Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
hi, how much lye did you use? perhaps you didnt get a complete reaction.. Marc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
--- malcolm maclure [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fox, What rate of salt do you use? how many washes containing salt do you use per batch. I only ask because I can get WVO / animal fats mixed, by the barrel but shyed away from it because of soaps gelling probs in winter. Malcolm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of fox mulder Sent: 31 January 2005 09:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification --- anibal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello! thanks again for the wonderful support.! i just did a batch of Bio from a thick paste and solid fats from fast food restaurant.. the reaction came out well , with a little layer of soap on the top is this because the oil has water? or was it a bit too much catalyst? anywyays i scooped the soap on top , and proceeded to water wash the bio when i add water the once clear biodiesel becomes like an emulsification...an d you can't se through it.. how can solve this ? would boiling the biodiesel solve anything? has anybody thrown some not very clear biodiesel in an engine..? what do ou recommend i do with my 10 liter batch of not clear biodiesel...? best and thank you very much!!! anibal hi anibal emulsification occurs because of soap- formation. especially if you have a lot of animal fat. add salt to the water i. e. wash with salty water. this should form scum with the soap and deposit. fox Dear malcome soluble metal salt will do. sodium chloride is available easily. calcium hydrogen carbonate would be the best one as this would make the water hard. Hard water stops emulsification. also, add 10% phosphoric acid (10 drops per litre of oil) to neutralize alkalinity. fox___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
--- anibal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello! thanks again for the wonderful support.! i just did a batch of Bio from a thick paste and solid fats from fast food restaurant.. the reaction came out well , with a little layer of soap on the top is this because the oil has water? or was it a bit too much catalyst? anywyays i scooped the soap on top , and proceeded to water wash the bio when i add water the once clear biodiesel becomes like an emulsification...an d you can't se through it.. how can solve this ? would boiling the biodiesel solve anything? has anybody thrown some not very clear biodiesel in an engine..? what do ou recommend i do with my 10 liter batch of not clear biodiesel...? best and thank you very much!!! anibal ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ hi anibal emulsification occurs because of soap- formation. especially if you have a lot of animal fat. add salt to the water i. e. wash with salty water. this should form scum with the soap and deposit. fox ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
Fox, What rate of salt do you use? how many washes containing salt do you use per batch. I only ask because I can get WVO / animal fats mixed, by the barrel but shyed away from it because of soaps gelling probs in winter. Malcolm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of fox mulder Sent: 31 January 2005 09:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification --- anibal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello! thanks again for the wonderful support.! i just did a batch of Bio from a thick paste and solid fats from fast food restaurant.. the reaction came out well , with a little layer of soap on the top is this because the oil has water? or was it a bit too much catalyst? anywyays i scooped the soap on top , and proceeded to water wash the bio when i add water the once clear biodiesel becomes like an emulsification...an d you can't se through it.. how can solve this ? would boiling the biodiesel solve anything? has anybody thrown some not very clear biodiesel in an engine..? what do ou recommend i do with my 10 liter batch of not clear biodiesel...? best and thank you very much!!! anibal hi anibal emulsification occurs because of soap- formation. especially if you have a lot of animal fat. add salt to the water i. e. wash with salty water. this should form scum with the soap and deposit. fox ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
problems by finding a better feedstock. is there no better oil than this thick paste of solid fats available? anibal wrote: hello! thanks again for the wonderful support.! i just did a batch of Bio from a thick paste and solid fats from fast food restaurant.. the reaction came out well , with a little layer of soap on the top is this because the oil has water? or was it a bit too much catalyst? anywyays i scooped the soap on top , and proceeded to water wash the bio when i add water the once clear biodiesel becomes like an emulsification...an d you can't se through it.. how can solve this ? would boiling the biodiesel solve anything? has anybody thrown some not very clear biodiesel in an engine..? what do ou recommend i do with my 10 liter batch of not clear biodiesel...? best and thank you very much!!! anibal ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
Comments below... --- anibal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello! thanks again for the wonderful support.! i just did a batch of Bio from a thick paste and solid fats from fast food restaurant.. the reaction came out well , with a little layer of soap on the top is this because the oil has water? or was it a bit too much catalyst? Anibal, please tell us just what you did. Did you check the oil for water content? Why do you suspect it might have been too much catalyst? Did you titrate the oil? What was the result? Did you double-check it? It really pays off being extra-careful with titration, as well as spending a bit of money of need be on accurate measuring equipment: flasks, syringes, pipettes, accurate scales, and a good pH meter if you can afford it (better than phenolphthalein - and DON'T use phenol red!). How much lye did you use? Was it pure and fresh? How much methanol did you use? How did you mix the methanol and the lye? Did you heat the oil? To what temperature? How did you agitate it? For how long? Did you maintain the temperature throughout the process? How long did you let it settle? anywyays i scooped the soap on top , and proceeded to water wash the bio How did wash it? Please describe the process. How much water? What washing process? How many washes? How long per wash? How long did you let it settle between washes? when i add water the once clear biodiesel becomes like an emulsification...an d you can't se through it.. Depending what you mean, that could be normal. Look at the three photographs of the wash process on this page (about a third of the way down): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html Bubble washing The top picture is after the first wash, but when you first add the water it goes very murky. The more you wash it, the less murky it gets. This was bubblewashing, but you should be able to wash it with a stirrer with the same results. On the other hand, if there's too much soap or the process didn't go far enough, leaving unreacted materials in the mix, then the biodiesel and the water can emulsify and won't separate, or not easily or quickly - it looks a bit like chicken soup or dirty mayonnaise. There are ways of solving this problem, but the emulsified batch is just a symptom of the real problem, which is that your processing needs improving. If you're making too much soap, then look to improving your titration, make sure you're mixing the methoxide properly, and not losing too much (or any) methanol through evaporation. Unreacted materials: di-glycerides and mono-glycerides are emulsifiers. If this is causing the problem then your process has not gone far enough towards completion. To check it, you can reprocess some of the batch. See the quality tests here for details: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality On the other hand, below you talk of not very clear biodiesel, which is not the same as an emulsion. If you've washed it, the final wash-water was clear and with the same pH as your tap-water, but the biodiesel is not clear, letting it settle for a week or so will clarify it. If you're in a hurry, heat it gently to 45 deg C and let it cool. If it turns cloudy again when it cools, heat it again. Let it cool in a covered container with a vent - the cloudiness is water content, and the heating evaporates it rather than settling it to the bottom. By the way, 10 litres is a lot for a first test batch. Try making one-litre batches, or even half a litre. how can solve this ? would boiling the biodiesel solve anything? has anybody thrown some not very clear biodiesel in an engine..? what do ou recommend i do with my 10 liter batch of not clear biodiesel...? best and thank you very much!!! anibal hi anibal emulsification occurs because of soap- formation. Not only soap - soap and/or an incomplete reaction. especially if you have a lot of animal fat. add salt to the water i. e. wash with salty water. this should form scum with the soap and deposit. Salt is one method, there are others. First I'd leave it for a day or two, often a bit of time will break an emulsion (if it really is an emulsion Anibal has). If it doesn't separate, try heating it - no need to boil it as Anibal suggests, and don't use a very fierce heat source or you'll risk exploding steam bubbles, gently does it. Holding the temperature at about 50 deg C for a few minutes might do it, if not carefully take the temperature higher. Stirring it by hand will prevent steam bubbles exploding. Or try adding some acid - while stirring, add about 5 ml of strong vinegar per litre of wash water used. If it doesn't separate, add a little more. Or use salt, sodium chloride, ordinary table salt. Add it little by little while stirring until the emulsion separates. Then continue washing (as with all these methods). Leaving it to settle, adding acid or salt
RE: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
Fox, What rate of salt do you use? how many washes containing salt do you use per batch. Salt is an emergency measure, to save a troublesome batch, but it shouldn't be necessary. The real answer is to improve the processing. I only ask because I can get WVO / animal fats mixed, by the barrel but shyed away from it because of soaps gelling probs in winter. It's fine for summer fuel. Though I suppose it depends what you mean by summer... Has global warming progressed far enough for the UK to have something vaguely resembling a summer these days? LOL! Still, the advice about this on our Biodiesel in winter page originates from the UK: To make WVO biodiesel for winter, heat the oil first, then cool it to near 0 deg C (32 deg F); the saturated fats will crystallise out and sink to the bottom. Use the clear oil off the top to make winter biodiesel, keep the stuff at the bottom for summer. But even this winterized biodiesel still won't go much below -5 deg C (23 deg F) without gelling. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_winter.html Biodiesel in winter: Journey to Forever Lower than -5 deg C, there are other solutions,wh you can findon that page. Regards Keith Malcolm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of fox mulder Sent: 31 January 2005 09:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification --- anibal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello! thanks again for the wonderful support.! i just did a batch of Bio from a thick paste and solid fats from fast food restaurant.. the reaction came out well , with a little layer of soap on the top is this because the oil has water? or was it a bit too much catalyst? anywyays i scooped the soap on top , and proceeded to water wash the bio when i add water the once clear biodiesel becomes like an emulsification...an d you can't se through it.. how can solve this ? would boiling the biodiesel solve anything? has anybody thrown some not very clear biodiesel in an engine..? what do ou recommend i do with my 10 liter batch of not clear biodiesel...? best and thank you very much!!! anibal hi anibal emulsification occurs because of soap- formation. especially if you have a lot of animal fat. add salt to the water i. e. wash with salty water. this should form scum with the soap and deposit. fox ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
Let's not start getting in the habit of deriding our animal friends because their tri-glycerides are of a little more substance than their veggie counterparts. Nine out of ten animals would agree, that is if they were still alive to talk about it, that saturated fats and oils actually make superior biodiesel with a higher energy content than that which comes from lesser saturated feedstock. The flaw exists with humans who are unable or unwilling to adapt to the resources around them and start laying blame against everything but their own inabilities. In Anibal's particular situation, the suggestion would first be to warm up her wash mess and see if it's just a matter of solids and not emulsification. If it proves to be the latter, the suggestion is to work on refining the production method, as the safe bet is that the reaction never reached completion, either for lack of time, temperature, agitation, catalyst, alcohol or any combination these. And if redress in those departments fail, the suggestion is to double check the FFA content of the feedstock. If it's a high FFA content, start moving to an acid/base process to eliminate the problems high ratios can cause..., such as reaction incompletions, high soap content and proneness to emulsification in washes if insufficient settling times aren't permitted. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification regardless of the cause of your emulsion you could probably solve your problems by finding a better feedstock. is there no better oil than this thick paste of solid fats available? anibal wrote: hello! thanks again for the wonderful support.! i just did a batch of Bio from a thick paste and solid fats from fast food restaurant.. the reaction came out well , with a little layer of soap on the top is this because the oil has water? or was it a bit too much catalyst? anywyays i scooped the soap on top , and proceeded to water wash the bio when i add water the once clear biodiesel becomes like an emulsification...an d you can't se through it.. how can solve this ? would boiling the biodiesel solve anything? has anybody thrown some not very clear biodiesel in an engine..? what do ou recommend i do with my 10 liter batch of not clear biodiesel...? best and thank you very much!!! anibal ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
- Original Message - From: anibal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:08 PM Subject: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification hello! thanks again for the wonderful support.! i just did a batch of Bio from a thick paste and solid fats from fast food restaurant.. the reaction came out well , with a little layer of soap on the top is this because the oil has water? or was it a bit too much catalyst? Maybe incomplete reaction? anywyays i scooped the soap on top , and proceeded to water wash the bio when i add water the once clear biodiesel becomes like an emulsification...an d you can't se through it.. Emulsion is when you get three layers. The murky bio on top, milky water on the bottom and a chicken soup looking stuff in between. Are you saying that the bio went murky ? If so this is normal, you put water in it. Let it settle out for a few hours and then if you only have two layers, bio on top and cloudy water on the bottom with nothing in between wash it again and again until the water at the bottom is clear, remove the bio from the water, let it set over night and see if any more water has sttled out . Use it :-) Luc how can solve this ? would boiling the biodiesel solve anything? has anybody thrown some not very clear biodiesel in an engine..? what do ou recommend i do with my 10 liter batch of not clear biodiesel...? best and thank you very much!!! anibal ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
