Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
I was at a Penn State lecture on global warming. In the parking lot they had a hybrid car. Biodiesel and electric. There was also a tank of hydrogen in the trunk. The fellow there said that the hydrogen boosts the power of the biodiesel. He didn't seem to know much. I asked if the hydrogen was stored as a metal hydride and he looked at me blankly and shrugged. He didn't seem to know how much extra power the hydrogen added. All he knew was that the fuel tank was 6 gallons and the range of the car was about 300 miles. He didn't know how much the battery power contributed to the range. Anybody hear about boosting power with hydrogen? Seems like a lot of extra trouble to me. Ken - Original Message From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2008 5:38:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting Just the batteries. Z On Feb 2, 2008 5:20 AM, John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Cheers John Zeke Yewdall wrote: ...snip... For about $30k, you can fairly easily get 100+ mile range on a plain battery EV. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080205/ab66ba95/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
Ken Riznyk wrote: I was at a Penn State lecture on global warming. In the parking lot they had a hybrid car. Biodiesel and electric. There was also a tank of hydrogen in the trunk. The fellow there said that the hydrogen boosts the power of the biodiesel. He didn't seem to know much. I asked if the hydrogen was stored as a metal hydride and he looked at me blankly and shrugged. He didn't seem to know how much extra power the hydrogen added. All he knew was that the fuel tank was 6 gallons and the range of the car was about 300 miles. He didn't know how much the battery power contributed to the range. Anybody hear about boosting power with hydrogen? Seems like a lot of extra trouble to me. The technique works because of hydrogen's flammability characteristics. If you liken the biodiesel to a stack of wood and the hydrogen to a few liters of gasoline, you can imagine that coating the wood with gasoline makes the stock easier to ignite. In this manner, the hydrogen acts as a kind of catalyst to speed combustion. The reason it gives more power (and a cleaner burn) is that most of the power in a piston engine comes in the first 33% of its stroke. Burning the fuel faster delivers more energy to drive the piston during that critical period, hence, it makes better use of the energy in the fuel. Additionally, the hydrogen itself contributes to the overall energy of the fuel charge. By mass, nothing comes close to hydrogen in terms of energy. One of the big problems with hydrogen as a fuel, however, is its energy density is so pathetic. Sir Harry Ricardo discovered all of this during the 1930's. He was one of those rare, brilliant people who figured out a lot of things using actual science, rather than hype! Is it a lot of trouble? Yes, I think so. Nonetheless, hydrogen boost would be fun to do as an intellectual exercise. Peak power and efficiency occurs when hydrogen is roughly 5% of the intake mass. Since this varies by temperature, you'd need a computer to do the hydrogen boost most effectively. But it's possible to get around 20% more fuel economy this way. To make it worthwhile, the price of your fuel would need to be pretty high to justify the expense of the hydrogen. It could also be generated on board, which would limit that efficiency gain to between 5 and 10%. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
Did some work with Hydrogen in the 1999's - 2000. When burned with diesel (we didn't use biodiesel) it amounts to cleaning up the exhaust, so that much of the emissions, soot, smoke, etc are virtually eliminated. In doing so, you are essentially getting more energy out of the diesel burned (the 'unburned amount' plus the approx 600 btu/ft3 for the H2. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Riznyk Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:37 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting I was at a Penn State lecture on global warming. In the parking lot they had a hybrid car. Biodiesel and electric. There was also a tank of hydrogen in the trunk. The fellow there said that the hydrogen boosts the power of the biodiesel. He didn't seem to know much. I asked if the hydrogen was stored as a metal hydride and he looked at me blankly and shrugged. He didn't seem to know how much extra power the hydrogen added. All he knew was that the fuel tank was 6 gallons and the range of the car was about 300 miles. He didn't know how much the battery power contributed to the range. Anybody hear about boosting power with hydrogen? Seems like a lot of extra trouble to me. Ken - Original Message From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2008 5:38:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting Just the batteries. Z On Feb 2, 2008 5:20 AM, John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Cheers John Zeke Yewdall wrote: ...snip... For about $30k, you can fairly easily get 100+ mile range on a plain battery EV. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080205/ab66ba95/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
Just the batteries. Z On Feb 2, 2008 5:20 AM, John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Cheers John Zeke Yewdall wrote: ...snip... For about $30k, you can fairly easily get 100+ mile range on a plain battery EV. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Cheers John Zeke Yewdall wrote: ...snip... For about $30k, you can fairly easily get 100+ mile range on a plain battery EV. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
John Mullan wrote: Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Indeed it would. If I could find a Lithium BEV that cheap that would do what I need then I might look seriously into it. With $3+/gallon gasoline, and diesel fuel more than that, and my 30 mile daily commute, payback would come pretty quickly with that. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
i suspect 30k is probably a fairly realistic ballpark to perform a lithium-based BEV conversion on an existing IC vehicle. or at the very least provide the batteries. i'm really just guessing, though. . . . On 2/2/08, Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Mullan wrote: Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Indeed it would. If I could find a Lithium BEV that cheap that would do what I need then I might look seriously into it. With $3+/gallon gasoline, and diesel fuel more than that, and my 30 mile daily commute, payback would come pretty quickly with that. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
Even better with my 50 mile commute. My wife's career is here, mine 50 miles out. No savings by moving, still adds up to 100 miles per day. :( Alan Petrillo wrote: John Mullan wrote: Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Indeed it would. If I could find a Lithium BEV that cheap that would do what I need then I might look seriously into it. With $3+/gallon gasoline, and diesel fuel more than that, and my 30 mile daily commute, payback would come pretty quickly with that. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
John Mullan wrote: Even better with my 50 mile commute. My wife's career is here, mine 50 miles out. No savings by moving, still adds up to 100 miles per day. :( My problem is that I have stretches of interstate highway no matter how I go, so I need a vehicle that will go 75mph, and keep going 75mph for at least 12 miles in each direction. So far most of the affordable BEV's that I've seen either a) won't go that fast, or b) won't go that fast for that long. Or c) just plain don't have the range I need. Plus there's no chance of topping up the charge while I'm at work so I'd need to go the whole round trip on a single charge. AP Alan Petrillo wrote: John Mullan wrote: Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Indeed it would. If I could find a Lithium BEV that cheap that would do what I need then I might look seriously into it. With $3+/gallon gasoline, and diesel fuel more than that, and my 30 mile daily commute, payback would come pretty quickly with that. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
75mph is pretty fast! even if that's the limit where you live, there's also a minimum speed. 50 or 55 in most every state. try it out, you'll save on fuel. On 2/2/08, Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Mullan wrote: Even better with my 50 mile commute. My wife's career is here, mine 50 miles out. No savings by moving, still adds up to 100 miles per day. :( My problem is that I have stretches of interstate highway no matter how I go, so I need a vehicle that will go 75mph, and keep going 75mph for at least 12 miles in each direction. So far most of the affordable BEV's that I've seen either a) won't go that fast, or b) won't go that fast for that long. Or c) just plain don't have the range I need. Plus there's no chance of topping up the charge while I'm at work so I'd need to go the whole round trip on a single charge. AP Alan Petrillo wrote: John Mullan wrote: Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Indeed it would. If I could find a Lithium BEV that cheap that would do what I need then I might look seriously into it. With $3+/gallon gasoline, and diesel fuel more than that, and my 30 mile daily commute, payback would come pretty quickly with that. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
Chris Burck wrote: 75mph is pretty fast! even if that's the limit where you live, there's also a minimum speed. 50 or 55 in most every state. try it out, you'll save on fuel. Saving fuel is one thing, being suicidal is another. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
nothing suicidal about it! seriously. i don't mean to sermonize, but isn't conservation and environmental concern at the heart of this list? i drive 50-55 on the interstate all the time (yeah, i'm the one), and trust me, it's *way* safer than driving 25mph faster. even with all the crazy people impatiently flying past at 75 or better (usually better), honking their horns and flipping the bird. On 2/3/08, Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Burck wrote: 75mph is pretty fast! even if that's the limit where you live, there's also a minimum speed. 50 or 55 in most every state. try it out, you'll save on fuel. Saving fuel is one thing, being suicidal is another. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
Chris Burck wrote: nothing suicidal about it! seriously. i don't mean to sermonize, but isn't conservation and environmental concern at the heart of this list? Well, yes, but there are realities of life. The Howard Frankenstein Bridge is exciting enough at the best of times. When it's rush hour on Idiots On The Road Day, or especially when the street racers are out, it can get a whole lot of the wrong kind of exciting. I'm not willing to compound it by making myself a rolling obstacle. i drive 50-55 on the interstate all the time (yeah, i'm the one), and trust me, it's *way* safer than driving 25mph faster. even with all the crazy people impatiently flying past at 75 or better (usually better), honking their horns and flipping the bird. shrug Each to his own. Personally, I'll keep following the 80% rule. I won't flip you off, I'll just pass you. My hybrid seems to keep getting 50+mpg whether I'm going 55 or 75, and my little diesel pickup gets 28 mpg no matter what I do with it. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
I think we're deviating from the original subject, but I'd like to add that I wish the Chevy Volt was more than a concept car. Would fill the gap until all electric has suitable range. Topping up at work likely wouldn't be an issue for me. Cheers. Alan Petrillo wrote: John Mullan wrote: Even better with my 50 mile commute. My wife's career is here, mine 50 miles out. No savings by moving, still adds up to 100 miles per day. :( My problem is that I have stretches of interstate highway no matter how I go, so I need a vehicle that will go 75mph, and keep going 75mph for at least 12 miles in each direction. So far most of the affordable BEV's that I've seen either a) won't go that fast, or b) won't go that fast for that long. Or c) just plain don't have the range I need. Plus there's no chance of topping up the charge while I'm at work so I'd need to go the whole round trip on a single charge. AP Alan Petrillo wrote: John Mullan wrote: Zeke: Are you talking about $30K to change out a battery pack, or a whole lithium based vehicle for $30K? Seems to me that would be a real bargain. Indeed it would. If I could find a Lithium BEV that cheap that would do what I need then I might look seriously into it. With $3+/gallon gasoline, and diesel fuel more than that, and my 30 mile daily commute, payback would come pretty quickly with that. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
John Mullan wrote: I think we're deviating from the original subject, but I'd like to add that I wish the Chevy Volt was more than a concept car. Would fill the gap until all electric has suitable range. Topping up at work likely wouldn't be an issue for me. I'll wholeheartedly agree with that! With the range figures advertised for the Volt range wouldn't be an issue for me either, assuming the range at the brochure and the range on the highway are somewhere close to the same. Now I just need a way to charge it from a 15 amp circuit. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
I am confused about your analysis James. How is a fuel cell the same as a current car technology? A hydrogen fuel cell has 0 moving parts, and produces electricity for an electric car. The Fuel Cell is a replacement for batteries. Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James McCain Jr Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:34 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [BULK] Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Sighting Importance: Low I am not that excited about hydrogen fuel cells. Yes it will be better for the environment, but it is a super inefficient way to fuel a car. Not to mention it is the same type of setup; you buy your overpriced car, you now only have one choice on where to get fuel, you pay for expensive maintenance on an inefficient engine with a zillion moving parts. The better answer to this problem that wouldn't involve an IV like hook up to fuel companies is ELECTRICITY. It can be produced tons of different ways, the car has 7 or less moving parts. No maintenance and no IV to the fuel companies. James Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Mullan wrote: Maybe just a research vehicle heading to some testing place? That possibility does exist. There are several vehicle manufacturers that test their vehicles in Florida, so maybe Ford is one of them. AP Alan Petrillo wrote: robert and benita wrote: Alan Petrillo wrote: I saw a hydrogen fuel cell powered Ford Focus in traffic this afternoon. It was on I-275 North going across the Howard Frankland bridge going toward Tampa, Florida. On the back of a flatbed truck. . . . because it didn't have the range to get anywhere on its own? . . . because it couldn't find fuel? : - ) All of the above? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080201/ead136c5/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
1) if the hydrogen is obtained from methane, or other hydrocarbons then CO2 is generated as a by-product. 2) If not, generally nuclear (pronounced NU-KU-LER) power is touted as the clean method to generate Hydrogen from, say, water. Also (he did say fuel cell) but hydrogen can be burned in a car set-up to run on methane or propane (but may need adjustments to regulators, and ratios). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Oliver Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:42 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting I am confused about your analysis James. How is a fuel cell the same as a current car technology? A hydrogen fuel cell has 0 moving parts, and produces electricity for an electric car. The Fuel Cell is a replacement for batteries. Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James McCain Jr Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:34 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [BULK] Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Sighting Importance: Low I am not that excited about hydrogen fuel cells. Yes it will be better for the environment, but it is a super inefficient way to fuel a car. Not to mention it is the same type of setup; you buy your overpriced car, you now only have one choice on where to get fuel, you pay for expensive maintenance on an inefficient engine with a zillion moving parts. The better answer to this problem that wouldn't involve an IV like hook up to fuel companies is ELECTRICITY. It can be produced tons of different ways, the car has 7 or less moving parts. No maintenance and no IV to the fuel companies. James Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Mullan wrote: Maybe just a research vehicle heading to some testing place? That possibility does exist. There are several vehicle manufacturers that test their vehicles in Florida, so maybe Ford is one of them. AP Alan Petrillo wrote: robert and benita wrote: Alan Petrillo wrote: I saw a hydrogen fuel cell powered Ford Focus in traffic this afternoon. It was on I-275 North going across the Howard Frankland bridge going toward Tampa, Florida. On the back of a flatbed truck. . . . because it didn't have the range to get anywhere on its own? . . . because it couldn't find fuel? : - ) All of the above? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080201/ead136c5/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
Actually, a fuel cell alone does have some resemblance to current (pre-hybrid) car technology. Batteries not only provide high power for acceleration and passing, but they recover energy otherwise lost in braking. Unless fuel cells become as cheap and light as combustion engines for the power they produce, they will need to be used with batteries or some other storage device. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada Frank Oliver wrote: I am confused about your analysis James. How is a fuel cell the same as a current car technology? A hydrogen fuel cell has 0 moving parts, and produces electricity for an electric car. The Fuel Cell is a replacement for batteries. Frank [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [BULK] Re: Hydrogen Car Sighting
Yes, current fuel cells lack peak power ability -- they do make a good hybrid with a battery electric, but alone, I don't believe the performance isn't so great. Besides the issue of the inefficiency of hydrogen generation and transformation back to electricity, there is the issue of cost -- the toyota highlander hydrogen fuel cell vehicle comes in around $1million I think. And it only has a 150 mile range or something. For about $30k, you can fairly easily get 100+ mile range on a plain battery EV. And EV battery technology is coming along very quickly compared to fuel cells fuel cells always seem to be 10 to 15 years off for cost effective ones But in the last 5 years, EV batteries (lithium ion variations) have come forward immensely, and in another 5 years, I expect the cost to be down again. The EV racing circles are pretty excited... for the first time, they can build vehicles that aren't battery packs with wheels last summer the fastest street legal drag racer replaced a 1000lb lead acid battery pack with a 280lb lithium pack, and dropped a second and a half off it's quarter mile time. Fairly soon, this lithium technology will find it's way to everyday EV's. The EV that I'm working on would normally have 1500lbs of lead acid batteries... making a pickup truck with no spare load capacity because all of it is taken up with batteries. And it would go maybe 50 or 60 miles. But, with current lithium technology, I could do with about 400lbs of batteries, leaving it as a useful pickup truck, and also extending the range to 100miles at the same time. IF I wanted to spend $28k, that is... I think that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are neat from a technical perspective, but I expect battery electrics to take over alot sooner. Z On Feb 1, 2008 3:22 PM, Douglas Woodard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, a fuel cell alone does have some resemblance to current (pre-hybrid) car technology. Batteries not only provide high power for acceleration and passing, but they recover energy otherwise lost in braking. Unless fuel cells become as cheap and light as combustion engines for the power they produce, they will need to be used with batteries or some other storage device. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada Frank Oliver wrote: I am confused about your analysis James. How is a fuel cell the same as a current car technology? A hydrogen fuel cell has 0 moving parts, and produces electricity for an electric car. The Fuel Cell is a replacement for batteries. Frank [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
