Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
i guess you could use an e100-powered generator to work the engine/fuel heater. (sorry, couldn't resist the sarcasm) you're right, though, extreme conditions and/or remote locations might require a different approach. anyway, i don't think anyone was suggesting that we abolish all ethanol-based fuels but e100. rather, we were discussing the feasability of e100 up north of the gulf of méjico (or wherever). -chris b. In a message dated 6/23/05 11:31:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >> While you may have your finger on something important here, I don't >> see why an electric fuel preheater and high pressure multi port fuel >> injection couldn't solve the cold weather vaporization issue >> completely. > >Unfortunately, those of us who live and work in cold climates do not >always have line power available ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
Can't speak to consumer use, but yes, at least in racing, that is exactly why E85 is used. Putting out a pit fire, or worse a flaming crew member, when you can't see the flame is a rather difficult task. Also, I suspect it makes taxation and permitting issues much much easier ATF-wise, as 15% gasoline makes one heck of an adulturant with regard to human consumption. jh Greg Harbican wrote: I seem to recall reading somewhere, that part of the problem of using "pure" alcohol, was a safety issue, with lack of a highly visible flame when it burns.According to the article was that the addition of aproximitly 15% gasoline made the mix burn with a flame that was visible in full daylight. This went along with what I recall from chemistry class in jr high school were the alcohol burners burned with a pale blue flame that was sometimes hard to see under the lights. Greg H. - Original Message - From: "RobT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 07:02 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort < SNIP > I would think that even with port fuel injection this effect may manifest itself in cold weather conditions. Probably why you generally see E85 max in the US. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- John E Hayes, M.S. Instructor, Dietetics Program, DIET 203 / DIET 215 Doctoral Student, Nutritional Sciences University of Connecticut - 326 Koons Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] / 860.486.0007 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
While you may have your finger on something important here, I don't > see why an electric fuel preheater and high pressure multi port fuel > injection couldn't solve the cold weather vaporization issue > completely. Unfortunately, those of us who live and work in cold climates do not always have line power available to heat up our engines. My diesel Ford is a very marginal starter when temperatures get below -30 F. The workaround is to go out and start the thing and get it warmed up every few hours when I can't plug it in. This is not very efficient or economical. In a gas (alcohol) burner, it is even less efficient. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
I seem to recall reading somewhere, that part of the problem of using "pure" alcohol, was a safety issue, with lack of a highly visible flame when it burns.According to the article was that the addition of aproximitly 15% gasoline made the mix burn with a flame that was visible in full daylight. This went along with what I recall from chemistry class in jr high school were the alcohol burners burned with a pale blue flame that was sometimes hard to see under the lights. Greg H. - Original Message - From: "RobT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 07:02 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort < SNIP > I would think that even with port fuel injection this effect may manifest itself in cold weather conditions. Probably why you generally see E85 max in the US. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
i suppose E85 would eliminate that problem, as suggested by another poster (was that you?). or a flex-/dual-fuel arrangement, such as in wvo-powered cars. a small reserve of E85 could be used in the first few minutes get things warmed up, and then switch over to pure ethanol. it also occurs to me, couldn't the fuel line and injector(s) be heated? bringing these components to F140 would rewuire less energy/time, and--please correct me if i'm wrong, because my knowledge of these things doesn't go very deep--the timing of injection/compression/combustion is so fast i'd expect the lower temp inside the cylinder (takes longer to heat due to the greater mass of the block) would have a negligible effect. hmm, interesting stuff. . . . -chris Rob wrote: >Since it happens at around 140F, you'd have to keep the engine pretty warm >to avoid the sudden vaporization. I don't recall it being a serious >driveability problem, but the short exhaust emissions spike due to excess >fuel might lead to problems meeting the latest and future US/EURO emissions >standards. > >-- RobT ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
Since it happens at around 140F, you'd have to keep the engine pretty warm to avoid the sudden vaporization. I don't recall it being a serious driveability problem, but the short exhaust emissions spike due to excess fuel might lead to problems meeting the latest and future US/EURO emissions standards. -- RobT -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:16 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort couldn't this be readily solved by using a block warmer, or glow plugs? -chris In a message dated 6/23/05 8:49:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << The end result is a liquid puddle of alcohol in the intake manifold of a cold engine that all vaporizes suddenly as the engine warms up past a certain point. >> ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
RobT wrote: The end result is a liquid puddle of alcohol in the intake manifold of a cold engine that all vaporizes suddenly as the engine warms up past a certain point. Difficult to calibrate for, and you end up with rich engine conditions, stumbling, and high emissions. I would think that even with port fuel injection this effect may manifest itself in cold weather conditions. Probably why you generally see E85 max in the US. While you may have your finger on something important here, I don't see why an electric fuel preheater and high pressure multi port fuel injection couldn't solve the cold weather vaporization issue completely. I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to this kind of thing, and I believe the U.S. government doesn't want to see people drinking fuel, so the politicians mandate E85 as a means of making ethanol unpalatable for human consumption. This also makes it difficult for the "average" backyard distiller to brew his own automobile fuel. Getting that last little bit of water out of the ethanol is rather energy intensive. Thus, we have a political bone thrown to the commercial ethanol lobby while keeping the corporate oil lobby happy that consumers still have to buy gasoline at their stations. See how cynical I am? robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782> Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
> RobT wrote: > I worked as an engineer for the Ford / VW Joint Venture in Brazil about 10 > years ago, on the production cars running on pure alcohol (well, not really > pure -- about 96% ethanol / 4% water and junk). > > The cheap cars at the time ran single-point, throttle body injector systems. > Even in warm weather, this really pointed to a big difference between > ethanol and gasoline. Ethanol vaporizes at a single temperature (around > 140F, IIRC) while gasoline contains a range of fractions that vaporize along > a curve of temperature, say from 120F to 300F or so. > > The end result is a liquid puddle of alcohol in the intake manifold of a > cold engine that all vaporizes suddenly as the engine warms up past a > certain point. Difficult to calibrate for, and you end up with rich engine > conditions, stumbling, and high emissions. I would think that even with > port fuel injection this effect may manifest itself in cold weather > conditions. Probably why you generally see E85 max in the US. > > -- Rob > Northern Michigan I remember when many of us would plugin our tank or engine core heaters in our gasoline carburetor or diesel vehicles during the subfreezing winters to warm the engine (coolant) to assist engine ignition which was helpful. It sounds as if there were someway of warming things up there would be less problems. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
couldn't this be readily solved by using a block warmer, or glow plugs? -chris In a message dated 6/23/05 8:49:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << The end result is a liquid puddle of alcohol in the intake manifold of a cold engine that all vaporizes suddenly as the engine warms up past a certain point. >> ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
I worked as an engineer for the Ford / VW Joint Venture in Brazil about 10 years ago, on the production cars running on pure alcohol (well, not really pure -- about 96% ethanol / 4% water and junk). The cheap cars at the time ran single-point, throttle body injector systems. Even in warm weather, this really pointed to a big difference between ethanol and gasoline. Ethanol vaporizes at a single temperature (around 140F, IIRC) while gasoline contains a range of fractions that vaporize along a curve of temperature, say from 120F to 300F or so. The end result is a liquid puddle of alcohol in the intake manifold of a cold engine that all vaporizes suddenly as the engine warms up past a certain point. Difficult to calibrate for, and you end up with rich engine conditions, stumbling, and high emissions. I would think that even with port fuel injection this effect may manifest itself in cold weather conditions. Probably why you generally see E85 max in the US. -- Rob Northern Michigan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:11 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort Assuming that the problem in cool conditions is fuel vapourization and mixture formation, I expect that inlet injection (fairly common now) would work, and that if it didn't, direct injection would work. I don't know how ethanol and injection pumps get along, but I think that if there is a problem it could be beaten. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, DERICK GIORCHINO wrote: > I have recently done some reading on the ethanol as a fuel of choice. But it > seems that those in tropical climates have an advantage. It seems that gas > engines run better and start in a hotter climate. And those of us that live > in a varying climate could have some difficulty with ethanol in the colder > time of year. Do you think I am wrong? What is you opinion. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
> DERICK GIORCHINO wrote: > What you sagest is harmful to the bush family and most of the politicians > that are so heavily evolved in dino products. > You know what will happen if you have the weasel watching the hen house. > I have recently done some reading on the ethanol as a fuel of choice. But it > seems that those in tropical climates have an advantage. It seems that gas > engines run better and start in a hotter climate. And those of us that live > in a varying climate could have some difficulty with ethanol in the colder > time of year. Do you think I am wrong? What is you opinion. Up here in Wisconsin USA I went to the Midwest Renewable Energy Fair and the physicist and engineers put a smile on my face and didn't seem to object during the presentation and discussions regarding ethanol use and plugin hybrids. There was a Ford Escape Hybrid with the flex-fuel green leaf emblem at the fairgrounds which had me look twice and I'm still not sure if it was a E85 hybrid. I should of asked the local Ford dealer. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
Assuming that the problem in cool conditions is fuel vapourization and mixture formation, I expect that inlet injection (fairly common now) would work, and that if it didn't, direct injection would work. I don't know how ethanol and injection pumps get along, but I think that if there is a problem it could be beaten. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, DERICK GIORCHINO wrote: > I have recently done some reading on the ethanol as a fuel of choice. But it > seems that those in tropical climates have an advantage. It seems that gas > engines run better and start in a hotter climate. And those of us that live > in a varying climate could have some difficulty with ethanol in the colder > time of year. Do you think I am wrong? What is you opinion. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort
What you sagest is harmful to the bush family and most of the politicians that are so heavily evolved in dino products. You know what will happen if you have the weasel watching the hen house. I have recently done some reading on the ethanol as a fuel of choice. But it seems that those in tropical climates have an advantage. It seems that gas engines run better and start in a hotter climate. And those of us that live in a varying climate could have some difficulty with ethanol in the colder time of year. Do you think I am wrong? What is you opinion. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MH Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:33 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Brazil's ethanol effort Brazil's ethanol effort helping lead to oil self-sufficiency By Marla Dickerson Los Angeles Times June 17, 2005 http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002339093_brazilfuel17.ht ml Top producers 2004 ethanol production (in billions of gallons) 4.0 Brazil 3.4 USA 1.0 China 0.5 India 0.2 France Source: F.O.Licht, Renewable Fuels Assn. SÃO PAULO, Brazil While Americans fume at high gasoline prices, Carolina Rossini is the essence of cool at the pump. Like tens of thousands of her fellow citizens, she is running her zippy red Fiat on pure ethanol extracted from Brazilian sugar cane. On a recent morning in Brazil's largest city, the clear liquid was selling for less than half the price of gasoline, a sweet deal for the 26-year-old lawyer. "You save money and you don't pollute as much," said Rossini, who paid about $18 to fill her nearly empty tank. "And it's a good thing that the product is made here." Three decades after the first oil shock rocked its economy, Brazil has nearly shaken its dependence on foreign oil. More vulnerable than even the United States when the 1973 Middle East oil embargo sent gas prices soaring, Brazil vowed to kick its import habit. Now the country that once relied on outsiders to supply 80 percent of its crude is projected to be self-sufficient within a few years. Developing its own oil reserves was crucial to Brazil's long-term strategy. Its domestic petroleum production has increased sevenfold since 1980. But the Western Hemisphere's second-largest economy also has embraced renewable energy with a vengeance. Today about 40 percent of all the fuel that Brazilians pump into their vehicles is ethanol, known in Brazil as alcohol, compared with about 3 percent in the United States. No other nation is using ethanol on such a scale. The change wasn't easy or cheap. But 30 years later, Brazil is reaping the return on its investment in energy security while the United States writes checks for $50-a-barrel foreign oil. Much of Brazil's ethanol usage stems from a government mandate requiring all gasoline to contain 25 percent alcohol. Vehicles that ran solely on ethanol fell out of favor in Brazil in the 1990s because of an alcohol shortage that pushed drivers back to gas-powered cars. But thanks to a new generation of vehicles that can run on gasoline, ethanol or any combination of those two fuels, more motorists such as Rossini are filling up with 100 percent alcohol again to beat high gas prices. Economic benefits The exploding popularity of these "flex-fuel" vehicles is reverberating across Brazil's farming sector. Private investors are channeling billions of dollars into sugar and alcohol production, creating much-needed jobs in the countryside. Environmentalists support the expansion of this clean, renewable fuel that has helped improve air quality in Brazil's cities. Consumers are tickled to have a choice at the filling station. Officials from other nations are flocking to Brazil to examine its methods. Most will find Brazil's sugar-fuel strategy impossible to replicate. Few countries possess the acreage and climate needed to produce sugar cane in gargantuan quantities, much less the infrastructure to get it to the pump. Still, some Brazilians say their government's commitment to ditching imports and to jump-starting homegrown energy industries were the real keys to Brazil's success. "It's a combination of strong public policy and the free market," said Mauricio Tolmasquim, president of a federal energy-research agency based in Rio de Janeiro. "That's the Brazilian secret." Brazil's fortunes have been tied to sugar since the Portuguese conquerors found that their tropical colony boasted ideal conditions for cultivating the tall, grassy plant. Brazilians produce and eat more cane sugar than any people on the planet, so the notion of using it to power their vehicles was a natural. After all, Henry Ford once viewed ethanol, which can be made from corn, barley and other crops, as a strong contender to fuel the Model T. "A matter of life and death" Like much of the rest of the world, Brazil guzzled imported crude until
