RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:02 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD Hello James >In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly >suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a >10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the >field since I first met him. What are thermal stability problems? Sorry, I did not follow up the remark with any questions. However in the past (10 years ago?) when he and I were discussing fuels the term meant the fuel was unable to release all of its chemical power when stored at various differing temperatures. Or so I understood when he explained. Don't forget biodiesel also has 20 years' experience, or more, and many millions of on-road miles behind it, along with tons of research, and not just B10. Best Keith >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:47 PM >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > >- Original Message - >From: Doug Memering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm >Subject: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > > > > > Any of which can be replaced on an as needed basis. Terry's > > mechanic> > should be a little more specific with him, rather than > > issuing a > > > > sweeping and perhaps unsupported statement. > > > > Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer > > at Cummins > > Inc, and work in Fuel System Development. > > Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% > > Biodiesel.There are several concerns the company has with higher > > ratio blends. There > > are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are > > mostlycommercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them > > any of which an > > individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what > > they put > > into their tank. > > > > First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some > > caveats.While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are > > considerablyimproved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will > > increase and the higher the > > biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the > > increase will > > not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal > > limit, but B20 > > and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the > > box". Since > > the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the > > emissions of the > > engines instead of the users the company must maintain a strict policy > > against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the > > regulations. > > Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, > > therefore the > > higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the > > engine.Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially > > overpowered so the driver > > may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will > > become more > > noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, > > especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you it > > wouldlikely not be bothered unless you are street racing or > > pulling a large > > (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a > > company Cummins > > is in the position that if the sell a 305 Hp engine and the > > customers tend > > to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put > > in the > > tank. > > > > The third and more serious concern for us homegrown biodieselers, > > in my > > opinion, is water. Most tanks collect water, many vehicles are > > equippedwith water separation filters to protect the fuel system > > components. The > > problem is the biodiesel has a higher affinity for water than > > petrol diesel, > > so the biodiesel is going to carry the water out of the tank. > > Furthermore,the water separators that are normally used will NOT > > extract the water from > > biodiesel so the water gets carried into the fuel system. Most > > modern fuel > > systems are very sensitive to water. The engine will run > > initially but the > > internal fuel system components will quickly corrode which will > > lead to a > > fuel system failure, and usually an ex
RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
Hello James -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:02 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD Hello James >In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly >suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a >10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the >field since I first met him. What are thermal stability problems? Sorry, I did not follow up the remark with any questions. However in the past (10 years ago?) when he and I were discussing fuels the term meant the fuel was unable to release all of its chemical power when stored at various differing temperatures. Or so I understood when he explained. I don't think there's any such problem. Jan pointed out what thermal stability means. See: http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-July/001536.html [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD http://snipurl.com/gdyo Best wishes Keith Don't forget biodiesel also has 20 years' experience, or more, and many millions of on-road miles behind it, along with tons of research, and not just B10. Best Keith >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:47 PM >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > >- Original Message - >From: Doug Memering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm >Subject: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > > > > > Any of which can be replaced on an as needed basis. Terry's > > mechanic> > should be a little more specific with him, rather than > > issuing a > > > > sweeping and perhaps unsupported statement. > > > > Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer > > at Cummins > > Inc, and work in Fuel System Development. > > Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% > > Biodiesel.There are several concerns the company has with higher > > ratio blends. There > > are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are > > mostlycommercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them > > any of which an > > individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what > > they put > > into their tank. > > > > First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some > > caveats.While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are > > considerablyimproved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will > > increase and the higher the > > biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the > > increase will > > not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal > > limit, but B20 > > and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the > > box". Since > > the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the > > emissions of the > > engines instead of the users the company must maintain a strict policy > > against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the > > regulations. > > Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, > > therefore the > > higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the > > engine.Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially > > overpowered so the driver > > may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will > > become more > > noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, > > especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you it > > wouldlikely not be bothered unless you are street racing or > > pulling a large > > (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a > > company Cummins > > is in the position that if the sell a 305 Hp engine and the > > customers tend > > to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put > > in the > > tank. > > > > The third and more serious concern for us homegrown biodieselers, > > in my > > opinion, is water. Most tanks collect water, many vehicles are > > equippedwith water separation filters to protect the fuel system > > components. The > > problem is the biodiesel has a higher affinity for water than > > petrol diesel, > > so the biodiesel is going to carry the water out of the tank. > > Furthermore,the water separators that are normally used will NOT > > extract the water from > > biodiesel so the water gets carr
Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
No way. I run my hot rod Golf on only B100 w/ a tiny drop of PowerService and it has TONS of power. Chris Lloyd wrote: is it the assertion, then, that running b100 would yield a 40% loss in power? < I'm not sure what tractor engines were used but research in South Africa found only a 10% drop in power when changing from diesel to 100% sunflower oil. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
> is it the assertion, then, that running b100 would yield a 40% loss in power? < I'm not sure what tractor engines were used but research in South Africa found only a 10% drop in power when changing from diesel to 100% sunflower oil. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 19/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
Thanx Mike!!! I have had a few responses to my concern and it is safe to safe that I think that I just had a case of stage fright. I was really convinced that B100 in my Peugeot would do it more good than harm; then, this thread went a little bit too deep and I began to doubt a little bit. No worries - I'm back on-line. Greetings from Holland Arden On Jul 19, 2005 07:42 PM, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Arden, > > I've been running the hell out of my 2002 Golf on both homebrew B100 and > pump B100 and it runs better than ever. > You won't hurt your motor with B100. > > > Arden B. Norder wrote: > > >Reading this is beginning to make me nervous. I have been researching > >biodiesel > >production and considering building around biodiesel and glycerin. > > > >I have only one question (mainly because I was planning to run B100): When > >can/should I run B100 without blowing up my engine or meltin my fuel lines or > >gumming up the fuel pump and injectors. > > > >I am totally in love with my Peugeot HDi diesel - I don't want to end its' > >life > >prematurely. HELP!!! > > > >Greetings, > >Arden > > > >On Jul 19, 2005 01:49 AM, James G. Branaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > >>In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly > >>suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a > >>10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the > >>field since I first met him. > >> > >> > >> > >>-Original Message- > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:47 PM > >>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > >> > >> > >> > >>- Original Message - > >>From: Doug Memering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm > >>Subject: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > >> > >> > >> > >>>>>Any of which can be replaced on an as needed basis. Terry's > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>mechanic> > should be a little more specific with him, rather than > >>>issuing a > >>> > >>> > >>>>>sweeping and perhaps unsupported statement. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer > >>>at Cummins > >>>Inc, and work in Fuel System Development. > >>>Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% > >>>Biodiesel.There are several concerns the company has with higher > >>>ratio blends. There > >>>are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are > >>>mostlycommercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them > >>>any of which an > >>>individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what > >>>they put > >>>into their tank. > >>> > >>>First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some > >>>caveats.While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are > >>>considerablyimproved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will > >>>increase and the higher the > >>>biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the > >>>increase will > >>>not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal > >>>limit, but B20 > >>>and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the > >>>box". Since > >>>the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the > >>>emissions of the > >>>engines instead of the users the company must maintain a strict policy > >>>against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the > >>>regulations. > >>>Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, > >>>therefore the > >>>higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the > >>>engine.Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially > >>>overpowered so the driver > >>>may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will > >>>become more > >>>noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, > &g
Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
is it the assertion, then, that running b100 would yield a 40% loss in power? In a message dated 7/16/05 8:22:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, therefore the higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the engine. Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially overpowered so the driver may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will become more noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you it would likely not be bothered unless you are street racing or pulling a large (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a company Cummins is in the position that if the sell a 305 Hp engine and the customers tend to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put in the tank. >> regards, -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
Hi Arden, I've been running the hell out of my 2002 Golf on both homebrew B100 and pump B100 and it runs better than ever. You won't hurt your motor with B100. Arden B. Norder wrote: Reading this is beginning to make me nervous. I have been researching biodiesel production and considering building around biodiesel and glycerin. I have only one question (mainly because I was planning to run B100): When can/should I run B100 without blowing up my engine or meltin my fuel lines or gumming up the fuel pump and injectors. I am totally in love with my Peugeot HDi diesel - I don't want to end its' life prematurely. HELP!!! Greetings, Arden On Jul 19, 2005 01:49 AM, James G. Branaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a 10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the field since I first met him. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:47 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD - Original Message - From: Doug Memering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm Subject: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD Any of which can be replaced on an as needed basis. Terry's mechanic> > should be a little more specific with him, rather than issuing a sweeping and perhaps unsupported statement. Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer at Cummins Inc, and work in Fuel System Development. Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% Biodiesel.There are several concerns the company has with higher ratio blends. There are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are mostlycommercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them any of which an individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what they put into their tank. First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some caveats.While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are considerablyimproved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will increase and the higher the biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the increase will not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal limit, but B20 and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the box". Since the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the emissions of the engines instead of the users the company must maintain a strict policy against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the regulations. Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, therefore the higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the engine.Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially overpowered so the driver may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will become more noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you it wouldlikely not be bothered unless you are street racing or pulling a large (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a company Cummins is in the position that if the sell a 305 Hp engine and the customers tend to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put in the tank. The third and more serious concern for us homegrown biodieselers, in my opinion, is water. Most tanks collect water, many vehicles are equippedwith water separation filters to protect the fuel system components. The problem is the biodiesel has a higher affinity for water than petrol diesel, so the biodiesel is going to carry the water out of the tank. Furthermore,the water separators that are normally used will NOT extract the water from biodiesel so the water gets carried into the fuel system. Most modern fuel systems are very sensitive to water. The engine will run initially but the internal fuel system components will quickly corrode which will lead to a fuel system failure, and usually an expensive one. The company is also concerned about the quality of the biodiesel coming on the market. They have a wide variety from some very high quality to some very poor quality and currently there are no recognized quality standardthat the commercial producers are going by. There are other concerns with blending biodiesel with the coming Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). It has a few challenges to overcome but I will not go into the details here. With all that said, my personal observation (not the view of Cummins) is that if you pay attention to what you are putting in your tank qaulity wise. You make sure that it is dry. Then you should not have any problems with the fuel sy
Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
Hi Jan, Arden The thermal stability problems with biodiesel mainly occurs when the biodiesel consists from highly unsaturated fatty acids. When mixing it with DINO, the problem should disappear, because a good diesel stock should be treated with anti-oxidating agents. These agents can be added to the biodiesel directly, of course. Oh, right, oxidation and polymerisation, which the US is largely in denial about. He might have a point of it's soy biodiesel. We've had a lot of discussion about it here. See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg46511.html [Biofuel] Stirring and aeration - was: re: Stir vs Pump Processing Make it well, stir-wash it, don't use bubblewashing or bubble-drying, use the fuel quickly, no problem. Higher IV oils are a problem. Biodiesel made from these oils is less of a problem than SVO but it's still a problem. Best wishes Keith Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: "Arden B. Norder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:38 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > Reading this is beginning to make me nervous. I have been researching biodiesel > production and considering building around biodiesel and glycerin. > > I have only one question (mainly because I was planning to run B100): When > can/should I run B100 without blowing up my engine or meltin my fuel lines or > gumming up the fuel pump and injectors. > > I am totally in love with my Peugeot HDi diesel - I don't want to end its' life > prematurely. HELP!!! > > Greetings, > Arden > > On Jul 19, 2005 01:49 AM, James G. Branaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly > > suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a > > 10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the > > field since I first met him. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
Relax, Arden. Reading this is beginning to make me nervous. I have been researching biodiesel production and considering building around biodiesel and glycerin. I have only one question (mainly because I was planning to run B100): When can/should I run B100 without blowing up my engine or meltin my fuel lines or gumming up the fuel pump and injectors. Any time, all the time. Check this out: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html Biodiesel and your vehicle Read the whole thing. As for this discussion about Cummins diesels, your Peugeot HDi is not a Cummins, and a Cummins is not a Peugeot HDi either. This is essentially an American discussion, and you're in Europe. The US is far behind Europe in all matters biodiesel, 15 years behind in some ways. The user base in the US is tiny compared with the 35-40% of cars that are diesels in Europe, i's only 1% in the US. Biodiesel is sold at thousands of pumps in Europe, B100 biodiesel, not the B20 that most of the few biodiesel pumps in the US provide. These concerns about Cummins and biodiesel are not concerns in Europe. First, they're not talking about homebrewed biodiesel but about the commercial-grade stuff made by the biodiesel industry in the US. Look at what the "Biodiesel and your vehicle" page says about the quality of US commercial biodiesel. The sub-standard biodiesel recalled by World Energy had passed a laboratory standards test. World Energy then sent another sample to a different laboratory and it failed the test. I asked World Energy twice to explain how the first lab had passed the stuff and I didn't get a reply. Draw your own conclusions. Anyway, any homebrewer would have known it was sub-standard without any need for a laboratory. In the other case, the company producing the sub-standard fuel went on doing it, and not only that, the US National Biodiesel Board took delegates to its annual biodiesel conference on tours of the company's plant to demonstrate a model operation. When a homebrewer at the conference mentioned the bad fuel she was told not to "rock the boat". So the first question you'd ask about these opinions of Cummins and biodiesel is, "What biodiesel, exactly?" "Commercial-grade" is no good answer. They use B20 in the US, the industry is opposed to B100 use, and when there's only 20% biodiesel, the other 80% of petroleum diesel will hide a lot of sins in the biodiesel if it's badly made, sins which will emerge soon enough if you use that same biodiesel for B100. Rob Del Bueno of Vegenergy said this: "Over the past two years I have seen the quality of this fuel vary greatly. Funny thing about the 'commercially manufactured' biodiesel... One of the big arguments against backyard biodiesel (from industry folks) is quality, yet every batch that I have made, and every batch I have seen by a homebrew biodiesel maker has been much better than the 'fuel' I am reselling. Individuals with small-scale setups seem to really care, take their time, and craft their fuel... after all, most are using it in their own cars, not selling to the boiler fuel market." What if, instead, we substituted well-made homebrewed biodiesel? No suspended water in it, for one thing. No stray glycerine either to mess up the viscosity and worse, as there was in the sub-standard commercial stuff. No problem, IMNSHO. Also they're talking about a particular Cummins model that is particularly sensitive, unlike your Peugeot, unlike our Toyota TownAce, which ran on homebrewed B100 for more than two years before we switched to an SVO system recently, unlike many, many thousands of diesel cars, many of them owned by list members here. Note what Doug said: > > I am brewing my own biodiesel and running it in my 94 Cummins 5.9L > > dieseland I intend to eventually run on straight biodiesel. I > > know the risks and > > will watch things carefully. Just relax, go ahead and do it, just do it right, it's easy, your beloved Peugeot HDi will totally love it, and totally love you too. (I'm not being sarcastic, I know very well from personal experience that a person can love a Peugeot!) Best wishes Keith I am totally in love with my Peugeot HDi diesel - I don't want to end its' life prematurely. HELP!!! Greetings, Arden On Jul 19, 2005 01:49 AM, James G. Branaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly > suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a > 10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the > field since I first met him. > > > > -Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:47
RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
Hello James In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a 10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the field since I first met him. What are thermal stability problems? Don't forget biodiesel also has 20 years' experience, or more, and many millions of on-road miles behind it, along with tons of research, and not just B10. Best Keith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:47 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD - Original Message - From: Doug Memering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm Subject: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > > Any of which can be replaced on an as needed basis. Terry's > mechanic> > should be a little more specific with him, rather than > issuing a > > > sweeping and perhaps unsupported statement. > > Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer > at Cummins > Inc, and work in Fuel System Development. > Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% > Biodiesel.There are several concerns the company has with higher > ratio blends. There > are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are > mostlycommercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them > any of which an > individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what > they put > into their tank. > > First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some > caveats.While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are > considerablyimproved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will > increase and the higher the > biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the > increase will > not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal > limit, but B20 > and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the > box". Since > the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the > emissions of the > engines instead of the users the company must maintain a strict policy > against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the > regulations. > Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, > therefore the > higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the > engine.Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially > overpowered so the driver > may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will > become more > noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, > especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you it > wouldlikely not be bothered unless you are street racing or > pulling a large > (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a > company Cummins > is in the position that if the sell a 305 Hp engine and the > customers tend > to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put > in the > tank. > > The third and more serious concern for us homegrown biodieselers, > in my > opinion, is water. Most tanks collect water, many vehicles are > equippedwith water separation filters to protect the fuel system > components. The > problem is the biodiesel has a higher affinity for water than > petrol diesel, > so the biodiesel is going to carry the water out of the tank. > Furthermore,the water separators that are normally used will NOT > extract the water from > biodiesel so the water gets carried into the fuel system. Most > modern fuel > systems are very sensitive to water. The engine will run > initially but the > internal fuel system components will quickly corrode which will > lead to a > fuel system failure, and usually an expensive one. > > The company is also concerned about the quality of the biodiesel > coming on > the market. They have a wide variety from some very high quality > to some > very poor quality and currently there are no recognized quality > standardthat the commercial producers are going by. > > There are other concerns with blending biodiesel with the coming > Ultra Low > Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). It has a few challenges to overcome but I > will not go > into the details here. > > With all that said, my personal observation (not the view of > Cummins) is > that if you pay attention to what you are putting in your tank > qaulity wise. > You make sure that it is dry. Then you should not have any > problems with > the fuel system of the age mentioned. The timing does not need to be > changed in order for the engine run, however you will be producing &
Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
The thermal stability problems with biodiesel mainly occurs when the biodiesel consists from highly unsaturated fatty acids. When mixing it with DINO, the problem should disappear, because a good diesel stock should be treated with anti-oxidating agents. These agents can be added to the biodiesel directly, of course. Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: "Arden B. Norder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:38 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > Reading this is beginning to make me nervous. I have been researching biodiesel > production and considering building around biodiesel and glycerin. > > I have only one question (mainly because I was planning to run B100): When > can/should I run B100 without blowing up my engine or meltin my fuel lines or > gumming up the fuel pump and injectors. > > I am totally in love with my Peugeot HDi diesel - I don't want to end its' life > prematurely. HELP!!! > > Greetings, > Arden > > On Jul 19, 2005 01:49 AM, James G. Branaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly > > suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a > > 10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the > > field since I first met him. > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:47 PM > > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Doug Memering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm > > Subject: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > > > > > > > > Any of which can be replaced on an as needed basis. Terry's > > > mechanic> > should be a little more specific with him, rather than > > > issuing a > > > > > sweeping and perhaps unsupported statement. > > > > > > Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer > > > at Cummins > > > Inc, and work in Fuel System Development. > > > Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% > > > Biodiesel.There are several concerns the company has with higher > > > ratio blends. There > > > are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are > > > mostlycommercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them > > > any of which an > > > individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what > > > they put > > > into their tank. > > > > > > First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some > > > caveats.While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are > > > considerablyimproved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will > > > increase and the higher the > > > biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the > > > increase will > > > not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal > > > limit, but B20 > > > and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the > > > box". Since > > > the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the > > > emissions of the > > > engines instead of the users the company must maintain a strict policy > > > against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the > > > regulations. > > > Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, > > > therefore the > > > higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the > > > engine.Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially > > > overpowered so the driver > > > may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will > > > become more > > > noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, > > > especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you it > > > wouldlikely not be bothered unless you are street racing or > > > pulling a large > > > (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a > > > company Cummins > > > is in the position that if the sell a 305 Hp engine and the > > > customers tend > > > to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put > > > in the > > > tank. > > > > > > The t
RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
Reading this is beginning to make me nervous. I have been researching biodiesel production and considering building around biodiesel and glycerin. I have only one question (mainly because I was planning to run B100): When can/should I run B100 without blowing up my engine or meltin my fuel lines or gumming up the fuel pump and injectors. I am totally in love with my Peugeot HDi diesel - I don't want to end its' life prematurely. HELP!!! Greetings, Arden On Jul 19, 2005 01:49 AM, James G. Branaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly > suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a > 10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the > field since I first met him. > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:47 PM > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > > - Original Message - > From: Doug Memering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm > Subject: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > > > > > Any of which can be replaced on an as needed basis. Terry's > > mechanic> > should be a little more specific with him, rather than > > issuing a > > > > sweeping and perhaps unsupported statement. > > > > Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer > > at Cummins > > Inc, and work in Fuel System Development. > > Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% > > Biodiesel.There are several concerns the company has with higher > > ratio blends. There > > are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are > > mostlycommercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them > > any of which an > > individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what > > they put > > into their tank. > > > > First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some > > caveats.While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are > > considerablyimproved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will > > increase and the higher the > > biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the > > increase will > > not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal > > limit, but B20 > > and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the > > box". Since > > the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the > > emissions of the > > engines instead of the users the company must maintain a strict policy > > against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the > > regulations. > > Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, > > therefore the > > higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the > > engine.Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially > > overpowered so the driver > > may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will > > become more > > noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, > > especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you it > > wouldlikely not be bothered unless you are street racing or > > pulling a large > > (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a > > company Cummins > > is in the position that if the sell a 305 Hp engine and the > > customers tend > > to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put > > in the > > tank. > > > > The third and more serious concern for us homegrown biodieselers, > > in my > > opinion, is water. Most tanks collect water, many vehicles are > > equippedwith water separation filters to protect the fuel system > > components. The > > problem is the biodiesel has a higher affinity for water than > > petrol diesel, > > so the biodiesel is going to carry the water out of the tank. > > Furthermore,the water separators that are normally used will NOT > > extract the water from > > biodiesel so the water gets carried into the fuel system. Most > > modern fuel > > systems are very sensitive to water. The engine will run > > initially but the > > internal fuel system components will quickly corrode which will > > lead to a > > fuel system failure, and usually an expensive one. > > > > The company is also concerned about the quality of the biodiesel > > coming on
RE: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
In one of my many conversations with a fuels specialist, he strongly suggested that BD has some thermal stability problems when used in over a 10% mix with Petro. He has the degree and over 20 years experience in the field since I first met him. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:47 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD - Original Message - From: Doug Memering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm Subject: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > > Any of which can be replaced on an as needed basis. Terry's > mechanic> > should be a little more specific with him, rather than > issuing a > > > sweeping and perhaps unsupported statement. > > Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer > at Cummins > Inc, and work in Fuel System Development. > Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% > Biodiesel.There are several concerns the company has with higher > ratio blends. There > are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are > mostlycommercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them > any of which an > individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what > they put > into their tank. > > First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some > caveats.While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are > considerablyimproved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will > increase and the higher the > biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the > increase will > not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal > limit, but B20 > and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the > box". Since > the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the > emissions of the > engines instead of the users the company must maintain a strict policy > against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the > regulations. > Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, > therefore the > higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the > engine.Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially > overpowered so the driver > may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will > become more > noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, > especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you it > wouldlikely not be bothered unless you are street racing or > pulling a large > (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a > company Cummins > is in the position that if the sell a 305 Hp engine and the > customers tend > to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put > in the > tank. > > The third and more serious concern for us homegrown biodieselers, > in my > opinion, is water. Most tanks collect water, many vehicles are > equippedwith water separation filters to protect the fuel system > components. The > problem is the biodiesel has a higher affinity for water than > petrol diesel, > so the biodiesel is going to carry the water out of the tank. > Furthermore,the water separators that are normally used will NOT > extract the water from > biodiesel so the water gets carried into the fuel system. Most > modern fuel > systems are very sensitive to water. The engine will run > initially but the > internal fuel system components will quickly corrode which will > lead to a > fuel system failure, and usually an expensive one. > > The company is also concerned about the quality of the biodiesel > coming on > the market. They have a wide variety from some very high quality > to some > very poor quality and currently there are no recognized quality > standardthat the commercial producers are going by. > > There are other concerns with blending biodiesel with the coming > Ultra Low > Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). It has a few challenges to overcome but I > will not go > into the details here. > > With all that said, my personal observation (not the view of > Cummins) is > that if you pay attention to what you are putting in your tank > qaulity wise. > You make sure that it is dry. Then you should not have any > problems with > the fuel system of the age mentioned. The timing does not need to be > changed in order for the engine run, however you will be producing > more NOx > than you were with petrodiesel. You will likely see degradation > of non > metal lines in the fuel system and you have to replace all of them > at some > p
Re: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD
- Original Message - From: Doug Memering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:40 pm Subject: [Biofuel] Re: CUMMINS B5.9TD > > > > Any of which can be replaced on an as needed basis. Terry's > mechanic> > should be a little more specific with him, rather than > issuing a > > > sweeping and perhaps unsupported statement. > > Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic, as I am an engineer > at Cummins > Inc, and work in Fuel System Development. > Officially, Cummins supports Biodiesel blends up to B5 or 5% > Biodiesel.There are several concerns the company has with higher > ratio blends. There > are three major areas of concerns that the company has. These are > mostlycommercial concerns which will be evident as I explain them > any of which an > individual could deal with by being aware and careful about what > they put > into their tank. > > First, while biodiesel is touted as being cleaner, there are some > caveats.While the particulate emissions (the ones you can see) are > considerablyimproved with biodiesel, the NOx emmission will > increase and the higher the > biodiesel ratio the higher the NOx increases. Up to B5 the > increase will > not likely move the engine's NOx emissions beyond the federal > limit, but B20 > and higher will likely move the NOx emissions "outside of the > box". Since > the US tends to hold the manufacturers repsonsible for the > emissions of the > engines instead of the users the company must maintain a strict policy > against recommending or accepting fuels that will violate the > regulations. > Second, biodiesel has a lower heating value than Petro diesel, > therefore the > higher the biodiesel blend the lower the available power from the > engine.Most vehicles with B5.9 diesel are substantially > overpowered so the driver > may not notice the 2% loss of power with a B5 blend, but it will > become more > noticeable as the ratio is increased. As I said many of the vehicles, > especially pickups are overpowered for the job they do, so you it > wouldlikely not be bothered unless you are street racing or > pulling a large > (heavy) trailer through the mountains. But once again as a > company Cummins > is in the position that if the sell a 305 Hp engine and the > customers tend > to expect to get 305 Hp regardless of what fuel they chose to put > in the > tank. > > The third and more serious concern for us homegrown biodieselers, > in my > opinion, is water. Most tanks collect water, many vehicles are > equippedwith water separation filters to protect the fuel system > components. The > problem is the biodiesel has a higher affinity for water than > petrol diesel, > so the biodiesel is going to carry the water out of the tank. > Furthermore,the water separators that are normally used will NOT > extract the water from > biodiesel so the water gets carried into the fuel system. Most > modern fuel > systems are very sensitive to water. The engine will run > initially but the > internal fuel system components will quickly corrode which will > lead to a > fuel system failure, and usually an expensive one. > > The company is also concerned about the quality of the biodiesel > coming on > the market. They have a wide variety from some very high quality > to some > very poor quality and currently there are no recognized quality > standardthat the commercial producers are going by. > > There are other concerns with blending biodiesel with the coming > Ultra Low > Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). It has a few challenges to overcome but I > will not go > into the details here. > > With all that said, my personal observation (not the view of > Cummins) is > that if you pay attention to what you are putting in your tank > qaulity wise. > You make sure that it is dry. Then you should not have any > problems with > the fuel system of the age mentioned. The timing does not need to be > changed in order for the engine run, however you will be producing > more NOx > than you were with petrodiesel. You will likely see degradation > of non > metal lines in the fuel system and you have to replace all of them > at some > point. Return lines are probably the first ones you will notice. > I believe > most vehicles run steel lines for the supply lines from the tank > to the > engine. > > I am brewing my own biodiesel and running it in my 94 Cummins 5.9L > dieseland I intend to eventually run on straight biodiesel. I > know the risks and > will watch things carefully. > > I hope this helps > > Doug > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > Dear D
