Re: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
Do you mean that AOL/Time-Warner/Disney/ABC hasn't been giving it to me straight? Then maybe Old Yeller' is still alive? Think of the possibilities!!! We can rewrite history!!! Sad, but that's what is happening daily.as a result of the formation of misperceptions due to selective representation of content. And people are making wrong decisions every moment as a result of those missed representations. Todd Swearingen You trust these people, but you really shouldn't. Your media has been bought out, lock stock and barrel, by massive, powerful, vested interests whose media ownership would quite rightly have been outright illegal not very long ago, before they started putting the pressure on to have the laws changed. Their interests are inimical to the public interest and to the free flow of information. While you're there, check this out: http://www.takebackthemedia.com/owners.html Who Owns The Media? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
I hate to be the bearer of sad news Todd, but Old Yeller never was alive. That dog was an actor. :( Kirk -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:20 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal Do you mean that AOL/Time-Warner/Disney/ABC hasn't been giving it to me straight? Then maybe Old Yeller' is still alive? Think of the possibilities!!! We can rewrite history!!! Sad, but that's what is happening daily.as a result of the formation of misperceptions due to selective representation of content. And people are making wrong decisions every moment as a result of those missed representations. Todd Swearingen You trust these people, but you really shouldn't. Your media has been bought out, lock stock and barrel, by massive, powerful, vested interests whose media ownership would quite rightly have been outright illegal not very long ago, before they started putting the pressure on to have the laws changed. Their interests are inimical to the public interest and to the free flow of information. While you're there, check this out: http://www.takebackthemedia.com/owners.html Who Owns The Media? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.454 / Virus Database: 253 - Release Date: 2/10/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
But also note that not everyone thinks this way in the world. Other religions and cultures may differ. Who are we to judge they are wrong. If it is one person leading this, OK that's easy. But if it's part of the culture, isn't that the same as you first statement as others saying the US is bad becaus of election, burgers, capitalism, We have to respect people can (and will) be different in thinking than we do. Cultural Relativism can only go so far. At some point just men must stand up for their beliefs and protect those beliefs, regardless of national borders. Should we ignore female circumcision, or oppressive caste systems or slavery because other cultures find them acceptable, or even appropriate and proper? I'm reticent to mention the holocaust for fear of someone invoking Godwin's law but frankly, I can't think of a better example. OK, but that's my point. How far is to far, who sets the lines. 1) Protecting those beliefs, one should be carefull not to end up just forcing them onto others. Isn't that some type of oppression...? 2) Not always the persions being oppressed (to our beliefs) do not feel the same. Slavery for instance... in some past african culture, also slavery existed, but one had more respect for the slaves, then today some employers towards their employees... And even on 'our' western system... not every one is 'equal', some or more than others If you take the holocaust, that's a clear one, no way to say that was justified or whatever. But being a fundamentalist islamatic women... they truely believe they are 'blessed' with their role in society. Look at afganistan,... one can consider the women 'liberated' from the fundamentalist, so why do most keep on using that all-covering clothes. Certainly not all because they have to... It's not always easy to find a good seperation between rules of community, and oppressive rules. Why am I alowwed to drink alcohol, but making my own is a different story Fundamentally, western culture, all materialism and rhetoric aside, stands for pluralism. When confronted with belief system that does not share this view, we have a responsibility, nay a duty to stand up for certain basic human rights. Thus our addiction to cheap arab oil is that much more upsetting because it requires us to have friends like the Saudi's. However, pragmatically, we sometimes need to do things we don't like and may even find repugnent to protect our way of life. To pretend otherwise is naive juvenile idealism. The idea is materialism and individuality. Good and bad. But also in our western society, we have 'minority groups' (somethimes big) which ar 'set aside', who don't belong, or who have less possibilities in our society. So is our way of live the superior one? Right and wrong is to easy. Not protecting our way of life just means it will disappear. And we don't want this to happen, not for us or our children. But so does 'the other ones'! But lets be honest, those 'human rights' were set up mainly by our society, so protecting it is protecting our way of live... And in the meanwhile we are still screwing up nature. Have you once seen how intelligent apes are? They have social life, do communicate, can operate tools, And again we feel, we are supperior. So I would say, yes we have to protect our way of live, but we should not think we are doing this for the overall better, we are doing this for ourselves. In given our concept of human rights, we even should feel guilty about it, just to keep on reflecting, so we don't go to far in our society again. As eg. indians, slavery, or nazi's for that matter. (All which happend in 'our' society) Filip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
John E Hayes III wrote: But also note that not everyone thinks this way in the world. Other religions and cultures may differ. Who are we to judge they are wrong. If it is one person leading this, OK that's easy. But if it's part of the culture, isn't that the same as you first statement as others saying the US is bad becaus of election, burgers, capitalism, We have to respect people can (and will) be different in thinking than we do. Cultural Relativism can only go so far. At some point just men must stand up for their beliefs and protect those beliefs, regardless of national borders. Should we ignore female circumcision, or oppressive caste systems or slavery because other cultures find them acceptable, or even appropriate and proper? I'm reticent to mention the holocaust for fear of someone invoking Godwin's law but frankly, I can't think of a better example. Fundamentally, western culture, all materialism and rhetoric aside, stands for pluralism. When confronted with belief system that does not share this view, we have a responsibility, nay a duty to stand up for certain basic human rights. Thus our addiction to cheap arab oil is that much more upsetting because it requires us to have friends like the Saudi's. However, pragmatically, we sometimes need to do things we don't like and may even find repugnent to protect our way of life. To pretend otherwise is naive juvenile idealism. You seem to be saying something, but you don't quite get so far as saying it. What is this, an uncompleted rationale for bombing East Africa, India and Mauretania into a parking lot? I very much agree with Filip's opinion of your very one-sided views. You don't seem to see all the holes in your half-arguments. Thus our addiction to cheap arab oil is that much more upsetting because it requires us to have friends like the Saudi's. However, pragmatically, we sometimes need to do things we don't like and may even find repugnent to protect our way of life. To pretend otherwise is naive juvenile idealism. So you're addicted to cheap Arab oil. Nope - you're addicted to oil, that's all, no need for the embellishments. Anyway, so you're addicted to the stuff. And therefore you have to do things - it's not a matter of choice, it's your responsibility and your duty, you claim - do things that you don't like and may even find repugnent in order to protect your way of life. That's to protect our way of life, right, not just to ensure that you keep getting your fix? It's the same thing, you think? And everyone else must agree, even the victims? And so that means you get to bomb Iraq flat in the name of human rights, rather than do a cold-turkey on your addiction, right? Slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent people, in order to protect your way of life / keep getting your daily oil fix, and all in the name of your responsibility to protect human rights. I see. And I suppose questioning this, um, reasoning, like I'm doing, and probably about six billion others, is naive, juvenile and idealistic? And you're not severely disconnected. Well, okay, if you say so, anything you say. Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
Kieth: I am not trying to create an enemy, but you answer my email the first time two days ago. You left plenty of teeth marks and insults the last time. I was using information I heard from CNN news channel. I went to the CNN site and down loaded these poles performed by Gallup Poll and CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. The poles are also dated as of two days ago. Your article is a little off and old. I also left the address so you call check my information. George W. Bush Approval rating 58%(2/17-19/03). Do you support or oppose U.S. military action to disarm Iraq and remove Iraqi President Saddam Hussein? 2/17-19/03 equals 58 % approval. 2/7-9/03 equaled 69%. Thank you, and have a great day Harley Fellion http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm . Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president? Approve Disap- prove Don't Know % % % N 2/17-19/03 58 37 5 1,002 http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm The Gallup Poll. Latest: Feb. 17-19, 2003. N=1,002 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3. . Would you favor or oppose invading Iraq with U.S. ground troops in an attempt to remove Saddam Hussein from power? Favor Oppose No Opinion % % % 2/17-19/03 59 38 3 2/7-9/03 63 34 3 1/31 - 2/2/03 58 38 4 1/23-25/03 52 43 5 1/10-12/03 56 38 6 1/3-5/03 56 39 5 12/19-22/02 53 38 9 12/16-17/02 58 35 7 12/9-10/02 55 39 6 11/22-24/02 58 37 5 11/8-10/02 59 35 6 10/21-22/02 54 40 6 10/14-17/02 56 37 7 10/3-6/02 53 40 7 9/02 57 38 5 Do you support or oppose U.S. military action to disarm Iraq and remove Iraqi President Saddam Hussein? Support Oppose Not Sure % % % 2/03 69 23 8 1/29-30/03 67 21 12 1/14-15/03 67 25 8 12/02 65 23 12 11/02 68 18 14 -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:02 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal Harley wrote: I was using the 70 % rating that was being used by the US TV news media. I keep forgetting this site is world wide. The 70% was taken from poles done here in the USA. The TV news media did show the anti-war rallies in New York, and England, and France. The protests Anti-war, Anti-American, Anti-Bush. and Anti-anything is becoming Anti-Bush. My view as in the past is very Pro-Bush. He is day to night compared to Bill Clinton. Bush picks a point of view and sticks to it. Remember someone has to balance out, some of the Liberals. Cool, Yes I believe you are right. Somewhere around 70%. This is a bit closer to the mark: ... Four-fifths of the U.S. public believe Saddam was involved in acts of terrorism against the United States (according to a December 2002 Tribune/WGN-TV poll), and a majority today fear him and think that this regional bully, who has been almost entirely disarmed and who the Bush gang is toying with like a Bengal tiger might play with a malnourished mouse, actually poses a military threat to the pitiful giant. This is the ultimate propaganda system at work. But despite these irrational and manipulated fears, almost a third of the public (29 percent) remains opposed to the war and a solid majority (59 to 37 percent in a recent NYT/CBS poll) favors giving the UN and inspections more time. On the basis of this opposition and these doubts a major peace movement has come into being to oppose the war--and it has come into existence and grown at a far quicker pace than during the Vietnam war. The February 15th demonstrations here and abroad were possibly the largest ever, to the consternation of the war party. This peace movement could stop the war if it had any kind of support from the mass media in focusing on the illegality of the Bush plan, the serial lies used by the war party, its compromised position in prior support of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction, the hidden agenda (oil, support of Sharon, coverup for Bush's internal policies), and the recklessness and human and material cost of this forthcoming aggression. But the U.S. mainstream media are currently serving as propaganda arms of the state, which is helping the war party maintain just enough support and public inertia to sustain their political
RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
Hello Harley Kieth: I am not trying to create an enemy, Nor am I. but you answer my email the first time two days ago. You left plenty of teeth marks and insults the last time. Maybe you perceived it that way, but there was no personal attack, nor insults, nor any such intentions. I was certainly direct (and why not?), but I simply dealt with what you'd said, and its context. Don't forget your original post on this topic (different thread) wasn't exactly polite, eh? What doesn't the article hold back on, the truth or BS. Do you really believe Secretary of State Colin Powell plagiarized material from a college student for his speech to the United Nations. He has the total U.S. Intelligence gathering agencies to use at his disposal, and he plagiarized from a college student. I believe the article is a little full of something. Harley Nor very accurate. This time round, among other things, I said this: Harley ( the toad, if it makes you feel better) Why do you say that? Why would that make me feel better? I wasn't personal, why do you take it personally? Why do you take any criticism of the regime in your country and of its policies as an attack? Isn't that what democracy is supposed to be about? Or did you forget? Also this: It's odd, but actually you haven't responded to my message at all. Are you aware of that? And you didn't respond to that one at all either, except on the polls. I was using information I heard from CNN news channel. I went to the CNN site and down loaded these poles performed by Gallup Poll and CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. The poles are also dated as of two days ago. Your article is a little off and old. There have been others since then, not off and old, but I guess you didn't read them (off-topic politics). Much of what I've said about it is not old and off at all, it's general, basic. I guess you haven't read that either, or you wouldn't be citing mainstream polls cited by cable TV. I also left the address so you call check my information. George W. Bush Approval rating 58%(2/17-19/03). Do you support or oppose U.S. military action to disarm Iraq and remove Iraqi President Saddam Hussein? 2/17-19/03 equals 58 % approval. 2/7-9/03 equaled 69%. Did you read this, from my previous message? http://www.retropoll.org/press_releases.htm October 17, 2002 Polling Organization Sets Sights on Government-Media Disinformation - Poll results suggest public opinion polls don't reflect public's views Or any of the other links in that message? Or, since you like CNN so much, despite your interest in Krugman's article, how about this? http://www.takebackthemedia.com/news-cnnedit.html CNN leaves 750 words out of Blix transcript. Now, this is pretty much what we're talking about here. How in the world do you trust a 'news' organiztion like CNN, when they offer what purports to be a full transcript of Hans Blix' address to the UN Security Council but they leave out nearly 800 words - and those words just happen to be the ones where Blix refutes Colin Powell's 'smoking gun' presentation from earlier this week? [more] Check it out, please do. You trust these people, but you really shouldn't. Your media has been bought out, lock stock and barrel, by massive, powerful, vested interests whose media ownership would quite rightly have been outright illegal not very long ago, before they started putting the pressure on to have the laws changed. Their interests are inimical to the public interest and to the free flow of information. While you're there, check this out: http://www.takebackthemedia.com/owners.html Who Owns The Media? And also, why? Thank you, and have a great day You too. regards Keith Harley Fellion http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
But also note that not everyone thinks this way in the world. Other religions and cultures may differ. Who are we to judge they are wrong. If it is one person leading this, OK that's easy. But if it's part of the culture, isn't that the same as you first statement as others saying the US is bad becaus of election, burgers, capitalism, We have to respect people can (and will) be different in thinking than we do. Cultural Relativism can only go so far. At some point just men must stand up for their beliefs and protect those beliefs, regardless of national borders. Should we ignore female circumcision, or oppressive caste systems or slavery because other cultures find them acceptable, or even appropriate and proper? I'm reticent to mention the holocaust for fear of someone invoking Godwin's law but frankly, I can't think of a better example. Fundamentally, western culture, all materialism and rhetoric aside, stands for pluralism. When confronted with belief system that does not share this view, we have a responsibility, nay a duty to stand up for certain basic human rights. Thus our addiction to cheap arab oil is that much more upsetting because it requires us to have friends like the Saudi's. However, pragmatically, we sometimes need to do things we don't like and may even find repugnent to protect our way of life. To pretend otherwise is naive juvenile idealism. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
I kept out of the discussions so far, but now I want to kick in... some reactions. I'm from Europe, Belgium, and I agree, Americans are not THE bad guys... but be honest, your not (I mean the presedent, senate, lobbyists,... those who make the rullings) saints eithers. You can read the kind of information you are sending me in this country, its always there. Don't think it is exclusive information only available outside of the US. But you can not discard that the US has large intrest-groeps and lobbyist, with big impact and influence. This makes that informatie will get filtered. It is not censorship, but info will be colored, and the big companies will 'stear' the info. Should we learn to turn our back on oppressive regimes, stop being the biggest provider of aid? Should we forget about 20th century history and the lessons learnt. Isolationism took place in the '30's. Result WWII. For the people who want 'personal freedom', the world has been lucky to have the US. E.g. WWII. But also note that not everyone thinks this way in the world. Other religions and cultures may differ. Who are we to judge they are wrong. If it is one person leading this, OK that's easy. But if it's part of the culture, isn't that the same as you first statement as others saying the US is bad becaus of election, burgers, capitalism, We have to respect people can (and will) be different in thinking than we do. What we can oppose is that others want to force their thinking up on us. And also on this we US,Europe,... have to be carefull not to do this to others... Should America have forced a stalemate in Korea in the '50's? Was America naive getting into Vietnam as the French bailed in the early '60's? Should America have let Iraq have Kuwait? Iraq invading Kuwait, that's easy. US went to help because of personal agenda, but some legimitation was there. Now I'm not so sure. We haven't seen one clear evidenvce or smoking gun yet. Innocent until proven guilty??? Be honest, when the US comes to 'aid', it is offen with a double (hidden?) agenda. And that's only human. But not let us make humans into saints when they are not. (I mean for instance Bush!) Do you think we don't know the US supported Iraq in the early '80's following the Iranian revolution when the two countries were fighting and Iran looked set to take over the middle east. Do you think we don't know that it is a miserable job trying to maintain some order in the middle east to stabilize oil prices upon which the world depends, not just the US which is less dependant than Europe. Do you think we protect Israel just to piss people off or do you think people here really worry about another holocaust. Lets' be honest, some prove of double agenda. Don't forget the US has a large intrestgroup related to Israel. That does not automatically make action wrong, but again, 'colours' the actions. It appears to be a unifying force, hate America, clearly 9/11 was great for many. We did enjoy seeing the shots of people dancing in the streets in Palestine on the same day. And this is about the biggest coloring of info... 9/11 was WRONG. no discussion. But the pictures of the palestine as shown on CNN were 1 YEAR OLD... not the day after. And surely, some (oer more) of them will have found Bin Laden 'great', but most also will not have known the full impact. And doin't forget the situation theuy are in. All things have always two sides The UN didn't act with Afghanistan. Should the US have gone in to put an end to the terrorist training camps there? Or do people believe that it was Bush making it all up with the help of Hollywood. Maybe Bush wanted to bring order back to the heroin trade because that's how he secretly funds his megalomania. Or maybe Bin Laden works for Bush, after we never got him, so that we'd have a good excuse to run around the world killing people out of a self manufactured sense of moral outrage. The nature of the UN would confict with action in Afghanistan. They are a 'defense' organisation. This would rather have been something for the NATO. although the US was not at war with Afganistan. These organisations are set up as 'interface' between countries, not individuals, as Bin Laden and his bandits. regards, Filip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
Cool, Yes I believe you are right. Somewhere around 70%. I very much doubt it - more like a minority, maybe not even a very big one. Eg (close your eyes and point anywhere), the anti-war protests: ...It was the wide array of people from all walks of life - high school students showing they cared about more than their own problems, soccer moms protesting for the first time, retired school teachers, professionals in suits, war veterans, parents who also brought their young children - that gave me the most hope. Bush can continue to ignore veteran activists and liberals like me. But he can't ignore the independent suburban voters, the kind who don't vote straight-ticket Republican or any other political party... I believe the people who came out and practiced their democratic rights on Saturday are more American than those who sat on their butts and criticized them. We must continue to display our flags with pride, showing we are patriots who care about more than the selfish, violent agenda pushed by Bush Inc... So where was this cesspit of knee-jerk anti-American left-wing iniquity, you might ask? ... one of the most right-wing regions of the world, the former home of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and the fictional J.R. Ewing and many others who represent cold-hearted, selfish economic and political policies: Dallas, Texas. http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15197 Texans Turn Out Against War By Jackson Thoreau, AlterNet February 16, 2003 Most of us Americans know the difference between right / wrong, and good / bad. $100 billion a year spent on advertising in the US says otherwise, $35 billion a year spent by the PR industry in the US to twist reality on behalf of the rich and powerful says otherwise, intense and ongoing concentration of media ownership in the hands of powerful corporate interests (the major PR agency clients) says otherwise. Yet I agree with you - most Americans do know the difference betwen right and wrong, good and bad, in spite of all the spin - but they don't agree with you about the war. But say you're right, 70% of Americans agree with James's pal. How come it's just the opposite in virtually every other country, including your alleged ally Britain, including your other alleged ally Australia? - 70% and up against the war. Including Turkey (see the recent NATO fuss, if you didn't already). They're, what, plain wrong? But they're the vast world majority - uh, you believe in democracy, right? They're ill-informed then? Hah! James's (erstwhile) pal isn't American, he's English, now living in the US. What if he'd moved to Germany instead? Would he now be thinking just the same, do you think? Or would he be agreeing with the Germans? But I bet you just discounted what I said above about PR dollars. So what then - simply standing on US soil brings a penetrating enlightenment all its own that just doesn't happen elsewhere? Keith And 99 % don't live anything like what is shown on the movies or the news. Harley -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 3:22 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal IK suspect there's quite a bit of support for the latest from my US based English pal... Fine The US is bad and everyone else is good. Bush didn't really get elected, he just scammed his way in and we were too busy eating burgers to notice. We don't really have a free press or opposition party to raise issues. We get our rocks off killing people around the world and are all part of a global conspiracy to steal everybody's natural resources because we are fed up paying for them. You can read the kind of information you are sending me in this country, its always there. Don't think it is exclusive information only available outside of the US. Should we learn to turn our back on oppressive regimes, stop being the biggest provider of aid? Should we forget about 20th century history and the lessons learnt. Isolationism took place in the '30's. Result WWII. People in America are appalled by the McCarthy era too, but if it wasn't for American pressure from 1944 to the Berlin wall coming down Russia would have taken over Europe. As it was a stalemate was produced, where the other side tired first. Was America perfect through that 45 year period? No. I think we get on better with Russia than Europe these days. What was the central issue? Communism versus Capitalism, just basic ideals. One system seems to work better than the other. Should America have forced a stalemate in Korea in the '50's? Was America naive getting into Vietnam as the French bailed in the early '60's? Should America have let Iraq have Kuwait? Do you think we don't know the US supported Iraq in the early '80's following the Iranian revolution when the two countries were fighting and Iran looked set to take over
RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
Keith: I was using the 70 % rating that was being used by the US TV news media. I keep forgetting this site is world wide. The 70% was taken from poles done here in the USA. The TV news media did show the anti-war rallies in New York, and England, and France. The protests Anti-war, Anti-American, Anti-Bush. and Anti-anything is becoming Anti-Bush. My view as in the past is very Pro-Bush. He is day to night compared to Bill Clinton. Bush picks a point of view and sticks to it. Remember someone has to balance out, some of the Liberals. I am glad to hear that Jame's pal is British. I understand you are leaving political discussions on this site, but it is off subject. It is interesting when a Bio Diesel subject actually comes up. To answer your question dealing about feeling special, actually no. As an American, I don't feel special. As an American I feel lucky. The US is a great place to live. The American Society is far from perfect, but I believe it is better than most. $135 billion spent on PR, and advertising. I would consider the monies was used to sell products or services. Or are you saying that all that money was spent just to convince me that this is a great country. They did not need to do that on my behalf. Seriously, if I believed everything that is print on this site, about Bush. You must consider him the slime of the universe. He is better than Sadum. We know Sadum has already used chemical weapons on his own people. What do you think that he would not hesitation on using them on you, me or anybody else on this list? I don't believe that the American people are enlightened. I believe that most have become a TV zombies. Dumb down by the boob tube. Harley ( the toad, if it makes you feel better) -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:13 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal Cool, Yes I believe you are right. Somewhere around 70%. I very much doubt it - more like a minority, maybe not even a very big one. Eg (close your eyes and point anywhere), the anti-war protests: It was the wide array of people from all walks of life - high school students showing they cared about more than their own problems, soccer moms protesting for the first time, retired school teachers, professionals in suits, war veterans, parents who also brought their young children - that gave me the most hope. Bush can continue to ignore veteran activists and liberals like me. But he can't ignore the independent suburban voters, the kind who don't vote straight-ticket Republican or any other political party... I believe the people who came out and practiced their democratic rights on Saturday are more American than those who sat on their butts and criticized them. We must continue to display our flags with pride, showing we are patriots who care about more than the selfish, violent agenda pushed by Bush Inc... So where was this cesspit of knee-jerk anti-American left-wing iniquity, you might ask? ... one of the most right-wing regions of the world, the former home of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and the fictional J.R. Ewing and many others who represent cold-hearted, selfish economic and political policies: Dallas, Texas. http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15197 Texans Turn Out Against War By Jackson Thoreau, AlterNet February 16, 2003 Most of us Americans know the difference between right / wrong, and good / bad. $100 billion a year spent on advertising in the US says otherwise, $35 billion a year spent by the PR industry in the US to twist reality on behalf of the rich and powerful says otherwise, intense and ongoing concentration of media ownership in the hands of powerful corporate interests (the major PR agency clients) says otherwise. Yet I agree with you - most Americans do know the difference betwen right and wrong, good and bad, in spite of all the spin - but they don't agree with you about the war. But say you're right, 70% of Americans agree with James's pal. How come it's just the opposite in virtually every other country, including your alleged ally Britain, including your other alleged ally Australia? - 70% and up against the war. Including Turkey (see the recent NATO fuss, if you didn't already). They're, what, plain wrong? But they're the vast world majority - uh, you believe in democracy, right? They're ill-informed then? Hah! James's (erstwhile) pal isn't American, he's English, now living in the US. What if he'd moved to Germany instead? Would he now be thinking just the same, do you think? Or would he be agreeing with the Germans? But I bet you just discounted what I said above about PR dollars. So what then - simply standing on US soil brings a penetrating enlightenment all its own that just doesn't happen elsewhere? Keith And 99
RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
Cool, Yes I believe you are right. Somewhere around 70%. Most of us Americans know the difference between right / wrong, and good / bad. And 99 % don't live anything like what is shown on the movies or the news. Harley -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 3:22 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal IK suspect there's quite a bit of support for the latest from my US based English pal... Fine The US is bad and everyone else is good. Bush didn't really get elected, he just scammed his way in and we were too busy eating burgers to notice. We don't really have a free press or opposition party to raise issues. We get our rocks off killing people around the world and are all part of a global conspiracy to steal everybody's natural resources because we are fed up paying for them. You can read the kind of information you are sending me in this country, its always there. Don't think it is exclusive information only available outside of the US. Should we learn to turn our back on oppressive regimes, stop being the biggest provider of aid? Should we forget about 20th century history and the lessons learnt. Isolationism took place in the '30's. Result WWII. People in America are appalled by the McCarthy era too, but if it wasn't for American pressure from 1944 to the Berlin wall coming down Russia would have taken over Europe. As it was a stalemate was produced, where the other side tired first. Was America perfect through that 45 year period? No. I think we get on better with Russia than Europe these days. What was the central issue? Communism versus Capitalism, just basic ideals. One system seems to work better than the other. Should America have forced a stalemate in Korea in the '50's? Was America naive getting into Vietnam as the French bailed in the early '60's? Should America have let Iraq have Kuwait? Do you think we don't know the US supported Iraq in the early '80's following the Iranian revolution when the two countries were fighting and Iran looked set to take over the middle east. Do you think we don't know that it is a miserable job trying to maintain some order in the middle east to stabilize oil prices upon which the world depends, not just the US which is less dependant than Europe. Do you think we protect Israel just to piss people off or do you think people here really worry about another holocaust. If America didn't threaten Iraq with war do you think Saddam would loose any sleep over UN sanctions? It appears to be a unifying force, hate America, clearly 9/11 was great for many. We did enjoy seeing the shots of people dancing in the streets in Palestine on the same day. The UN didn't act with Afghanistan. Should the US have gone in to put an end to the terrorist training camps there? Or do people believe that it was Bush making it all up with the help of Hollywood. Maybe Bush wanted to bring order back to the heroin trade because that's how he secretly funds his megalomania. Or maybe Bin Laden works for Bush, after we never got him, so that we'd have a good excuse to run around the world killing people out of a self manufactured sense of moral outrage. Who knows, I'd rather smoke p-- and chill. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
