.html We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman Fri, 08 Aug 2003 In yesterday's Washington Post, Condoleeza Rice, the President's National Security Advisor, writes the following: Our task is to work with those in the Middle East who seek progress toward greater democracy, tolerance, prosperity and freedom. As President Bush said in February, 'The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.' Now, if we only had a nickel for every time Bush, or Rice, or Colin Powell, or Paul Wolfowitz or Dick Cheney or Richard Perle or Donald Rumsfeld talked about bringing democracy to the Middle East. Talk, talk, talk. Here's something you can bet on: Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz will not hold a press conference this month to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the U.S.-led coup of the democratically elected leader of Iran -- Mohammed Mossadegh. Rice and Powell won't hold a press conference to celebrate Operation Ajax, the CIA plot that overthrew the Mossadegh. That was 50 years ago this month, in August 1953. That's when Mossadegh was fed up with the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company -- now BP -- pumping Iran's oil and shipping the profits back home to the United Kingdom. And Mossadegh said -- hey, this is our oil, I think we'll keep it. And Winston Churchill said -- no you won't. Mossadegh nationalized the company -- the way the British were nationalizing their own vital industries at the time. But what's good for the UK ain't good for Iran. If you fly out of Dulles
Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Democracy passes in to despotism. Plato; The Republic, VIII, 562-A The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal. Aristotle It is the besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which the masses of men exhibit their tyranny. James Fenimore Cooper (1789-1851) Un-restrained capitalism is evil; un-restrained corporatism is evin; un-restrained democracy is maddnes! Un-restrained socialism yields centralized everything and the benefits of nothing! My point is, please stop using the word 'democracy' as if it were worthy of any human interest - it's not. This article is an example of un-restrained corporatism using 'democracy' for it's on evil ends. The simplest example of democracy? Two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch. --- Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Keith, Lest We Forget . . . Michael Allen Thailand On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:52:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've talked about the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran here several times, and drawn much the same conclusions. I'm glad it's getting a bit more attention now, very timely. Here's the NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953 Keith http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2003/000158.html We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman Fri, 08 Aug 2003 In yesterday's Washington Post, Condoleeza Rice, the President's National Security Advisor, writes the following: Our task is to work with those in the Middle East who seek progress toward greater democracy, tolerance, prosperity and freedom. As President Bush said in February, 'The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.' Now, if we only had a nickel for every time Bush, or Rice, or Colin Powell, or Paul Wolfowitz or Dick Cheney or Richard Perle or Donald Rumsfeld talked about bringing democracy to the Middle East. Talk, talk, talk. Here's something you can bet on: Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz will not hold a press conference this month to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the U.S.-led coup of the democratically elected leader of Iran -- Mohammed Mossadegh. Rice and Powell won't hold a press conference to celebrate Operation Ajax, the CIA plot that overthrew the Mossadegh. That was 50 years ago this month, in August 1953. That's when Mossadegh was fed up with the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company -- now BP -- pumping Iran's oil and shipping the profits back home to the United Kingdom. And Mossadegh said -- hey, this is our oil, I think we'll keep it. And Winston Churchill said -- no you won't. Mossadegh nationalized the company -- the way the British were nationalizing their own vital industries at the time. But what's good for the UK ain't good for Iran. If you fly out of Dulles Airport in Virginia, ever wonder what the word Dulles means? It stands for the Dulles family -- Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and his brother, the CIA director, Allen Dulles. They were responsible for the overthrow of the democratically elected leader of Iran. As was President Theodore Roosevelt's grandson, Kermit Roosevelt, the CIA agent who traveled to Iran to pull off the coup. Now why should we be concerned about a coup that happened so far away almost 50 years ago this month? New York Times reporter Stephen Kinzer puts it this way: It is not far-fetched to draw a line from Operation Ajax through the Shah's repressive regime and the Islamic revolution to the fireballs that engulfed the World Trade Center in New York. Kinzer has written a remarkable new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror (Wiley, 2003). In it, he documents step by step, how Roosevelt, the Dulles boys and Norman Schwarzkopf Sr., among a host of others, took down a democratically elected regime in Iran. They had freedom of the press. We shut it down. They had democracy. And we crushed it. Mossadegh was the beacon of hope for the Middle East. If democracy were allowed to take hold in Iran, it probably would have spread throughout the Middle East. We asked Kinzer: what does the overthrow of Mossadegh say about the United States respect for democracy abroad? Imagine today what it must sound like to Iranians to hear American leaders tell them -- 'We want you to have a democracy in Iran, we disapprove of your present government, we wish to help you bring
Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Thanks Keith, Lest We Forget . . . Michael Allen Thailand On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:52:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've talked about the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran here several times, and drawn much the same conclusions. I'm glad it's getting a bit more attention now, very timely. Here's the NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953 Keith http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2003/000158.html We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman Fri, 08 Aug 2003 In yesterday's Washington Post, Condoleeza Rice, the President's National Security Advisor, writes the following: Our task is to work with those in the Middle East who seek progress toward greater democracy, tolerance, prosperity and freedom. As President Bush said in February, 'The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.' Now, if we only had a nickel for every time Bush, or Rice, or Colin Powell, or Paul Wolfowitz or Dick Cheney or Richard Perle or Donald Rumsfeld talked about bringing democracy to the Middle East. Talk, talk, talk. Here's something you can bet on: Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz will not hold a press conference this month to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the U.S.-led coup of the democratically elected leader of Iran -- Mohammed Mossadegh. Rice and Powell won't hold a press conference to celebrate Operation Ajax, the CIA plot that overthrew the Mossadegh. That was 50 years ago this month, in August 1953. That's when Mossadegh was fed up with the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company -- now BP -- pumping Iran's oil and shipping the profits back home to the United Kingdom. And Mossadegh said -- hey, this is our oil, I think we'll keep it. And Winston Churchill said -- no you won't. Mossadegh nationalized the company -- the way the British were nationalizing their own vital industries at the time. But what's good for the UK ain't good for Iran. If you fly out of Dulles Airport in Virginia, ever wonder what the word Dulles means? It stands for the Dulles family -- Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and his brother, the CIA director, Allen Dulles. They were responsible for the overthrow of the democratically elected leader of Iran. As was President Theodore Roosevelt's grandson, Kermit Roosevelt, the CIA agent who traveled to Iran to pull off the coup. Now why should we be concerned about a coup that happened so far away almost 50 years ago this month? New York Times reporter Stephen Kinzer puts it this way: It is not far-fetched to draw a line from Operation Ajax through the Shah's repressive regime and the Islamic revolution to the fireballs that engulfed the World Trade Center in New York. Kinzer has written a remarkable new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror (Wiley, 2003). In it, he documents step by step, how Roosevelt, the Dulles boys and Norman Schwarzkopf Sr., among a host of others, took down a democratically elected regime in Iran. They had freedom of the press. We shut it down. They had democracy. And we crushed it. Mossadegh was the beacon of hope for the Middle East. If democracy were allowed to take hold in Iran, it probably would have spread throughout the Middle East. We asked Kinzer: what does the overthrow of Mossadegh say about the United States respect for democracy abroad? Imagine today what it must sound like to Iranians to hear American leaders tell them -- 'We want you to have a democracy in Iran, we disapprove of your present government, we wish to help you bring democracy to your country.' Naturally, they roll their eyes and say -- We had a democracy once, but you crushed it,' he said. This shows how differently other people perceive us from the way we perceive ourselves. We think of ourselves as paladins of democracy. But actually, in Iran, we destroyed the last democratic regime the country ever had and set them on a road to what has been half a century of dictatorship. After ousting Mossadegh, the United States put in place a brutal Shah who destroyed dissent and tortured the dissenters. And the Shah begat the Islamic revolution. During that Islamic revolution in 1979, Iranians held up Mossadegh's picture, telling the world: we want a democratic regime that resists foreign influence and respects the will of the Iranian people as expressed through democratic institutions. They were never able to achieve that. And this has led many Iranians to react very poignantly to my book, Kaizer told us. One woman sent me an e-mail that
[biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
We've talked about the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran here several times, and drawn much the same conclusions. I'm glad it's getting a bit more attention now, very timely. Here's the NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953 Keith http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2003/000158.html We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman Fri, 08 Aug 2003 In yesterday's Washington Post, Condoleeza Rice, the President's National Security Advisor, writes the following: Our task is to work with those in the Middle East who seek progress toward greater democracy, tolerance, prosperity and freedom. As President Bush said in February, 'The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.' Now, if we only had a nickel for every time Bush, or Rice, or Colin Powell, or Paul Wolfowitz or Dick Cheney or Richard Perle or Donald Rumsfeld talked about bringing democracy to the Middle East. Talk, talk, talk. Here's something you can bet on: Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz will not hold a press conference this month to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the U.S.-led coup of the democratically elected leader of Iran -- Mohammed Mossadegh. Rice and Powell won't hold a press conference to celebrate Operation Ajax, the CIA plot that overthrew the Mossadegh. That was 50 years ago this month, in August 1953. That's when Mossadegh was fed up with the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company -- now BP -- pumping Iran's oil and shipping the profits back home to the United Kingdom. And Mossadegh said -- hey, this is our oil, I think we'll keep it. And Winston Churchill said -- no you won't. Mossadegh nationalized the company -- the way the British were nationalizing their own vital industries at the time. But what's good for the UK ain't good for Iran. If you fly out of Dulles Airport in Virginia, ever wonder what the word Dulles means? It stands for the Dulles family -- Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and his brother, the CIA director, Allen Dulles. They were responsible for the overthrow of the democratically elected leader of Iran. As was President Theodore Roosevelt's grandson, Kermit Roosevelt, the CIA agent who traveled to Iran to pull off the coup. Now why should we be concerned about a coup that happened so far away almost 50 years ago this month? New York Times reporter Stephen Kinzer puts it this way: It is not far-fetched to draw a line from Operation Ajax through the Shah's repressive regime and the Islamic revolution to the fireballs that engulfed the World Trade Center in New York. Kinzer has written a remarkable new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror (Wiley, 2003). In it, he documents step by step, how Roosevelt, the Dulles boys and Norman Schwarzkopf Sr., among a host of others, took down a democratically elected regime in Iran. They had freedom of the press. We shut it down. They had democracy. And we crushed it. Mossadegh was the beacon of hope for the Middle East. If democracy were allowed to take hold in Iran, it probably would have spread throughout the Middle East. We asked Kinzer: what does the overthrow of Mossadegh say about the United States respect for democracy abroad? Imagine today what it must sound like to Iranians to hear American leaders tell them -- 'We want you to have a democracy in Iran, we disapprove of your present government, we wish to help you bring democracy to your country.' Naturally, they roll their eyes and say -- We had a democracy once, but you crushed it,' he said. This shows how differently other people perceive us from the way we perceive ourselves. We think of ourselves as paladins of democracy. But actually, in Iran, we destroyed the last democratic regime the country ever had and set them on a road to what has been half a century of dictatorship. After ousting Mossadegh, the United States put in place a brutal Shah who destroyed dissent and tortured the dissenters. And the Shah begat the Islamic revolution. During that Islamic revolution in 1979, Iranians held up Mossadegh's picture, telling the world: we want a democratic regime that resists foreign influence and respects the will of the Iranian people as expressed through democratic institutions. They were never able to achieve that. And this has led many Iranians to react very poignantly to my book, Kaizer told us. One woman sent me an e-mail that said: 'I was in tears when I finished your book because it made me think of all we lost and all we could have had.' Of course, the overthrow of Mossadegh was only one of the first U.S. coups of democratically elected
