t-and-f: LA Times' take on Glickman
Y ask Y: Alan Abrahamson of LA Times (see http://www.latimes.com/sports/times/20010105/t01145.html) offers an interesting angle on Glickman 1936 story: Owens told Johnson, "Probably if Glickman and Stoller had been from USC, they'd have run the relay." And Mack Robinson's wife, Delano, said in a 1996 interview with The Times that her husband "always talked about [Glickman], how he and Sam Stoller were left off the relay team because they were Jewish so that the two SC guys could get a gold medal." Was it then blatant anti-Semitism--and nothing more? "Of course I'm convinced it was the Jewish thing that was behind it. Glickman and Stoller should have run," Metcalfe told Johnson. In the same book, Wykoff says, "Down in my heart, I think it was done the way it was because of the Jewish thing. I'm sorry, but I believe that." Stoller died in 1983. Glickman was the last living link to the event. In his 1996 autobiography, Glickman says he initially believed the USC connection was to blame. But he came to conclude as well that anti-Semitism was a "motivating factor." He maintained that Brundage--who would go on to be president of the International Olympic Committee--and Cromwell were sympathetic to Hitler and did not wish to "further embarrass their Nazi friends" with triumphant Jewish athletes. The puzzle with that allegation, Olympic historian John Lucas said Thursday, is this: "What profit would it have been for Dean Cromwell or the [American] Olympic Committee or Avery Brundage to replace two Jews with two blacks?" Lucas, a Penn State professor, said, "I have no answer." While finding no written proof that Glickman and Stoller were kept out of the relay because of anti-Semitism, in 1998 the U.S. Olympic Committee presented Glickman with an award in lieu of a gold medal. Bill Hybl, then the USOC president, said Thursday, "We tried to set the record straight." Ken Stone http://www.mastersflack.com
t-and-f: Armory Track Webcasts
In a joint venture among TrackMeets.com, the Armory Track and Fordham High School, students from Fordham's A/V club with technical support from TrackMeets.com will webcast live a number of track meets from the 168th Armory in New York starting with today's Hispanic Games. DR KAMAL JABBOUR - Engineer, Educator, Runner, WriterO o 2-222 Center for Science and Technology /|\/ |\ Syracuse University, Syracuse NY 13244-4100 | | Phone 315-443-3000, Fax 315-443-2583 __/ \ \/ \ http://running.syr.edu/jabbour.html\ \
Re: t-and-f: Coaching selections
In a message dated Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:06:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dgs1170 writes: When is the issue due out? Let me guess, the AOY will be Marion Jones. Am I close? Hahahaha!!! And the AOY, will be Alekna. We'll start posting AOY and Rankings highlights on the TFN site in the middle of the week. Anybody want to bet that Darrell is wrong about Marion? Anybody want to bet that he's right about Alekna? gh (off to the Black Hole!)
t-and-f: Unusual names in our sport
Sophomore Destany Clearly (Fall River High School, McArthur, CA) won the Northern Section 400 meters in 1:00.32 in May, 2000. She placed 24th overall in the State Meet Preliminaries at :59.93. I wonder if she sees her destiny clearly. Keith Conning Vacaville
t-and-f: Clubs
Conway, For the most part, the Club system in the US is non-existent. There are a few milling around, Indiana Invaders is a good example, but for the most part there is nothing going on. That is THE problem w/ TF is the US. This is the reason that a USATF National Club Championship was added this year. MJR
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
Part of the problem in the US is the notion that ideas can be force fed to the masses, or that the ideas must evolve from the office. In any organization the most important part is the grass roots division. In track the grass roots division is waiting for the executives to give them the ideas and plans. We are not developed enough as a business to expect such occurrences. The club system will develop out of individual groups banning together. HSI, Dan Pfaff's group, Trevor's menagerie, these are the beginnings of the club system. There are others out there like the Fila team, and the Enclave, and over time we will see the formation of formal competitions. But it will come out of what is, not what should be. The unique nature of our sport prevents a traditional start, but it does not prevent the development. I think we will see groups grow as the sport continues to become more and more professional. As the structure of track and field solidifies so will the athletes. The topsy turvy nature of track prevents group thought, right now. But security, and success will cure that. DGS The G.O.A.T.
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
In a message dated 1/6/01 3:16:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, In a message dated 1/6/01 3:16:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For the most part, the Club system in the US is non-existent. There are a few milling around, Indiana Invaders is a good example, but for the most part there is nothing going on. That is THE problem w/ TF is the US. This is the reason that a USATF National Club Championship was added this year. MJR Wrong! Three times. 1) Clubs are very existent and are all over the country. 2) And the club championships were instituted many years before this year. 3) The club system or lack thereof is not THE problem with TF. Mike Platt
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
Darrell, I agree that the club system cannot wait for Indy to do something, it must go for its own gold. That said, the Nat Club Champs is a great idea, one I've been behind for some time. We also need to go at this from a professional viewpoint, which means corporate sponsorship, etc. Additionally, this also means that the coaching staff involved must be full-time paid. Until this happens, track coaches on all levels being treated with the financial respect that tennis or skating coaches get, we cannot expect that our clubs will get any respect from sponsors or the media. This club system can benefit most from a structured regional/national schedule. Team scores must be kept and promoted to the hilt, and a complete event schedule should be followed as often as possible (get some walks in there too!!). As for the grass roots division, it should not be creating anything for anyone. Instead it should be administrative and perform fundraising/publicity functions locally and nationally. My greatest beef with Indy in this area, is the comment that no major sponsor will support the Associations, with Adidas only wanting to fund the national meet. The only reason this is true, is that no one has asked the right questions and given the right proposal to them. If Adidas knew the benefits, they'd jump in a second, but no one wants to tell them. MJR
Re: t-and-f: Unusual names in our sport
How about former Cal Irvine runner Buffy Rabbit!! Dan Doherty - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 2:31 PM Subject: t-and-f: Unusual names in our sport Sophomore Destany Clearly (Fall River High School, McArthur, CA) won the Northern Section 400 meters in 1:00.32 in May, 2000. She placed 24th overall in the State Meet Preliminaries at :59.93. I wonder if she sees her destiny clearly. Keith Conning Vacaville
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
Netters Mike Platt wrote: Wrong! Three times. 1) Clubs are very existent and are all over the country. 2) And the club championships were instituted many years before this year. 3) The club system or lack thereof is not THE problem with TF. Mike would you then please enlighten me as to what clubs there are and why the lack of a support system of 22-32 sub elite athletes and elite athletes who don't go to college is not a problem? I don't count groups such as shoe company teams and HSI as "clubs" (no offence Darrell.) To my knowledge NYAC still has athletes, the Indiana Invaders too. And GBTC though NYAC doesn't provide coaching per say and involves many sports. And to be clear, a club system would provide for travel, coaching and a facility. Thanks
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
For the most part I agree with both Mike and Darrell. The club system needs to begin at the grass roots and work its way up. Both on the national level and the local level, USATF needs to get fully behind this and help support and stimulate local club development. This means building on existing programs and creating an environment where club development can occur. Those of us on the USATF associations committee have been shouting this at the rest of the organization until we're blue in the face, but priorities are always elsewhere. A lot of people say that they are for grass roots, but actions speak louder than words. What does grass roots mean? Welll, it means that most of the focus AND a significant portion of the funds go towards local programs and particularly youth programs. The only disagreement I have with Darrell is that the clubs he mentioned - HSI, the Enclave, etc - are decidedly not grass roots. These clubs are nationally oriented. That's not to knock them - they are great and are examples of some of the few good club-related things that have happened in spite of a lack of support from the governing body. But they are not grass roots. Grass roots is numerous competitive, thriving adult and youth track clubs in every city. Grass roots is "Little League" track and field. Grass roots is masters and non-elite open competition. Most importantly, grass roots is about having track field (and cross country amd race walking) visible on the local level everywhere. Mike Roth is absolutely right about the fact that sponsors would be forthcoming for grass roots programs/clubs if the focus at the national level was on grass roots. In addition to "elite" exposure, sponsors like demographics and numbers and even the poorly organized existing programs have that. It's a matter of how you package it and approach it. And there is no longer the excuse that USOC funds cannot be used for grass roots. The changes in the method of allocating USOC funds leaves a lot more room for grass roots development - if the organization chooses to make it a priority. Unfortunately, I doubt that we can even agree on what constitutes grass roots programs, let alone decide to shift funds from the elite to grass roots or really focus on grass roots sponsors. Barring a lot of luck, the elite are going to have to give up something in order to spend money on grass roots. Even taking the focus away from the elites to focus on getting money for grass roots would result in some loss to the elites. Who thinks this will actually happen? - ed Parrot
t-and-f: Owens' OSU LJ record revisited and select results from the OSU Invitational
Hi all, Just got back from Ohio State'sFrench Fieldhouse, where a display in the lobby listsJoe Greene's wind-aided 27-7+ from the 1989 NCAAs as theBuckeye outdoor LJ record ! I don't understand... Some quick results Ohio State junior Katy Craig spun a 64-3.25 (19.59)auto qualifier in the Wt., setting a new Ohio Collegiate record, topping Rebecca Ball's (Ashland) 62-8.5 from 1992. A PR for Craig by nearly 5 feet. Buckeye senior All-American Donica Merrimanwon the 60 (7.48), 200 (24.90) and the 60H, Andrew Pierce took the 200/400 in 22.01 and 47.6ish a day after passing his commercial pilot's exams, Ian Connor easy 3000 win in 8:48... -| Bob Ramsak| TRACK PROFILE/OHIO Track Running Report | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| Cleveland, Ohio USA- ## Sign up for aFREE trial subscription to the OHIO Track Running Reportat http://www.trackprofile.com## -
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
In a message dated 1/6/01 8:16:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mike would you then please enlighten me as to what clubs there are and why the lack of a support system of 22-32 sub elite athletes and elite athletes who don't go to college is not a problem? I don't count groups such as shoe company teams and HSI as "clubs" (no offence Darrell.) To my knowledge NYAC still has athletes, the Indiana Invaders too. And GBTC though NYAC doesn't provide coaching per say and involves many sports. And to be clear, a club system would provide for travel, coaching and a facility. Thanks Let me step back a bit and say on the East coast track and field is not dead. I do not get out west but I am aware of many clubs between here and the West coast that organize runners and track athletes under the umbrella of a club. They provide support and coaching. I belong to the Syracuse Chargers. We have nearly 1500 members that include a wide range of athletes from kids to 85-90 year old competing athletes. We have an elite team that competes in local and national track meets. We field a cross country team that competes in the National Club championships as well as other regional and nationally recognized meets. I could compete in an indoor or outdoor track meet nearly every weekend from now until July all within driving distance. While the Chargers are primarily recreational athletes the competition is quite serious and would enable a developing athlete to have a nice base from which to grow from into a world class athlete. Put it this way, I still am a low 2:20 marathoner and I just barely make the traveling squad. In Rochester (another upstate city) there are 3 large clubs that support many track athletes as well as cross country athletes. Buffalo has some nice clubs as well. Boston and New England is filled with clubs that provide coaching and support for young athletes. There are indoor and outdoor facilities available in Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo as well as many other cities here in the East. Coaching is always available. Most of the clubs I know do provide for travel to many track meets and races. The local USATF association has provided some funds for young developing athletes beyond what the club provides. While these types of clubs may not be evenly distributed throughout the country that is not a fair criticism. This is a huge country, you will never entirely blanket it with strong clubs. So what, move. With all this said I can speak from experience that if you really want to make it as an athlete, the fact that you don't have money thrown at you is no excuse. You can spend 4-6 years in college and get a chance to compete at an extremely high level with great facilities and competitive opportunities. If you show a hint of potential live at home for a couple of years or move to an area where a bunch of people share a house. (this exists now as it always has). That should get you to 26-27 years old, if you have not made your mark by then you probably never will. If you do get to the elite level worthy of world class distinction then there is support. If you have world class potential and you have the desire to make it you could get started from here. NO excuses. As far as club nationals, I was referring to the cross country nationals which have been in existence for many years now. If you were speaking of track club nationals I apologize. Track dead? not where I sit, is it the NFL? Heck no, it never will be. Mike
Re: t-and-f: Owens' OSU LJ record revisited and select results from the OSUInvitational
Earlier today, Bob Ramsak wrote, Hi all, Just got back from Ohio State's French Fieldhouse, where a display in the lobby lists Joe Greene's wind-aided 27-7+ from the 1989 NCAAs as the Buckeye outdoor LJ record !I don't understand... That leaves me wondering when wind measurements became a part of the rules governing acceptance of records in the sprints, hurdles and horizontal jumps. I can see a certain logic in Ohio State deciding that if Jesse Owens' PR wasn't subject to wind-aiding rules, Joe Greene's shouldn't either. (A more usual resolution might be to asterisk Owens' mark and disqualify Green's.) In any event, that explanation would fail, if Owens' jump, in 1935, was subject to helping-wind measurement. Can anyone tell us when that rule came into effect, in world competition and in the NCAA? Cheers, Roger
Re: t-and-f: LA Times' take on Glickman
The puzzle with that allegation, Olympic historian John Lucas said Thursday, is this: "What profit would it have been for Dean Cromwell or the [American] Olympic Committee or Avery Brundage to replace two Jews with two blacks?" Lucas, a Penn State professor, said, "I have no answer." A few years ago, I heard a theory on the answer to this intriguing question. At least, if the first assumption holds that Brundage somehow had Cromwell under his thumb, and Brundage was trying to appease the Nazis. So the extended question then becomes, why would the NAZIS want to have the Americans replace two Jews with two blacks? The answer posited, if true, is unfortunately a bit ugly, but then we can't expect much historically from the Nazi's, can we? It seems that the Propaganda Ministry, along with racial "experts" employed by the S.S., felt that they had to have a pseudo-scientific basis for almost every racial policy they wanted to impose. The question- 'Why is it okay for the best athletes that Germany can develop to lose to negro sprinters, at the same time that Jews have been thrown out of German clubs and excluded from championship meets? Are negroes more acceptable on a human racial "scale" than Jews?' The answer (my paraphrase from what I can recall)- "Jews are indeed the lowest on the human racial scale [with Aryans, of course, at the other end of the scale]. Any kind of interaction with Jews is unacceptable. Negroes, on the hand, are not human. They are of a completely different, inferior, genetic class. Current [1936] Olympic standards allow their entry. There is no more shame in German sprinters losing a race to a negro than in losing a race to a cheetah, a leopard, or a thoroughbred horse. It is believed that all future Olympic Games will be held in Nuremberg once the new 400,000 seat stadium is completed in about 1943. At that time, non-human species such as negroes will be excluded, along with all non-Aryan human races." Anyway, that's how the story went. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. RT
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
Boston and New England is filled with clubs that provide coaching and support for young athletes. There are indoor and outdoor facilities available in Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo as well as many other cities here in the East. Coaching is always available. Most of the clubs I know do provide for travel to many track meets and races. The local USATF association has provided some funds for young developing athletes beyond what the club provides. While these types of clubs may not be evenly distributed throughout the country that is not a fair criticism. This is a huge country, you will never entirely blanket it with strong clubs. So what, move. If any local USATf association is providing meaningful amounts to clubs, I would be shocked to hear about it. And the contention that New England is "filled with clubs that provide coaching and support" is obviously a matter of perspective. Yes, there are a few dozen youth clubs that serve a population of numerous millions. Most of these have no support in terms of funding and simply provide coaching to anywhere from a dozen to a few hundred athletes. How does that compare to soccer or baseball or football, or even swimming, where there are programs everywhere (at least in New England). And with due respect to the Syracuse Chargers, who are clearly one of the best clubs in the nation, there are very few clubs in New England and New York that provide significant financial support. It would be stupid for many people to move just for some coaching, a few pairs of shoes and two plane tickets per year. With all this said I can speak from experience that if you really want to make it as an athlete, the fact that you don't have money thrown at you is no excuse. You can spend 4-6 years in college and get a chance to compete at an extremely high level with great facilities and competitive opportunities. If you show a hint of potential live at home for a couple of years or move to an area where a bunch of people share a house. (this exists now as it always has). That should get you to 26-27 years old, if you have not made your mark by then you probably never will. If you do get to the elite level worthy of world class distinction then there is support. Continuing to suggest that Americans suck it up and sacrifice or stop complaining is a narrow-minded, useless idea that has unfortunately gotten too much play among well-meaning people who should know better. Those of us interested in finding real solutions instead of riding testosterone waves can certainly find better people to listen to. If you believe everything is fine - great, keep doing want you've been doing and that's one less person for us to worry about. - ed Parrot
t-and-f: Club system
As Mike Trujillo pointed out, where are the sub-elite, sub-master, local clubs? Here in the Northeast there are a few, Westchester Puma, GBTC, Reebok Boston, CMS, BAA and Greater Lowell. The one common denominator is that these clubs all have dedicated Coaches. I speak for Westchester Puma from experience, Mike Barnow is knowledgeable, always available for workouts and a great coach. He meets groups at least 5 times a week and will meet one person for a workout anytime, anywhere if you ask him. GBTC has Tom Derderian, Reebok Boston has Sev, BAA has excellent men's and women's coaches. It does not take a lot of money, although that helps. It takes a huge time commitment and dedication from a coach to get things started and it can grow from there. How many people are willing to sacrifice that much of their time for a thankless job? Only a special few. If you want to throw some money at the problems of our running in the US, throw it at the coaches, give them money to travel with athletes, give them money to make the commitment worthwhile. That is where you start. Brian Fullem
Re: t-and-f: Club system
In a message dated 1/7/01 12:39:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As Mike Trujillo pointed out, where are the sub-elite, sub-master, local clubs? Here in the Northeast there are a few, Westchester Puma, GBTC, Reebok Boston, CMS, BAA and Greater Lowell. The one common denominator is that these clubs all have dedicated Coaches. Thank you. Add that to my list of upstate NY clubs and you have ten, eleven clubs that give structure and some support. That is eleven clubs just in this part of the country. We compete against all of those clubs all winter spring and fall. Clubs are out there. If there is a problem (at least at the distances) it is with the athletes. Part of being an elite athlete is having some enterprising willingness and ability. If you really want to make it you have to sacrifice a little, maybe move, work part time get by on less. When you start to get to a national level the larger support will flow in. I guarantee if I was young again and inspired to achieve I could find support and coaching and facilities, EASILY. It may not be dropped in my lap but, it is there. Maybe there are not enough of a pool of talented kids to get results from and maybe there is not enough desire and ingenuity to get the job done. My guess is it is a combination of both.
t-and-f: NCAA ALL AMERICAN.....
Could someone please tell me (being a canuck and all) whether the NCAA has "all-american' awards for americans only? ie an american in say 40th XC overall but the 20th american would be given a special award as being an 'american all-american'. Thanks, Bomba = "Cassidy early on understood that a true runner ran even when he didn't feel like it, and raced when he was supposed to, without excuses and with nothing held back. He ran to win , would die in the process if necessary, and was unimpressed by those who disavowed such a base motivation. You are not allowed to renounce that you have never possessed, he thought." (Quenton Cassidy - 'Once a Runner') __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Owens' OSU LJ record revisited and select results from the OSU Invitational
At 07:51 PM 1/6/01 -0800, you wrote: Earlier today, Bob Ramsak wrote, Hi all, Just got back from Ohio State's French Fieldhouse, where a display in the lobby lists Joe Greene's wind-aided 27-7+ from the 1989 NCAAs as the Buckeye outdoor LJ record !I don't understand... That leaves me wondering when wind measurements became a part of the rules governing acceptance of records in the sprints, hurdles and horizontal jumps. I can see a certain logic in Ohio State deciding that if Jesse Owens' PR wasn't subject to wind-aiding rules, Joe Greene's shouldn't either. (A more usual resolution might be to asterisk Owens' mark and disqualify Green's.) In any event, that explanation would fail, if Owens' jump, in 1935, was subject to helping-wind measurement. Can anyone tell us when that rule came into effect, in world competition and in the NCAA? Cheers, Roger Although I'm sure many people know more about the history of wind readings in the sprints, hurdles and jumps, there are plenty of recorded wind readings involving world records (and presumably all the other events in the same meet) by the late 1920s. Owens' WR of 8.13m on May 25, 1935 was reported as aided by a wind of 1.3 m/s. jim dunaway
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
Another facet to this issue is where do these teams/clubs run. The teams clearly exist, but where are they supposed to compete during the summer, when the elite athletes are running 2-3 times a week? DGS The G.O.A.T.
Re: t-and-f: NCAA ALL AMERICAN.....
The funniest joke in the world. People that leave in the States cal themselves Americans, as does the rest of the world, but America is a big place. To answer the question, yes. You can finish 40th, but if 33 of the athletes in front of you are foreigners, you are an All-American. DGS The G.O.A.T.
t-and-f: re: clubs
I guarantee if I was young again and inspired to achieve I could find support and coaching and facilities, EASILY. It may not be dropped in my lap but, it is there. Maybe there are not enough of a pool of talented kids to get results from and maybe there is not enough desire and ingenuity to get the job done. My guess is it is a combination of both. I think you were missing my point, and that of the other Mikes. What is needed is a professional club with permanent paid coaching staff. Until we get to this point in club/team tf, we will remain on the fringe. Qualified coaches should be able to offer their services the same way that a skating or racquet coach does, and make the same kind of money. Track's longtime insistance that its athletes work under the sham of amatuerism is what prevents this from becoming reality. If you listen to the dopes on the boob-tube, they still propogate this theory. Until clubs/teams start to approach their tf like a business, raise funds, hire a staff, etc., we are doomed to remain in the 1930's sports model that we are still stuck in. Bill Roe, whats your 2 cents on this topic? MJR
Re: t-and-f: Re: Clubs
Mike (and all), The Club situation is one of trying to financially make it work. Here in Portland I am working on the concept of the emerging elite being part of the coaching staff for the developing athletes (youth) and getting paid as such. But still not sure of the most efficient model. We have done an analysis of the market and have found program fee incomes to be in the $200k range for all the track and field events (youth thru masters) on a yearly basis. We have not included merchandising, event promotion, education opportunities, medical facilities and entertainment opportunities. Like Brooks Johnson said in Orlando a couple of years ago, "We are sitting on a billion dollar sport, we just don't know how to manage it.. Be creative, you never know what you might come up with! Rick Baggett Willamette Striders Pole Vault Club
