Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Obviously you're not a republican. -Sid *Wayne* Mike Redler wrote: Back off Weaver! Some things really are impossible. I did some research and according to Wayne Manzanero, you're WAY off! It's impossible to tell the sun to leave the sky It's impossible to ask a baby not to cry Can the ocean keep from rushing to the shore? ...it's just impossible! -Redler Mike Weaver wrote: Nonsense. You're not trying hard enough: Alice laughed: There's no use trying, she said; one can't believe impossible things. I daresay you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. /Alice in Wonderland. -Weaver [impossible snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Just in case anyone cares (at all) I, and I know others immediately tune out anything that has the phrase 'junk science' in it anywhere. The phrase was useful for about 4 months, many many years ago. It has long since lost any context. It is a pejorative term, initially used to describe logical fallacies masquerading as scientific explanations. In this sense, (from wikipedia) Affirming the consequent If someone is human (P), then she is mortal (Q). Anna is mortal (Q). Therefore Anna is human (P). But in fact Anna can be a cat; very much a mortal, but not a human one. This would be junk science. The term 'junk science' was QUICKLY co-opted by the Fred Singer's of the world (Heritage Institute) to dismiss stuff like a causality between 'second hand smoke' and health problems. Junk Science is a idealogical term, a heavily loaded one at that. So, when attempting to put a point across, one may do well to avoid using this phrase. --- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Nonsense. You're not trying hard enough: Alice laughed: There's no use trying, she said; one can't believe impossible things. I daresay you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. /Alice in Wonderland. -Weaver / bob allen wrote: Howdy Kirk, I must strongly disagree with just about everything in this article. Kirk McLoren wrote: http://nov55.com/prin.html *Prions and Junk Science* *Prion proteins lack genetic material for creating their own evolution. right out of the gun this is silly. Most if not all genetic diseases are expressed via ineffective or missing proteins. Sickle cell anemia and Tay-Sachs disease to name just two. In fact I challenge anyone to name any inherited disease which doesn't involve protein. When the genetic material is in the host, it's a genetic disease; but prion diseases are obviously not genetic diseases.* *Ever hear of new variant CJD? There cannot be such a thing as a new variant for a genetic disease. sure there can, all it takes in the a mutation of the DNA which codes for the protein involved in the disease Evolution cannot work against the source of the DNA.* huh? *On This Page:* * *Prions* http://nov55.com/prin.html#pri * *Junk Science* http://nov55.com/prin.html#Jun *Point 1. *There is zero probability that two mutations will support each other in creating genetic diseases. again this just isn't so. there are numerous examples of diseases which require more than one gene. So there could not be any more than one mutation in the whole field of Scrapies-like diseases—across species and all. actually there are several isoforms for the prion. *Point 2. *Nature has had 600 million years to iron out the flaws in brain membrane proteins. It is not still killing people over it. way not true, or don't you believe in any number of other inheritable diseases such as early onset Alzheimer's, et al. *Point 3. *A protein that causes a similar protein to change does not cause the cells to produce more such proteins and destroy themselves doing so. the author of this report simply does not understand how prion diseases work. The prion simply acts as a template to cause the misfolding of existing protein, which destroys the native protein function *Point 4. *Proteins are not indestructible; they are among the most fragile biological molecules. Genetic material is much closer to indestructible, because it needs to maintain information without error. *Point 5. *There is no method of dissemination for a prion disease except eating brains, all it takes is exposure to the prion, yes, eating brains puts one at the highest risk, but it is not the only mechanism for exposure. snip (Americans do not pronounce i as e, except to glorify junk science.) now there is a forceful argument. :- one of my favorites is the things that swim in the sea- ghoti that's gh as pronounced in enough-- F o as in women-- I ti as in action-- sh ghoti Prions are proteins which supposedly cause Mad Cow Disease and variants such as Scrapies. The claim that a protein can do the same thing as infectious agents is in conflict with all scientific principles involved. no it's not, the mechanism is clear and reproducible. the native conformation of the protein is in a thermodynamically less stable shape than the prion form. All it takes is a catalyst to cause an exergonic reaction from native conformation to prion conformation etc, etc, etc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
In the spirit of Godwin's law and considering the fact that Chip is the first (to my knowledge) to make this observation, maybe this phenomenon should be called Chip's Law. :-) -Redler Chip Mefford wrote: Just in case anyone cares (at all) I, and I know others immediately tune out anything that has the phrase 'junk science' in it anywhere. The phrase was useful for about 4 months, many many years ago. It has long since lost any context. It is a pejorative term, initially used to describe logical fallacies masquerading as scientific explanations. In this sense, (from wikipedia) Affirming the consequent If someone is human (P), then she is mortal (Q). Anna is mortal (Q). Therefore Anna is human (P). But in fact Anna can be a cat; very much a mortal, but not a human one. This would be junk science. The term 'junk science' was QUICKLY co-opted by the Fred Singer's of the world (Heritage Institute) to dismiss stuff like a causality between 'second hand smoke' and health problems. Junk Science is a idealogical term, a heavily loaded one at that. So, when attempting to put a point across, one may do well to avoid using this phrase. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Chip, What ever it is, most of it has a tendency to show up in my Eudora Junk Box. LOL Hakan At 20:01 14/06/2006, you wrote: Just in case anyone cares (at all) I, and I know others immediately tune out anything that has the phrase 'junk science' in it anywhere. The phrase was useful for about 4 months, many many years ago. It has long since lost any context. It is a pejorative term, initially used to describe logical fallacies masquerading as scientific explanations. In this sense, (from wikipedia) Affirming the consequent If someone is human (P), then she is mortal (Q). Anna is mortal (Q). Therefore Anna is human (P). But in fact Anna can be a cat; very much a mortal, but not a human one. This would be junk science. The term 'junk science' was QUICKLY co-opted by the Fred Singer's of the world (Heritage Institute) to dismiss stuff like a causality between 'second hand smoke' and health problems. Junk Science is a idealogical term, a heavily loaded one at that. So, when attempting to put a point across, one may do well to avoid using this phrase. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Back off Weaver! Some things really are impossible. I did some research and according to Wayne Manzanero, you're WAY off! It's impossible to tell the sun to leave the sky It's impossible to ask a baby not to cry Can the ocean keep from rushing to the shore? ...it's just impossible! -Redler Mike Weaver wrote: Nonsense. You're not trying hard enough: Alice laughed: There's no use trying, she said; one can't believe impossible things. I daresay you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. /Alice in Wonderland. -Weaver [impossible snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Howdy Kirk, I must strongly disagree with just about everything in this article. Kirk McLoren wrote: http://nov55.com/prin.html *Prions and Junk Science* *Prion proteins lack genetic material for creating their own evolution. right out of the gun this is silly. Most if not all genetic diseases are expressed via ineffective or missing proteins. Sickle cell anemia and Tay-Sachs disease to name just two. In fact I challenge anyone to name any inherited disease which doesn't involve protein. When the genetic material is in the host, it's a genetic disease; but prion diseases are obviously not genetic diseases.* *Ever hear of new variant CJD? There cannot be such a thing as a new variant for a genetic disease. sure there can, all it takes in the a mutation of the DNA which codes for the protein involved in the disease Evolution cannot work against the source of the DNA.* huh? *On This Page:* * *Prions* http://nov55.com/prin.html#pri * *Junk Science* http://nov55.com/prin.html#Jun *Point 1. *There is zero probability that two mutations will support each other in creating genetic diseases. again this just isn't so. there are numerous examples of diseases which require more than one gene. So there could not be any more than one mutation in the whole field of Scrapies-like diseases—across species and all. actually there are several isoforms for the prion. *Point 2. *Nature has had 600 million years to iron out the flaws in brain membrane proteins. It is not still killing people over it. way not true, or don't you believe in any number of other inheritable diseases such as early onset Alzheimer's, et al. *Point 3. *A protein that causes a similar protein to change does not cause the cells to produce more such proteins and destroy themselves doing so. the author of this report simply does not understand how prion diseases work. The prion simply acts as a template to cause the misfolding of existing protein, which destroys the native protein function *Point 4. *Proteins are not indestructible; they are among the most fragile biological molecules. Genetic material is much closer to indestructible, because it needs to maintain information without error. *Point 5. *There is no method of dissemination for a prion disease except eating brains, all it takes is exposure to the prion, yes, eating brains puts one at the highest risk, but it is not the only mechanism for exposure. snip (Americans do not pronounce i as e, except to glorify junk science.) now there is a forceful argument. :- one of my favorites is the things that swim in the sea- ghoti that's gh as pronounced in enough-- F o as in women-- I ti as in action-- sh ghoti Prions are proteins which supposedly cause Mad Cow Disease and variants such as Scrapies. The claim that a protein can do the same thing as infectious agents is in conflict with all scientific principles involved. no it's not, the mechanism is clear and reproducible. the native conformation of the protein is in a thermodynamically less stable shape than the prion form. All it takes is a catalyst to cause an exergonic reaction from native conformation to prion conformation etc, etc, etc. -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
