Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
You're welcome. Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ryan Keith wrote: And there are people who demand to know: "What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???", which usually turns out to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored. Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that I wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this list if it weren't for the political discussion. I live in the South Dakota, USA. Most people here are Red state type of people who don't want change as long as there is a conservative in office pretending he/she cares. I love that we can all speak freely, and I especially love that I can read what people from around the world think, especially about America...I agree with most of them. I am also thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed to this information otherwise. This list has changed my world view for the better. Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all the contributers. Thanks so much for taking the time to say so, it's much appreciated, and you're most welcome. Best wishes Keith Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hallo Keith, Friends, Thursday, 07 July, 2005, 17:19:26, you wrote: ...snip... >>You will notice that Keith, for instance, seems to offer solutions. KA> ... thanks for saying so! Though not always, I can be "negative" too KA> where necessary, but I do try to point to alternatives. More than KA> that I'd say I'm trying to provide useful information. This forum and KA> these issues are all about empowerment, IMHO, but there's hundreds of KA> billions spent every year on PR, advertising and all the other forms KA> of message massage to try to prevent exactly that, empowerment. And KA> perhaps especially around anything to do with fossil-fuels. Lots of KA> blind alleys, much confusion and frustration, and here in the KA> Information Age most of the information is just noise and smoke to KA> keep you baffled. Good information helps, it's empowering. ...snip... I have only been reading sporadically as I am not yet fully shipshape and Bristol fashion but there is a place for people who recognize the problems and point them out without solutions as long as they are just doing that, pointing the problems out, recognizing them, but not attacking randomly. Sometimes we have a difficult time even recognizing the real root cause of something and we go for treating symptoms rather than curing the disease. It is a matter of how and why it is done, of whether it is to help as one is able or to attack, criticize and defend a partisan position. Makes a world of difference. It's sort of like automobile electrics. It may help to change the bad bulb repeatedly but the problem won't be fixed until you find the short and repair that and then replace the bulb. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hi Ryan Keith wrote: And there are people who demand to know: "What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???", which usually turns out to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored. Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that I wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this list if it weren't for the political discussion. I live in the South Dakota, USA. Most people here are Red state type of people who don't want change as long as there is a conservative in office pretending he/she cares. I love that we can all speak freely, and I especially love that I can read what people from around the world think, especially about America...I agree with most of them. I am also thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed to this information otherwise. This list has changed my world view for the better. Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all the contributers. Thanks so much for taking the time to say so, it's much appreciated, and you're most welcome. Best wishes Keith Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Keith wrote: And there are people who demand to know: "What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???", which usually turns out to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored. Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that I wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this list if it weren't for the political discussion. I live in the South Dakota, USA. Most people here are Red state type of people who don't want change as long as there is a conservative in office pretending he/she cares. I love that we can all speak freely, and I especially love that I can read what people from around the world think, especially about America...I agree with most of them. I am also thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed to this information otherwise. This list has changed my world view for the better. Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all the contributers. Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hello Wes I agree with you, sort of, but it's quite difficult. For my part... You will notice that Keith, for instance, seems to offer solutions. ... thanks for saying so! Though not always, I can be "negative" too where necessary, but I do try to point to alternatives. More than that I'd say I'm trying to provide useful information. This forum and these issues are all about empowerment, IMHO, but there's hundreds of billions spent every year on PR, advertising and all the other forms of message massage to try to prevent exactly that, empowerment. And perhaps especially around anything to do with fossil-fuels. Lots of blind alleys, much confusion and frustration, and here in the Information Age most of the information is just noise and smoke to keep you baffled. Good information helps, it's empowering. I think I am seeing a pattern here. I have noticed that some folks seem to think that whatever is being done is bad... end of story . not just in this forum, but it seems to be abundant here. I don't think the everything's-bad outlook is abundant here. Mostly with these discussions, regardless of how it starts on any one occasion, it doesn't just go round and round in a sterile circle, it goes somewhere, people share their views and it changes their outlook. Many people here will tell you that. Or they've told me that anyway, and said so onlist too, some of them. I would like to suggest to anyone who witnesses this tendency that they withhold criticism until they feel they can offer a solution. But such "criticism" can contribute to finding a solution. Criticism is such a loaded word, it's come to mean "negative criticism", otherwise you have to specify "positive criticism". A critical appraisal is an attempt to be objective, it's not positive or negative in itself, though its findings might be. We don't get very far in any of these issues without a critical appraisal that's as honest and probing as we can make it. When we work together it's easier to overcome each other's blind spots and "delicate sensibilities". A list member's initial criticisms might be negative and despairing, but if he's open to discussion he might end up better informed with a more constructive outlook, and even if not he might enrich the discussion no matter how negative he is. A previous member here attacked us for being "too rigorous", she said we should have more respect for some people's (yes) "delicate sensibilities". She kept saying there are very negative people here, yet they were often the ones offering what you're calling constructive solutions. Her idea of being "negative" was even to discuss issues with a downside to them, a positive attitude was just to blind-eye the downside and rely on sheer bubbling optimistic positiveness to conquer all, or something like that anyway. Very negative attitude, I thought, and I wasn't the only one. There are also people who say we "hate Americans" and we're "US bashers", they won't stand for any criticism of America, even when it's American members who're doing it. And there are people who demand to know: "What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???", which usually turns out to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored. These last two are inclined to lash out when they encounter something that doesn't fit their world view, discussion is usually futile or worse. Different as they are, what all four cases have in common, including yours, is that they're all calling for restricted discussion, and that won't happen. The list as a whole decided that for themselves more than four years ago, and it's been constantly reaffirmed since then. The List rules say this: "There aren't a lot of rules, but that is one of them: no calls for restricted discussion. It's a discussion list, not a less-discussion list." The List rules are here: http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-May/07.html Please take note Wes. I try to exercise this method with myself, and I suggest it may be helpful to others. You will notice that Keith, for instance, seems to offer solutions. Others can only describe what they feel is wrong with the system. Well, step by step. You have to identify the problems before you can solve them. More important is what it amounts to in the end - does it lead to solutions being applied or just more whingeing? Often it does lead on to something constructive, there are plenty of examples of it. This is not a complete solution to a negative personality, but should go a long way in making life more pleasant for all. I enjoy the constructive criticism and solutions offered here, but am slightly frustrated when folks endlessly tell us that everything in the world is wrong. Not endlessly, not everything in the world. Two sides of a coin, if you took it away I wonder how much less constructive criticism and solutions the
