RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield
Hi Chris Hi Kieth, What mean is if you use the value from the site plus excess of 60%, you will get 194.43 mL. Compare that value to what I derived from Sap (182.2), we see that we have almost the same amount except that I didn't go through calculating molecular mass, etc. Okay, got it now... trouble is the Sap value then sort of decides the excess amount for you. I'd rather deal with it as a separate matter as it should be varied according to circumstances (unlike the stoichiometric amount). I use very little excess amounting to only 1.8% to make an even 200mL. Sorry for my English. I hope I made it clear this time. Your English is just fine, Chris - it's entirely better than my Tagalog! :-) Regards Keith Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:50 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hi Chris It's good to hear from you, Kieth. :-) Bit erratic these days, sorry... I use very little excess in my trials. Using the value from journey to forever of 121.52 mL for soy and add 60% excess, we 194.43 mL. I don't think our values differ at all. You got it right using experimentally derived amout of excess. I just went around the guess work. Chris I don't understand this - are we using different terms for the same thing (or the same terms for different things?) ? In the above para, I'd put 121.52 mL for soy as the stoichiometric quantity, with 60% the excess required to push the process towards completion - the stoichiometric quantity is constant, the excess varies somewhat, depending, as that page explains: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html How much methanol? But you say: I use very little excess in my trials. You mean excess beyond the 60% excess? It doesn't take that much excess to drive the reaction forward. The excess only comes in the later part of the reaction to increase concentration and the chances of collission. Let me rephrase my statement. 200mL MeOH/Liter is a good all around ratio to start with for any type of oil, fresh or used. Biodiesel is a good solvent for oil so you should be able to wash it even if conversion is not complete. Maybe not if you're left with a whole bunch of unconverted monoglycerides to emulsify it. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html Bubblewashing 101: Girl Mark - Emulsification - Emulsion Explained I actually use 250mL for coconut and palm. Sap determine MeOH volume for coco is 247.4 and palm is 145. It was discussion here some time ago on how much methanol is required for coconut oil that led to Christian and I doing the How much methanol? page - what was quite clear was that the advice that x amount of methanol achieved 98% conversion but y amount only 95% or less was obviously simplistic: it depends on the oil. Regards Keith Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:47 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hello Chris 18-19% stoichiometric quantity for soy and corn? That's 6-7% more than other estimates, and would mean that none of us is using sufficient methanol excess - which we are doing, judging from the results and the tests we subject the product to. We wouldn't be getting near completion if these figures are accurate, we wouldn't be able to wash the stuff for one thing, it'd just emulsify. No washing problems here though, nor any other problems. You said earlier that 200ml/l is a good all-round ratio, but on your figures here for soy, that would leave you with only 1.8% excess, nowhere near enough. And how would that square with your figures for coconut and palm oil? Or am I reading you wrong? Best Keith Soybean Oil SAP No: 185-195(mean: 190) Vol. MeOH: 182.2 mL + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 70.78 mL Vol. BD Yield: 1112.28 mL Corn Oil SAP No: 196 Vol. MeOH: 187.54 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 78.00 Coconut Oil SAP No: 258 Vol. MeOH: 247.4 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 102.9 Palm Oil SAP No: ~247 Vol. MeOH: 245 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 101.94 Assuming complete conversion and no loss, yields should be the above values. I have found them consistent with my experiments. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 12:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: How much methanol should you use? SAP values give how many moles of fatty acid are in fresh oil. Even if the oil is used, the moles of fatty acid should remain the same, except, of coarse, for the addition of FREE fatty acid from the food cooked. You just need a little more to add to the Sap
RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield
Hi Kieth, What mean is if you use the value from the site plus excess of 60%, you will get 194.43 mL. Compare that value to what I derived from Sap (182.2), we see that we have almost the same amount except that I didn't go through calculating molecular mass, etc. I use very little excess amounting to only 1.8% to make an even 200mL. Sorry for my English. I hope I made it clear this time. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:50 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hi Chris It's good to hear from you, Kieth. :-) Bit erratic these days, sorry... I use very little excess in my trials. Using the value from journey to forever of 121.52 mL for soy and add 60% excess, we 194.43 mL. I don't think our values differ at all. You got it right using experimentally derived amout of excess. I just went around the guess work. Chris I don't understand this - are we using different terms for the same thing (or the same terms for different things?) ? In the above para, I'd put 121.52 mL for soy as the stoichiometric quantity, with 60% the excess required to push the process towards completion - the stoichiometric quantity is constant, the excess varies somewhat, depending, as that page explains: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html How much methanol? But you say: I use very little excess in my trials. You mean excess beyond the 60% excess? It doesn't take that much excess to drive the reaction forward. The excess only comes in the later part of the reaction to increase concentration and the chances of collission. Let me rephrase my statement. 200mL MeOH/Liter is a good all around ratio to start with for any type of oil, fresh or used. Biodiesel is a good solvent for oil so you should be able to wash it even if conversion is not complete. Maybe not if you're left with a whole bunch of unconverted monoglycerides to emulsify it. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html Bubblewashing 101: Girl Mark - Emulsification - Emulsion Explained I actually use 250mL for coconut and palm. Sap determine MeOH volume for coco is 247.4 and palm is 145. It was discussion here some time ago on how much methanol is required for coconut oil that led to Christian and I doing the How much methanol? page - what was quite clear was that the advice that x amount of methanol achieved 98% conversion but y amount only 95% or less was obviously simplistic: it depends on the oil. Regards Keith Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:47 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hello Chris 18-19% stoichiometric quantity for soy and corn? That's 6-7% more than other estimates, and would mean that none of us is using sufficient methanol excess - which we are doing, judging from the results and the tests we subject the product to. We wouldn't be getting near completion if these figures are accurate, we wouldn't be able to wash the stuff for one thing, it'd just emulsify. No washing problems here though, nor any other problems. You said earlier that 200ml/l is a good all-round ratio, but on your figures here for soy, that would leave you with only 1.8% excess, nowhere near enough. And how would that square with your figures for coconut and palm oil? Or am I reading you wrong? Best Keith Soybean Oil SAP No: 185-195(mean: 190) Vol. MeOH: 182.2 mL + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 70.78 mL Vol. BD Yield: 1112.28 mL Corn Oil SAP No: 196 Vol. MeOH: 187.54 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 78.00 Coconut Oil SAP No: 258 Vol. MeOH: 247.4 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 102.9 Palm Oil SAP No: ~247 Vol. MeOH: 245 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 101.94 Assuming complete conversion and no loss, yields should be the above values. I have found them consistent with my experiments. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 12:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: How much methanol should you use? SAP values give how many moles of fatty acid are in fresh oil. Even if the oil is used, the moles of fatty acid should remain the same, except, of coarse, for the addition of FREE fatty acid from the food cooked. You just need a little more to add to the Sap determined stoichiometric ratio to account for the additional ffa's. Since I am talking about stoichiometric quantity of fatty acid in the oil, and therefore the MeOH needed, I'd say that Sap determined stoich values are more accurate regardless of the process. It says so in the article that, it doesn't make much sense anyway if the stoichiometric ratio is wrong in the first place
RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield
It's good to hear from you, Kieth. I use very little excess in my trials. Using the value from journey to forever of 121.52 mL for soy and add 60% excess, we 194.43 mL. I don't think our values differ at all. You got it right using experimentally derived amout of excess. I just went around the guess work. It doesn't take that much excess to drive the reaction forward. The excess only comes in the later part of the reaction to increase concentration and the chances of collission. Let me rephrase my statement. 200mL MeOH/Liter is a good all around ratio to start with for any type of oil, fresh or used. Biodiesel is a good solvent for oil so you should be able to wash it even if conversion is not complete. I actually use 250mL for coconut and palm. Sap determine MeOH volume for coco is 247.4 and palm is 145. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:47 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hello Chris 18-19% stoichiometric quantity for soy and corn? That's 6-7% more than other estimates, and would mean that none of us is using sufficient methanol excess - which we are doing, judging from the results and the tests we subject the product to. We wouldn't be getting near completion if these figures are accurate, we wouldn't be able to wash the stuff for one thing, it'd just emulsify. No washing problems here though, nor any other problems. You said earlier that 200ml/l is a good all-round ratio, but on your figures here for soy, that would leave you with only 1.8% excess, nowhere near enough. And how would that square with your figures for coconut and palm oil? Or am I reading you wrong? Best Keith Soybean Oil SAP No: 185-195(mean: 190) Vol. MeOH: 182.2 mL + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 70.78 mL Vol. BD Yield: 1112.28 mL Corn Oil SAP No: 196 Vol. MeOH: 187.54 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 78.00 Coconut Oil SAP No: 258 Vol. MeOH: 247.4 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 102.9 Palm Oil SAP No: ~247 Vol. MeOH: 245 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 101.94 Assuming complete conversion and no loss, yields should be the above values. I have found them consistent with my experiments. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 12:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: How much methanol should you use? SAP values give how many moles of fatty acid are in fresh oil. Even if the oil is used, the moles of fatty acid should remain the same, except, of coarse, for the addition of FREE fatty acid from the food cooked. You just need a little more to add to the Sap determined stoichiometric ratio to account for the additional ffa's. Since I am talking about stoichiometric quantity of fatty acid in the oil, and therefore the MeOH needed, I'd say that Sap determined stoich values are more accurate regardless of the process. It says so in the article that, it doesn't make much sense anyway if the stoichiometric ratio is wrong in the first place. By the way, Journey to Forever is great. I've learned so much about biodiesel in the 2 months since I first browsed the site. Christopher -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 1:41 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] RE: How much methanol should you use? Hello Christopher I would just like to comment on Christian Lenoir's work regarding the stoichiometric ratio of methanol to use. His findings are way bellow the amount that should be use. But that's explained very clearly on that page - that you need the stoichiometric amount PLUS an excess. How much excess you need is also discussed. There's a lot of confusion about this (as also explained there) because some people want to lay down the law on how much methanol is best REGARDLESS of the type and condition of the oil in question, and of the fact that different oils have different stoichiometric ratios. One advantage of doing it this way is that it shows how the different values are arrived at. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html How much methanol? I commend his efforts but it would have been easier and more accurate More accurate? I don't think so. had he simply used the saponification value of specific oil instead of going through his trouble. The mole of methanol to be used would simply be the sap value (which is just the mole of KOH). You just have to do the conversion. Aleks Kac's 200mL MeOH/Liter is a good all around ratio for any type of oil, fresh or used. Good if you're doing Aleks's acid-base process, yes, which is why it says at the end: With the Foolproof acid-base two-stage method, don't worry about it, just follow the instructions. But you won't get too far with only 20% if you're trying to use
RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield
Hi Chris It's good to hear from you, Kieth. :-) Bit erratic these days, sorry... I use very little excess in my trials. Using the value from journey to forever of 121.52 mL for soy and add 60% excess, we 194.43 mL. I don't think our values differ at all. You got it right using experimentally derived amout of excess. I just went around the guess work. Chris I don't understand this - are we using different terms for the same thing (or the same terms for different things?) ? In the above para, I'd put 121.52 mL for soy as the stoichiometric quantity, with 60% the excess required to push the process towards completion - the stoichiometric quantity is constant, the excess varies somewhat, depending, as that page explains: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html How much methanol? But you say: I use very little excess in my trials. You mean excess beyond the 60% excess? It doesn't take that much excess to drive the reaction forward. The excess only comes in the later part of the reaction to increase concentration and the chances of collission. Let me rephrase my statement. 200mL MeOH/Liter is a good all around ratio to start with for any type of oil, fresh or used. Biodiesel is a good solvent for oil so you should be able to wash it even if conversion is not complete. Maybe not if you're left with a whole bunch of unconverted monoglycerides to emulsify it. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html Bubblewashing 101: Girl Mark - Emulsification - Emulsion Explained I actually use 250mL for coconut and palm. Sap determine MeOH volume for coco is 247.4 and palm is 145. It was discussion here some time ago on how much methanol is required for coconut oil that led to Christian and I doing the How much methanol? page - what was quite clear was that the advice that x amount of methanol achieved 98% conversion but y amount only 95% or less was obviously simplistic: it depends on the oil. Regards Keith Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:47 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hello Chris 18-19% stoichiometric quantity for soy and corn? That's 6-7% more than other estimates, and would mean that none of us is using sufficient methanol excess - which we are doing, judging from the results and the tests we subject the product to. We wouldn't be getting near completion if these figures are accurate, we wouldn't be able to wash the stuff for one thing, it'd just emulsify. No washing problems here though, nor any other problems. You said earlier that 200ml/l is a good all-round ratio, but on your figures here for soy, that would leave you with only 1.8% excess, nowhere near enough. And how would that square with your figures for coconut and palm oil? Or am I reading you wrong? Best Keith Soybean Oil SAP No: 185-195(mean: 190) Vol. MeOH: 182.2 mL + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 70.78 mL Vol. BD Yield: 1112.28 mL Corn Oil SAP No: 196 Vol. MeOH: 187.54 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 78.00 Coconut Oil SAP No: 258 Vol. MeOH: 247.4 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 102.9 Palm Oil SAP No: ~247 Vol. MeOH: 245 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 101.94 Assuming complete conversion and no loss, yields should be the above values. I have found them consistent with my experiments. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 12:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: How much methanol should you use? SAP values give how many moles of fatty acid are in fresh oil. Even if the oil is used, the moles of fatty acid should remain the same, except, of coarse, for the addition of FREE fatty acid from the food cooked. You just need a little more to add to the Sap determined stoichiometric ratio to account for the additional ffa's. Since I am talking about stoichiometric quantity of fatty acid in the oil, and therefore the MeOH needed, I'd say that Sap determined stoich values are more accurate regardless of the process. It says so in the article that, it doesn't make much sense anyway if the stoichiometric ratio is wrong in the first place. By the way, Journey to Forever is great. I've learned so much about biodiesel in the 2 months since I first browsed the site. Christopher -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 1:41 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] RE: How much methanol should you use? Hello Christopher I would just like to comment on Christian Lenoir's work regarding the stoichiometric ratio of methanol to use. His findings are way bellow the amount that should be use. But that's explained very clearly on that page - that you need
