Re: [SWCollect] Shock
Yep. It's still there: http://www.mobygames.com/featured_article/feature,7/ Will probably be there until the end of time. :-) Thanks, Jim. /Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Shock
Hugh Falk boldly stated: 2) It only took between 1 and 4 people to create a game in the early to mid 80's. Back in the days of Atari (2600), authors received no credit at all. Well, it started out that way, anyway. One of the primary reasons Activision (the first third party 2600 game publisher) was founded was so game creators could get credit for their games. Of course, I should point out that the reason Atari and Mattel didn't originally put creators names on games was because they were worried about each other stealing their employees. That's why the Mattel's Intellivision programmers were only known as the Blue Sky Rangers. (See www.intellivisionlives.com.) -- Lee K. Seitz * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/ Wanted: Vintage Pac-M*n necktie (The asterisk is to keep from mucking up people's Usenet search results. Replace it with an a, if you didn't know.) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Shock
Alexander Zoller wrote: Hey, it's greatly appreciated. You seem to know a lot more about this than I do. I think I was reading an article from you about this sometime ago, don't remember where. A MobyGames essay perhaps? Yep. It's still there: http://www.mobygames.com/featured_article/feature,7/ Will probably be there until the end of time. :-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Shock
Hugh Falk wrote: Games don't have to cost that much. When they do it's generally because BTW, Ultima 9 didn't cost $30mil to make, it was more like $6mil (if you don't count Garriott's salary; $8.5 mil if you do). This is because it had a development period of almost 3 years. Games with development periods of more than 18 months almost always fail (Daikatana, etc.) It is a rare exception when they succeed (Max Payne, Black White) and they usually do only because they have some element of gameplay or premise (or both) that is either wildly original (Black White) or has near-flawless execution (Max Payne). -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Shock
The following story shocked me as a collector, and most of all, as an Ultima fan. I wouldn't be too concerned. Peroxide contacted EA in a proper way, and received absolutely no response. As by copyright statutes, the rights holder has to enforce ownership of their intellectual property, or it will become public domain. They cannot simply stomp on an unlicensed project after they tolerated it for a long time. If the rights owner fails to respond to a letter in which the project was brought to their attention, their unspoken agreement can be assumed. They have to reply, or otherwise they are NOT properly enforcing their claim of ownership. A legal statement published on, say, their official website is not sufficient. TSR made that claim when clashing with a German Baldur's Gate fanpage, and they lost. As for the use of copyrighted material (which cannot become public domain), this is loosely covered by Title 17, Section 107 of the US Code, the so-called 'Fair Use' agreement: http://liiwarwick.warwick.ac.uk/uscode/17/107.html. /Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Shock
It wasn't the issue with Peroxyde that shocked me. It was the metaphor about Toto (a dog) and Richard Garriott. He did make those games, and he was a dedicated employee after all, I'd say he deserves at least a bit more respect! Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] So long, and thanks for all the fish Alexander Zoller [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/01 11:02 Solicita-se resposta a swcollect Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] A/C: Ref: cc: Assunto: Re: [SWCollect] Shock The following story shocked me as a collector, and most of all, as an Ultima fan. I wouldn't be too concerned. Peroxide contacted EA in a proper way, and received absolutely no response. As by copyright statutes, the rights holder has to enforce ownership of their intellectual property, or it will become public domain. They cannot simply stomp on an unlicensed project after they tolerated it for a long time. If the rights owner fails to respond to a letter in which the project was brought to their attention, their unspoken agreement can be assumed. They have to reply, or otherwise they are NOT properly enforcing their claim of ownership. A legal statement published on, say, their official website is not sufficient. TSR made that claim when clashing with a German Baldur's Gate fanpage, and they lost. As for the use of copyrighted material (which cannot become public domain), this is loosely covered by Title 17, Section 107 of the US Code, the so-called 'Fair Use' agreement: http://liiwarwick.warwick.ac.uk/uscode/17/107.html. /Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] Shock
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg newsgroup. The subject was Richard Garriott = Toto, one of the messages had the link to the page... let's see if I can find it... OK, found it: http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,47624,00.html Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] So long, and thanks for all the fish Hugh Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/01 13:01 Solicita-se resposta a swcollect Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] A/C: Ref: cc: Assunto: RE: [SWCollect] Shock That's a great (and horrible) quote. Where did you see it? Hugh -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Shock Hi everyone. The following story shocked me as a collector, and most of all, as an Ultima fan. I had little to no consideration for Electronic Arts. Now I have even less, if that's possible. For those that do not know, Electronic Arts acquired Origin back in 1993 or 1994. Origin was a successful company, thanks to games like the Wing Commander series, or the Ultima series. Richard Garriott, creator of the Ultima series, was its founder and owner. Anyway, early this year, Electronic Arts sacked Richard Garriott and most of the Origin staff, keeping the rights to the Ultima names and games. More recently, a group of danish programmers (Peroxyde) started creating a 3d remake of Ultima 1, to be distributed freely. They have contacted Richard Garriott, he said it was fine by him, as long as they wouldn't make money out of it. Then they have contacted EA... this is what Jeff Brown, EA spokesman, said about the subject: EA owns the rights to Ultima and all of its characters, and in this case, no permission was requested or granted. As for Richard Garriott's approval, that's like getting permission from Toto to remake The Wizard of Oz. If this guy worked for me, he'd get sacked the very same day. But hey, it's EA... Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] So long, and thanks for all the fish http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ http
RE: [SWCollect] Shock
Great...thank you. -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 8:17 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Shock comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg newsgroup. The subject was Richard Garriott = Toto, one of the messages had the link to the page... let's see if I can find it... OK, found it: http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,47624,00.html Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] So long, and thanks for all the fish Hugh Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/01 13:01 Solicita-se resposta a swcollect Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] A/C: Ref: cc: Assunto: RE: [SWCollect] Shock That's a great (and horrible) quote. Where did you see it? Hugh -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Shock Hi everyone. The following story shocked me as a collector, and most of all, as an Ultima fan. I had little to no consideration for Electronic Arts. Now I have even less, if that's possible. For those that do not know, Electronic Arts acquired Origin back in 1993 or 1994. Origin was a successful company, thanks to games like the Wing Commander series, or the Ultima series. Richard Garriott, creator of the Ultima series, was its founder and owner. Anyway, early this year, Electronic Arts sacked Richard Garriott and most of the Origin staff, keeping the rights to the Ultima names and games. More recently, a group of danish programmers (Peroxyde) started creating a 3d remake of Ultima 1, to be distributed freely. They have contacted Richard Garriott, he said it was fine by him, as long as they wouldn't make money out of it. Then they have contacted EA... this is what Jeff Brown, EA spokesman, said about the subject: EA owns the rights to Ultima and all of its characters, and in this case, no permission was requested or granted. As for Richard Garriott's approval, that's like getting permission from Toto to remake The Wizard of Oz. If this guy worked for me, he'd get sacked the very same day. But hey, it's EA... Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] So long, and thanks for all the fish http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Shock
Pedro Quaresma wrote: Jim Leonard wrote: (Don't ask me about my role in creating Abandonware, that's a topic for another time) What's your role in creating Abandonware? :) Seriously, I'd really like to know. Well, let me check the date... Hasn't been 5 years, but what the hell: In March of 1997, Peter Ringering started a small website with links to about 10 other people who had websites with software up for download. He coined the term Abandonware because he thought it was okay to distribute software that had been abandoned, and his website was an unofficial webring. I was one of those sites, but I had more software available on my site than all of the other sites in the ring combined. I also had decent presentation, access to other materials (manuals, cover scans, screenshots, etc.) and other elements that most abandonware sites today take for granted. I virus-scanned my files, I cracked them *properly* (ie all video and sound options were available, even Tandy/PCjr, in everything I released), my website was database-driven, etc. I was years ahead of everyone else in the ring, and set an example to the other sites. I also created the Abandonware Ring Mailing List, and created a search engine that allowed you to locate any game by filename or title on any of the ring websites (and the search engine did *not* require their involvement, it indexed their sites automatically regardless of format). All of this solidified the Ring and kept the Abandonware concept moving forward. I proved that things like Rings and content-specific search engines could work, so if you want to blame the current state of Abandonware on me, go right ahead ;-) By October of 1997, the IDSA sent me a cease and desist letter, which I had to comply with or be faced with jail time. So I shut down the entire thing. Shortly before I did, a couple of punk kids leeched my entire site to start their own, so you can still see Trixter's Abandonware Archive messages in files floating around out there. In 1999, MobyGames surfaced, not by coincidence. MobyGames started life as a design document in early 1998 that illustrated the end-all be-all #1 killer abandonware website -- but *without* the games. No more jail time for me, thank you very much. MobyGames has grown from that original design document, but as you can see a heavy AB flavor remains. Today, I am against Abandonware. Not against distributing old games, but against the name Abandonware and the unofficial code of honor that I used to delude myself with. The entire presentation -- this software has been 'abandoned' so it should be free! -- is just stupid. It's old warez, plain and simple! Don't hide that fact, go nuts and offer up everything for download! What you're doing is illegal regardless of how you want to sugercoat it, so why not just do whatever you want? Not offering up EA or Activision games? Why the hell not? It's warez, go crazy! Are you worried about going to jail or getting sued? Well, just because you disallow IDSA companies' games on your website doesn't mean you can't get sued by the original copyright holder. It's a false sense of security, something we need even less of thanks to the current state of terrorism. I'm not against distributing old software, but I wish I could kill the Abandonware monster I created. I wish it were just out in the open, oldwarez, no restrictions, no fooling anyone. Out of the closet, if you will. I even hate the term Peter coined -- Abandonware sounds so dorky. Peter Ringering was a well-meaning individual, but he had absolutely no knowledge of the warez scene (he was a 40-year-old extremely devout Christian) and absolutely no legal knowledge whatsoever to back up any flimsy claim of it's been 'abandoned' for 5 years so it's okay to distribute. If he weren't involved, I believe a better scene, more underground and more fruitful, would have been created (the movement for such a scene on #oldwarez and other venues had been in the works since 1995). Abandonware needs to die and oldwarez needs to spring up in its place. Just my $0.02. Underdogs (www.theunderdogs.org) is the only AB website up currently that I consider a massive improvement on what I originally offered in 1997. I still have all my old files and code; I am half-tempted to recreate my old AB site as a historical relic. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Shock
The intellectual property owner has a very long period with which to enforce their brand. Interesting. So when does this period start? Once the product has been brought to the attention of the rights owner, or once it has been made available to the public? I am not saying all this to be difficult, or even because I think it's right. Hey, it's greatly appreciated. You seem to know a lot more about this than I do. I think I was reading an article from you about this sometime ago, don't remember where. A MobyGames essay perhaps? /Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Shock
In a message dated 11/02/2001 6:19:09 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Remember when EA still used to present the makers of a game as ARTISTS? We've come a long way. Sarcasm of course, you mean we've fallen a long ways. Yes the Bard's Tale series, they would do a bit of a profile on the box/folder about the designers of the game. Guess the corporations are losing sight of who actually makes the money for them. Tom
Re: [SWCollect] Shock
In a message dated 11/02/2001 6:06:44 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: aising them to star status would only demoralize the dozens of other people that worked just as hard (if not harder) and had to be just as creative in order to make a game. I suppose so but I enjoyed seeing stuff about the actual designer of the game in the old days, ie Faery Tale Adventure had some nice pics of the development team, they even dressed up. But you are correct, it is much different now, was told the reason they don't make RPGs like UIV,V anymore is it costs too much, 10 million and up to make that type of game (was actually told more like 30 mil but not sure that would be true) So now you get 3+ CDs with a bunch of graphic fluff, IMHO :) Tom -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
