SIPs was Re: [biofuel] Re: food for thought

2004-01-01 Thread Appal Energy

Not all SIPs (structured insulated panels) are created equal

Their insulating medium and the incumbent toxic gasses that occur under
conditions of combustion should be the determining factor in what they're
constructed with. Unfortunately, it's not. Rather, the industry glosses over
such questions and goes into deflect and distract mode by explaining how
they can meet residential and commercial fire code. Well that's all well and
fine, but that's achieved by various layers of gypsum wallboard and has
nothing to do with SIPs proper.

And it still doesn't address the issue of combustion toxicity. On that
front, the closest industry gets to addressing toxic gases is the usual
short dismissal about how low the formaldehyde outgassing is, and then
pointing out that it's not a problem of the insulation, but the OSB. But no
answer on combustion gases unless you crucify them to a wall and hold a
bloody nailgun to their heads.

Expanded polystyrene may be a great insulator, but it never has been and
will continue to not be a construction medium of choice if the first thought
of what if were considered. I certainly wouldn't want to include it as a
factor if I were trying to locate a missing child or remove an unconscious
adult in a fire scenario.

Rigid polyisocyanurate foam would be a far better option, even more
attractive if it were manufactured from vegetable-oil based polyols.

But the consuming public isn't supposed to think or worry about such things.
Why?

Because We're the experts! - experts being industry and regulatory
agencies. There's probably not much comfort in that assurance after
inhaling the first lungful.

It's a valid question as to whether or not polystyrene has been included in
the primary constrution of a building and a solid reason to walk away from a
home purchase no matter how good the price.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 10:37 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: food for thought


 More and more local code enforcement agencies really are pushing every
 new building towards  higher insulation values. Only a few major
 glitches that they seem to not understand or just totally ignore.

 Tests by researchers show that fiberglass is good at 75 degrees... but
 has no insulating value at 20 degrees F.

 Second.  How much insulation value is there in a building constructed
 with Steel studs?  Even the building industry admits steel is a super
 great conductor of heat.. be it into or out of a building.  Always
 enjoy that they put batts between the studs.. and then you get a
 thermal nose bleed every 16-24 inches.
 Here is the reprint from Oakridge testing labs

 Did you know that R-Value testing is done at 72 degrees Fahrenheit
 with no infiltration/exfiltration, humidity at 40% or lower and with a
 small temperature change for a short duration?  This test, which is
 the standard R-Value test was designed when the only insulation
 material being evaluated was fiberglass.  It was developed by the
 Fiberglass industry, so it's hardly surprising that it would favor
 them.  When the conditions of the test are varied fiberglass doesn't
 do well.  For example, at 20 degrees F with 50% humidity, fiberglass
 is R-0.  EPs acually gets higher R-values as the temperatures
 decrease, and humidity does not affect it at all.  The test is an
 unreliable guide to efficiency.

 Imagine how effective insulation is when doors and windows are left
 open.  Essentially, infiltration and exfiltration issues are similar.
  Air and moisture flow through the structure greatly reduce the energy
 efficiency of the home.  SIPs address this issue better than
 conventional stick or steel frame construction.  Blower door tests
 indicate that SIPs are 20% tighter than very well built stick frame
 homes and as much as 40% tighter than most conventional construction.

 If you've ever used a space blanket, you've seen how effective
 reflective radiant sheeting can be for insulating.  Any material which
 keeps radiant energy from converting to condutive energy is considered
 good as a radiant barrier.  Stick frame, steel studs and masonry are
 all exceptionally bad at this and SIPs are good at it.

 Some materials are slow to change temperature- they have inertia to
 temperature change.   Air and metal are very bad at this and
 non-metallic solids are good at it.   SIPs are excellent insulators
 where thermal mass is a factor.

 A standard stick or steel frame wall has studs every 16, which
 translates to about 20% to 25% of the actual surface area.  Obviously
 there is no insulation where the framing is so the less framing, the
 higher the insulation efficiency.  According to Oak Ridge National
 Labs, this one issue reduces the efficiency of a wood stud wall by 33%
 and a steel stud wall by as much as 55%.  SIPs rate a 7% loss of
 efficiency.

 SIPs are generally tighter at the window connections, but teh quality
 of the window 

SIPs was Re: [biofuel] Re: food for thought

2004-01-01 Thread Steve

Well there you go. Coming up with an elegant solution ... and then
complaining about it. Geeze :) Rigid polyisocyanurate foam would be a
far better option, even more
 attractive if it were manufactured from vegetable-oil based polyols.
Happy new years to all




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Re: SIPs was Re: [biofuel] Re: food for thought

2004-01-01 Thread Appal Energy

An elegant solution achieved by using an inappropriate mix of materials is
not a solution but the creation of another problem that has to be faced
somewhere down the line.

An appropriate solution is to use the best material options in the first
place and forego the potential problem before the concept ever gets off the
drafting table.

To say that acknowleding a patent flaw and making it known is complaining
about it sounds almost as if you're suggesting that everyone is supposed to
just turn their head and pretend the flaw doesn't exist.

Styrene is far more flammable and far more toxic (both in its manufacture
and combustion) than isocyanurate. Backyard proof of that is as simple as
putting a plumber's torch to a block of each.

When there exists a less threatening option and that option is not used,
especially when that option is cost comparative, there's even greater reason
to question what the motivating forces are behind the choices. Concern for
the overall health and well being of the end user or anyone who may be
exposed to a fire environment where styrene is present is not one of them.

That's not whining. That's basis in fact.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:51 AM
Subject: SIPs was Re: [biofuel] Re: food for thought


 Well there you go. Coming up with an elegant solution ... and then
 complaining about it. Geeze :) Rigid polyisocyanurate foam would be a
 far better option, even more
  attractive if it were manufactured from vegetable-oil based polyols.
 Happy new years to all




 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

 Biofuels list archives:
 http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel

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