Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
OTOH, I think we in the home-brew community need to be alert for any movement on the part of the big trap grease companies to do just this. I believe they will start to feel threatened and make collection of WVO difficult by. 1. Having it legislated as a hazardous material 2. WVO will require special (expensive) equipment to collect safely 3. Companies will have to have insurance that will price us little guys out. 4. Contracts will lock in the restaurants Ever wonder why it's illegal to sell your homebrewed BD? Evergreen Solutions wrote: better than SVO. I believe in researching storage legality that BD must be treated as a Category 3 explosive, I think we'd like a reference for that. Hrm, well, I can't find what I was thinking of just now. According to this: http://www.biodieselgear.com/documentation/methanol.htm , Methanol is a class 3 hazardous material. That must be what I was thinking of. This: http://www.biodieselgear.com/documentation/MSDS_BD.pdf says BD contains no hazardous materials. My apologies for my error. That raises an interesting question still about storagesince you don't have b100 until you've removed the glycerine/methanol/ffa mix. Throw a lighted match in and the match goes out. On the other hand, try spraying it and lighting the spray. An ordinary household spray will do. (Not in your living room.) We compare the two at demos sometimes. Still no pressure like inside a diesel engine, but it makes the point. Aerosol flashing is quite interesting, no? Pretty much the same thing works with ether and, for that matter, hairspray. And again my apologies if I link too much. Sometimes I just read for hours, lol. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Zeke Yewdall wrote: I was under the impression that the viscosity reduction was the entire reason for doing transesterification. Otherwise, whats the benefit of using biodiesel instead of SVO? Much less coking. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
more cooking, less coking... : ) John Hayes wrote: Zeke Yewdall wrote: I was under the impression that the viscosity reduction was the entire reason for doing transesterification. Otherwise, whats the benefit of using biodiesel instead of SVO? Much less coking. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Evergreen Solutions wrote: I believe in researching storage legality that BD must be treated as a Category 3 explosive, you won't find such a thing w/ SVO/WVO. What!?! Biodiesel isn't even flammable, let alone explosive. Instead, it's considered a combustible liquid because the flashpoint exceeds 100F. In fact the flashpoint of biodiesel is over 150F, compared to 77F for petrodiesel. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Source? John Hayes wrote: Evergreen Solutions wrote: I believe in researching storage legality that BD must be treated as a Category 3 explosive, you won't find such a thing w/ SVO/WVO. What!?! Biodiesel isn't even flammable, let alone explosive. Instead, it's considered a combustible liquid because the flashpoint exceeds 100F. In fact the flashpoint of biodiesel is over 150F, compared to 77F for petrodiesel. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Let's leave the 80's out of this, thanks bob allen wrote: more cooking, less coking... : ) John Hayes wrote: Zeke Yewdall wrote: I was under the impression that the viscosity reduction was the entire reason for doing transesterification. Otherwise, whats the benefit of using biodiesel instead of SVO? Much less coking. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Transestherification swaps out the glycerol chain for an alcohol one w/i the molecular bond of the oil, which, like Keith said, makes it burn...or rather explode under pressure better than SVO. I believe in researching storage legality that BD must be treated as a Category 3 explosive, you won't find such a thing w/ SVO/WVO. Yikes. I wonder what gasoline is considered then. Because I have tried to set a pan of biodiesel on fire with a torch, and did not succeed. Now, theoretically, because the idea of a diesel engine is that it uses pressure instead of a spark to cause the explosion w/i the cylinder, you *could* get one to operate on a *lot* of different fuels, but it isn't recommended. Actually, according to my uncle who did his PhD on diesel engines, they run much better on ether than diesel. Of course it was $6/gallon, back when diesel was $1/gallonAnd alot of the industrial diesels for power generation are designed to run on natural gas instead of diesel, because of lower emissions and cost. I'm not sure what they do to the injection system to run a gaseous fuel in a diesel engine. And, furthermore, if reducing the viscosity of WVO was the primary goal of producing BD, there are significantly simpler, cheaper, and safer ways to do it than transestherification. Regarding the emissions of SVO, I have some EPA data from a 1974 Mercedes running on WVO that has never been published. I'll post it here if I can find it again. Some students did the testing on a senior design project that I was overseeing last year, but they didn't realize that the the test car was usually run on biodiesel blend so our base-line test might not be very meaningful. If I recall, emissions were very close to, if not higher for WVO than the base case, except for particulates, which were much less. Just my 2 cents, I'm not a pro. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Zeke Yewdallwrote: snip Regarding the emissions of SVO, I have some EPA data from a 1974 Mercedes running on WVO that has never been published. I'll post it here if I can find it again. Some students did the testing on a senior design project that I was overseeing last year, but they didn't realize that the the test car was usually run on biodiesel blend so our base-line test might not be very meaningful. If I recall, emissions were very close to, if not higher for WVO than the base case, except for particulates, which were much less. There are lots of studies here, plus an SVO emissions bibliography. Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel: References http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#refs Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Transestherification swaps out the glycerol chain for an alcohol one w/i the molecular bond of the oil, which, like Keith said, makes it burn...or rather explode under pressure That's better put, thanks. better than SVO. I believe in researching storage legality that BD must be treated as a Category 3 explosive, I think we'd like a reference for that. you won't find such a thing w/ SVO/WVO. Yikes. I wonder what gasoline is considered then. Because I have tried to set a pan of biodiesel on fire with a torch, and did not succeed. Biodiesel's so DANGerous! LOL! Throw a lighted match in and the match goes out. On the other hand, try spraying it and lighting the spray. An ordinary household spray will do. (Not in your living room.) We compare the two at demos sometimes. Still no pressure like inside a diesel engine, but it makes the point. Best Keith snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
better than SVO. I believe in researching storage legality that BD must be treated as a Category 3 explosive, I think we'd like a reference for that. Hrm, well, I can't find what I was thinking of just now. According to this: http://www.biodieselgear.com/documentation/methanol.htm , Methanol is a class 3 hazardous material. That must be what I was thinking of. This: http://www.biodieselgear.com/documentation/MSDS_BD.pdf says BD contains no hazardous materials. My apologies for my error. That raises an interesting question still about storagesince you don't have b100 until you've removed the glycerine/methanol/ffa mix. Throw a lighted match in and the match goes out. On the other hand,try spraying it and lighting the spray. An ordinary household spray will do. (Not in your living room.) We compare the two at demossometimes. Still no pressure like inside a diesel engine, but itmakes the point. Aerosol flashing is quite interesting, no? Pretty much the same thing works with ether and, for that matter, hairspray. And again my apologies if I link too much. Sometimes I just read for hours, lol. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Fritz, The answer to your first question is no I didn't. However it's your second question that I'm responding to. According to the link you provided, it states that it will work with biodiesel. I don't know if you really didn't look at the site or were simply trolling. As to the effacy of the device, I question it based on the statement [Biodiesel] is produced through a process which lowers the viscosity of vegetable oils, such as canola oil, allowing them to be burned in existing diesel engines without modification found under the biodiesel link on the site. Any one who has done at least a little research into the biodiesel conversion process is aware that it removes glycerin from the wvo and converts the oil into esters. Viscosity reduction may be a by product but is not why the process is done. This tells me that the company, at best, doesn't really know what it is talking about, and at worst, could be simply a scam. Regardless, knowledge is power and we could all benefit if when you post to the site, you've done some research before posting such a question. Kevin Fritz Friesinger wrote: Hallo @ all, did anyone of you know about this Tadgerdevice to enhance burning of Fuel etc.? www.tadgergroup.com http://www.tadgergroup.com would this device work with Biofuel to? thanks for your input Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
On Sep 25, 2005, at 7:15 AM, Kevin Bond wrote: As to the effacy of the device, I question it based on the statement [Biodiesel] is produced through a process which lowers the viscosity of vegetable oils, such as canola oil, allowing them to be burned in existing diesel engines without modification found under the biodiesel link on the site. Any one who has done at least a little research into the biodiesel conversion process is aware that it removes glycerin from the wvo and converts the oil into esters. Viscosity reduction may be a by product but is not why the process is done. Actually, I think that's EXACTLY why the process is done, though I haven't read and am not endorsing the claims of the site in question. Except for possible deposits and emissions from the burning of neat vegetable oil, there are few if any advantages to biodiesel other than its lower viscosity. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Any one who has done at least a little research into the biodiesel conversion process is aware that it removes glycerin from the wvo and converts the oil into esters. Viscosity reduction may be a by product but is not why the process is done. I was under the impression that the viscosity reduction was the entire reason for doing transesterification. Otherwise, whats the benefit of using biodiesel instead of SVO? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
From what I read, the device functions by assisting in dispersion of the fuel -- just like the new super high pressure CRD injection systems. So if it really does do that, I can see that it would help. However, I am a little skeptical that I can actually do this. Even assuming that it perfectly breaks up all the fuel molecules that are held to each other by intermolecular forces (hydrogen bonding, or van der wals forces? It's been too long since I took organic chemistry...), what's to keep them from going back together while the fuel travels the next few inches in the injector line before actually being injected into the cylinder. As I understand, these molecular forces are fairly fast in re-establishing their bonds (just try shaking up a glass of water and oil, and see how long till they separate again...). Am I anywhere close here? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
I'm think the other side of the story may be that they, like many large corporations, will actually talk down to potential customers, or in language the company believes will be best understood. Whether reducing viscosity or not being the original purpose, more of the non-initiated general public more likely understands it. My 2cents (like always). John On 9/25/2005, Kevin Bond [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fritz, The answer to your first question is no I didn't. However it's your second question that I'm responding to. According to the link you provided, it states that it will work with biodiesel. I don't know if you really didn't look at the site or were simply trolling. As to the effacy of the device, I question it based on the statement [Biodiesel] is produced through a process which lowers the viscosity of vegetable oils, such as canola oil, allowing them to be burned in existing diesel engines without modification found under the biodiesel link on the site. Any one who has done at least a little research into the biodiesel conversion process is aware that it removes glycerin from the wvo and converts the oil into esters. Viscosity reduction may be a by product but is not why the process is done. This tells me that the company, at best, doesn't really know what it is talking about, and at worst, could be simply a scam. Regardless, knowledge is power and we could all benefit if when you post to the site, you've done some research before posting such a question. Kevin Fritz Friesinger wrote: Hallo @ all, did anyone of you know about this Tadgerdevice to enhance burning of Fuel etc.? www.tadgergroup.com http://www.tadgergroup.com would this device work with Biofuel to? thanks for your input Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Gentlemen, I stand corrected. Kevin Zeke Yewdall wrote: Any one who has done at least a little research into the biodiesel conversion process is aware that it removes glycerin from the wvo and converts the oil into esters. Viscosity reduction may be a by product but is not why the process is done. I was under the impression that the viscosity reduction was the entire reason for doing transesterification. Otherwise, whats the benefit of using biodiesel instead of SVO? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Any one who has done at least a little research into the biodiesel conversion process is aware that it removes glycerin from the wvo and converts the oil into esters. Viscosity reduction may be a by product but is not why the process is done. I was under the impression that the viscosity reduction was the entire reason for doing transesterification. Otherwise, whats the benefit of using biodiesel instead of SVO? Re SVO, Elsbett says, Vegetable oil is hardly flammable. This is why there have to be some changes of the injection system, the glow-plugs and the control[s] - ie burning SVO needs more than just pre-heating to reduce the viscosity (the Elsbett system pre-heats it as well). Two-tank SVO systems pre-heat the SVO to 70-80 deg C (160-180 deg F) to reduce the viscosity, but it's been found that it has to be heated to 150 deg C (302 deg F) to reach the same fuel performance as petro-diesel. Biodiesel burns much better than SVO does. I agree viscosity reduction is more or less a by-product of the biodiesel process. Probably more than less, but the main purpose is to produce an excellent diesel fuel with good combustion characteristics, not just thin it down. A number of studies have found that SVO doesn't burn as cleanly as biodiesel either, at least short of a professional single-tank SVO system. IMHO some poor practices have grown from the idea that all you need to do is make it thinner, with both biodiesel and SVO. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Tadgerdevice
Transestherification swaps out the glycerol chain for an alcohol one w/i the molecular bond of the oil, which, like Keith said, makes it burn...or rather explode under pressure better than SVO. I believe in researching storage legality that BD must be treated as a Category 3 explosive, you won't find such a thing w/ SVO/WVO. AFAIK this is why BD will run in several (high pressure) diesels where SVO, even w/ a preheater, performs poorly if at all. Now, theoretically, because the idea of a diesel engine is that it uses pressure instead of a spark to cause the explosion w/i the cylinder, you *could* get one to operate on a *lot* of different fuels, but it isn't recommended. And, furthermore, if reducing the viscosity of WVO was the primary goal of producing BD, there are significantly simpler, cheaper, and safer ways to do it than transestherification. Just my 2 cents, I'm not a pro. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
