Re: t-and-f: RE: T and f Baton Rouge, LA 1987
Dave, No one by that name is listed in Jack Shepard's HS Annual for either 1986 or 1987 in 100 meters. No one from that school is listed either. Andy Ferrara Eisenhower HS Houston, TX Track Team Power Ratings www.hstrack.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Jones believes she can break record
Run the 4x4! That's a hell of an interval session! David Dallman On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Kebba Tolbert wrote: An interesting story from cnnsi.com... it says Jones will run the 4x4 at Penn this weekend and **will* be doing the 100m at WC's this yr. (Earlier it had been reported that she'd be trying for the events the she hadn't won world titles in -- the duece and LJ) --Kebba == from cnnsi.com Triple Olympic gold medallist Marion Jones expects to push closer to Florence Griffith Joyner's 100-meter women's world record during her upcoming outdoor season. I'm getting tired of those 10.8s and 10.7s, Jones told Reuters in a telephone interview from Los Angeles on Monday. I touched on 10.6 last year in Stockholm with a 2.1 (an aiding wind of 2.1 meters per second) and it felt great. Now I think it's time I get more consistent with it, said the Olympic champion, whose career-best in the event is 10.65 seconds in 1998. That is going to lead, sooner or later, to the 10.5s and our ultimate goal of 10.48, if not faster. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com David Dallman CERN - SIS
RE: t-and-f: Mt. Sac Scott Davis
Scott: From this long distance (two continents and one big ocean away) , I salute what you are doing for track and field! Uri Goldbourt -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 7:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Mt. Sac Scott Davis Everyone who likes track should not only cut him some slack but get down on his/her hands and knees and thank Scott, not only for his work at Mt Sac but his generous help at every meet he attends. Without him, this sport would stick another toe in the grave. Philip Hersh Olympic Sports Writer Chicago Tribune
t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The chances of a white is about 1 in 95,000. As one would expect, very talented whites who might, if life broke their way, make it into the NBA peel away long before they have a chance to test whether they have the physical and mental attributes to make it. I would expect that the same thing is happening in distance running... Some potentially super elite whites are deciding to say, become a biker, because they look around them and all the stars are from Kenya, Ethiopia, ettc. If people were a little more educated about body type profiles and physiology, I believe far fewer talented athletes would peel away from sports or events in which they are emminently suited for. In summary, to conclude that difference at the very very top are cultural may not be supported by the weight of the evidence. Do you have any figures comparing sub 2:12, or even sub 2:10. Has that number decreased? On 4/24/01 2:47 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Derderian wrote: Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among Americas to count or even score on the Greater Boston team. That time in 2001 would have been about what Danny Reed ran for 35th place overall and 7th American. Those are the numbers. That difference IS cultural. The interesting question is why. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Jon and the list, I did not conclude that the difference at the top is cultural. I conclude that that difference in the 2:15-2:25 is cultural and I wonder why. I am not arguing with Taboo. I read it. Carefully. It makes sense. But I am trying to change the subject of discussion to the next tier of performance. I think this new issue about which none of us have researched and written a book is interesting. I will throw out a few comments about why there are fewer 2:15-2:25 guys than in the recent past: 1.Post collegians have better jobs now than were available. 2. They have to make more money to pay off college loans. 3. It costs more to live. 4. They have tiring commutes to work. 5. There are more cars on the road so running is more exhausting (pun) with death-at-your-elbow then it was in the 70's. 6. Young guys get beat by women and old men in their first road races and quit. 7. There are fewer young guys. Any one got any more? I bet we could get to 101 reasons. No single one dominates but it like death by a thousand cuts. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:39 AM Subject: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The chances of a white is about 1 in 95,000. As one would expect, very talented whites who might, if life broke their way, make it into the NBA peel away long before they have a chance to test whether they have the physical and mental attributes to make it. I would expect that the same thing is happening in distance running... Some potentially super elite whites are deciding to say, become a biker, because they look around them and all the stars are from Kenya, Ethiopia, ettc. If people were a little more educated about body type profiles and physiology, I believe far fewer talented athletes would peel away from sports or events in which they are emminently suited for. In summary, to conclude that difference at the very very top are cultural may not be supported by the weight of the evidence. Do you have any figures comparing sub 2:12, or even sub 2:10. Has that number decreased? On 4/24/01 2:47 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Derderian wrote: Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among Americas to count or even score on the Greater Boston team. That time in 2001 would have been about what Danny Reed ran for 35th place overall and 7th American. Those are the numbers. That difference IS cultural. The interesting question is why. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: national class American marathoners
At the 1983 Boston Marathon, 71 American men broke 2:20. On a single day. Last year, a total of 24 American men broke 2:20. For 366 days.(And the guy at the top was born and spent his early training years in Morocco.) Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com
RE: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Some statistics from Falmouth Road Race. Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, you just have to replace americans from 1970ies/80ies with kenyans and moroccans in 1990ies and you will have pretty much the same picture. I am sure Tom can provide similar lists for Boston Marathon. What I am interested in, is how come a little tribe called GBTC could produce so many top marathoners in the late 70ies, early 80ies? Something for anthropologists to look into... MEN 1997 Falmouth 1. Khalid Khannouchi, Morocco 31:58 2. Thomas Osano, Kenya 32:07 3. Peter Githuka, Kenya 32:22 4. Lazarus Nyakeraka, Kenya 32:28 5. James Bungei, Kenya 32:31 6. Simon Chemoiywo, Kenya 32:36 7. Hezron Otwori, Kenya 32:36 8. Joseph Kariuki, Kenya 32:39 9. Brahim Lahlafi, Morocco 32:40 10. John Kariuki, Kenya 33:05 MEN 1982 Falmouth 1. Alberto Salazar Oregon 31:53 CR 2. Craig Virgin Illinois 32:12 3. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:16 4. Mike Musyoki Kenya 32:17 5. Marc Curp Missouri 32:46 6. Dan Schlesinger No. Carolina 32:53 7. Sosthenes Bitok Kenya 33:06 8. George Malley Newton, MA 33:10 9. Bob Hodge GBTC 33:12 10. Gary Fanelli Penn. 33:13 MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 MEN Falmouth 1980 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The chances of a white is about 1 in 95,000. As one would expect, very talented whites who might, if life broke their way, make it into the NBA peel away long before they have a chance to test whether they have the physical and mental attributes to make it. I would expect that the same thing is happening in distance running... Some potentially super elite whites are deciding to say, become a biker, because they look around them and all the stars are from Kenya, Ethiopia, ettc. If people were a little more educated about body type profiles and physiology, I believe far fewer talented athletes would peel away from sports or events in which they are emminently suited for. In summary, to conclude that difference at the very very top are cultural may not be supported by the weight of the evidence. Do you have any figures comparing sub 2:12, or even sub 2:10. Has that number decreased? On 4/24/01 2:47 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Derderian wrote: Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among Americas to count or even score on the Greater Boston team. That time in 2001 would have been about what Danny Reed ran for 35th place overall and 7th American. Those are the numbers. That difference IS cultural. The interesting question is why. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
I will throw out a few comments about why there are fewer 2:15-2:25 guys than in the recent past: 1.Post collegians have better jobs now than were available. 2. They have to make more money to pay off college loans. 3. It costs more to live. 4. They have tiring commutes to work. 5. There are more cars on the road so running is more exhausting (pun) with death-at-your-elbow then it was in the 70's. 6. Young guys get beat by women and old men in their first road races and quit. 7. There are fewer young guys. The biggest two are: 1.More sedentary population. The long-term, pervasive effects of this on the DEPTH of quality runners cannot be understated. 2.Little demand for excellence in society. Rather than risk failure, we learn not to try at all. As someone who progessed through school from the late 1970's to mid 1980's, I saw first-hand how this changed. In grammar school and junior high, competing in sports was a priviledge that you had to earn, but by my senior year, it became clear that things had shifted more towards letting everyone participate. And in the classroom, things changed as well, with curves becoming more and more prevalent. I got a B in calculus at UMass based on 3 exam grades - all between 60% and 70% for 20 question multiple choice tests. I'm not proud of this fact, but I certainly would have worked harder if I had to. - Ed Parrot
RE: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, This just can't be possible. Entine said that Salazar, Durden, Rodgers, Lindsay, etc. weren't even remotely as talented as those who dominate the modern-day road racing scene. Oleg, you must have made up these times! :-} -Brian P.S. Does Salazar still hold the CR? -Original Message- From: Oleg Shpyrko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:23 AM To: Jon Entine; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Some statistics from Falmouth Road Race. Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, you just have to replace americans from 1970ies/80ies with kenyans and moroccans in 1990ies and you will have pretty much the same picture. I am sure Tom can provide similar lists for Boston Marathon. What I am interested in, is how come a little tribe called GBTC could produce so many top marathoners in the late 70ies, early 80ies? Something for anthropologists to look into... MEN 1997 Falmouth 1. Khalid Khannouchi, Morocco 31:58 2. Thomas Osano, Kenya 32:07 3. Peter Githuka, Kenya 32:22 4. Lazarus Nyakeraka, Kenya 32:28 5. James Bungei, Kenya 32:31 6. Simon Chemoiywo, Kenya 32:36 7. Hezron Otwori, Kenya 32:36 8. Joseph Kariuki, Kenya 32:39 9. Brahim Lahlafi, Morocco 32:40 10. John Kariuki, Kenya 33:05 MEN 1982 Falmouth 1. Alberto Salazar Oregon 31:53 CR 2. Craig Virgin Illinois 32:12 3. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:16 4. Mike Musyoki Kenya 32:17 5. Marc Curp Missouri 32:46 6. Dan Schlesinger No. Carolina 32:53 7. Sosthenes Bitok Kenya 33:06 8. George Malley Newton, MA 33:10 9. Bob Hodge GBTC 33:12 10. Gary Fanelli Penn. 33:13 MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 MEN Falmouth 1980 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The chances of a white is about 1 in 95,000. As one would expect, very talented whites who might, if life broke their way, make it into the NBA peel away long before they have a chance to test whether they have the physical and mental attributes to make it. I would expect that the same thing is happening in distance running... Some potentially super elite whites are deciding to say, become a biker, because they look around them and all the stars are from Kenya, Ethiopia, ettc. If people were a little more educated about body type profiles and physiology, I believe far fewer talented athletes would peel away from sports or events in which they are emminently suited for. In summary, to conclude that difference at the very very top are cultural may not be supported by the weight of the evidence. Do you have any figures comparing sub 2:12, or even sub 2:10. Has that number decreased? On 4/24/01 2:47 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Derderian wrote: Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among
t-and-f: GMC Envoy USA Outdoor Championships
The Time Schedule for the 2001 GMC Envoy USA Outdoor Track Field Championships in Eugene, Oregon, June 21-24, is now posted on the usatf.org and eugenechamps.com websites. Current housing information may also be found on the eugenechamps site. Tickets are available through Ticketmaster.com Tom Jordan Barbara Kousky Co-Meet Directors
Re: t-and-f: ...Kenyan Marathon Dominance, etc.
Jon Entine said: Salazar and Kennedy frankly DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. They are just engaging in a little self-loathing for not being able to keep up with those who, frankly, are built to run as good as or better than all but a few people in the world. Bob Kennedy is in a very good position to know EXACTLY what he is talking about when it comes to Kenyan training habits. He has spent extended periods training with them in Kenya. And he trains with some of the top Kenyans (his teammates on the Kim McDonald stable of athletes) regularly in Europe. You can read more about it at: http://www.duathlon.com/articles/215 Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
t-and-f: 100 days left to the Edmonton WC
Courtesy IAAF International Amateur Athletic Federation IN 100 DAYS IN EDMONTON A MARATHON RUNNER WILL BE THE FIRST WORLD CHAMPION OF THE NEW MILLENNIUM 25 April 2001 - MONTE CARLO - Monaco - Today, in Edmonton, the Organising Committee of the 8th IAAF World Championships in Athletics will celebrate the one hundredth day before the inauguration of the greatest sports event of the year, on 3 August. To mark the occasion, the organizers have invited the people of Edmonton to congregate in front of the City Hall where there will be an exhibition of high jumping in the fountain area. At this time, the Seiko Countdown Clock will be started, ticking away the hours to the start of the World Championships. This initiative of the Edmonton 2001 Athletic Foundation is designed particularly to underline the importance of the first staging in North America of the Championships for the State of Alberta and the whole of Canada. Around 3,000 athletes from more than 200 countries will participate in the World Championships, which will be broadcast over the ten days of competition to an estimated audience of over four billion viewers across the five continents. A particularly important agreement was signed in recent weeks between the IAAF and ABC/ESPN for live and delayed broadcast of coverage of both Edmonton and the 2003 World Championships in Paris and other major athletics events over the coming three years, throughout the United States of America. Proof that the World Championships in Athletics are eagerly awaited by Canadians generally and the citizens of Edmonton in particular, can be found in the huge number of people who have offered to work as volunteers and the ever-increasing demand for tickets. The forecast is that the Championships will play to a full house. Contrary to tradition, the first athletes to compete in the 8th IAAF World Championships will be the marathon runners. In exactly 100 days, at 6.45 pm, local time, the starting pistol will fire and, not much more than two hours later, the first World Champion of this new century and new millennium will be crowned in Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium. ENDS
Re: t-and-f: national class American marathoners
Weren't there well over 100 qualifiers (maybe close to 200?) for the 1984 Olympic trials? I've always held that the main difference is milage. Not too many people are hitting 100+ mile weeks in college and high school any more so the post-collegians have a much rougher transition to the marathon than they once did (and of course far fewer try). On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Post, Marty wrote: At the 1983 Boston Marathon, 71 American men broke 2:20. On a single day. Last year, a total of 24 American men broke 2:20. For 366 days.(And the guy at the top was born and spent his early training years in Morocco.) Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: national class American marathoners
There were 201 qualifiers for the '84 men's trials and 225 for 1980, while for 2000 the number was 114. But you just can't compare simple numbers as the time cut-offs have changed for each Trials, as well as the length of time the qualifying window was open. And I know for women, but I'd have to check further for men, in several Olympic marathon trials one could qualify by bettering a time standard at a non-marathon distance or winning a non-marathon road national championship. -Original Message- From: P.F.Talbot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 12:48 PM To: Post, Marty Cc: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) Subject: Re: t-and-f: national class American marathoners Weren't there well over 100 qualifiers (maybe close to 200?) for the 1984 Olympic trials? I've always held that the main difference is milage. Not too many people are hitting 100+ mile weeks in college and high school any more so the post-collegians have a much rougher transition to the marathon than they once did (and of course far fewer try). On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Post, Marty wrote: At the 1983 Boston Marathon, 71 American men broke 2:20. On a single day. Last year, a total of 24 American men broke 2:20. For 366 days.(And the guy at the top was born and spent his early training years in Morocco.) Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Oh, but... the eminent Mr. Durden once told me that his fastest mile in high school was somewhere around 4:40. Guess he didn't have the talent to do this anyway... --- Benji Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, This just can't be possible. Entine said that Salazar, Durden, Rodgers, Lindsay, etc. weren't even remotely as talented as those who dominate the modern-day road racing scene. Oleg, you must have made up these times! :-} Well, I _KNOW_ I can't run this fast and I certainly couldn't beat a Kenyan (unless you count Rono). (:-) ... MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 MEN Falmouth 1980 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19 = Dave Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Joseph Kimani has CR now (31:36 in 1996). The most amazing part is that there was virtually no prize money back in the 70ies, yet they still ran those times back then. The same goes for Boston and NYC. The year Bill Rogers won Falmouth (battling it out with Marty Liquory I think), he got a blender as a top prize, and his car got towed while he was out racing. Now the winner gets $10,000, and top american gets $5,000, plus the appearance fees. Quick - how much is it in blenders? Oleg. Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, This just can't be possible. Entine said that Salazar, Durden, Rodgers, Lindsay, etc. weren't even remotely as talented as those who dominate the modern-day road racing scene. Oleg, you must have made up these times! :-} -Brian P.S. Does Salazar still hold the CR? -Original Message- From: Oleg Shpyrko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:23 AM To: Jon Entine; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Some statistics from Falmouth Road Race. Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, you just have to replace americans from 1970ies/80ies with kenyans and moroccans in 1990ies and you will have pretty much the same picture. I am sure Tom can provide similar lists for Boston Marathon. What I am interested in, is how come a little tribe called GBTC could produce so many top marathoners in the late 70ies, early 80ies? Something for anthropologists to look into... MEN 1997 Falmouth 1. Khalid Khannouchi, Morocco 31:58 2. Thomas Osano, Kenya 32:07 3. Peter Githuka, Kenya 32:22 4. Lazarus Nyakeraka, Kenya 32:28 5. James Bungei, Kenya 32:31 6. Simon Chemoiywo, Kenya 32:36 7. Hezron Otwori, Kenya 32:36 8. Joseph Kariuki, Kenya 32:39 9. Brahim Lahlafi, Morocco 32:40 10. John Kariuki, Kenya 33:05 MEN 1982 Falmouth 1. Alberto Salazar Oregon 31:53 CR 2. Craig Virgin Illinois 32:12 3. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:16 4. Mike Musyoki Kenya 32:17 5. Marc Curp Missouri 32:46 6. Dan Schlesinger No. Carolina 32:53 7. Sosthenes Bitok Kenya 33:06 8. George Malley Newton, MA 33:10 9. Bob Hodge GBTC 33:12 10. Gary Fanelli Penn. 33:13 MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 MEN Falmouth 1980 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The chances of a white is about 1 in 95,000. As one would expect, very talented whites who might, if life broke their way, make it into the NBA peel away long before they have a chance to test whether they have the physical and mental attributes to make it. I would expect that the same thing is happening in distance running... Some potentially super elite whites are deciding to say, become a biker, because they look around them and all the stars are from Kenya, Ethiopia, ettc. If people were a little more educated about body type profiles and physiology, I believe far fewer talented athletes would peel away from sports or events in which they are emminently suited for. In summary, to conclude that difference at
RE: t-and-f: national class American marathoners
And I know for women, but I'd have to check further for men, in several Olympic marathon trials one could qualify by bettering a time standard at a non-marathon distance or winning a non-marathon road national championship Not the case for men in '80 or '84. They started this practice later, when the qualifiers dropped off precipitously. And, you are right, you can't compare the numbers, the time cut-off is much slower NOW than in 1984. '84: 2:19:50 '00: ~2:23 I am guessing the US would have had around 500 male qualifiers in 80 and 84 if they just had to dip under 2:23.
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
The results are interesting... 9 athletes broke 32:50 in the '97 race, all from North or East Africa. 5 broke 32:50 in the 82 race, 4 non-Africans. I believe that shows a statistically signficant advantage by East and North Africans. The disparity is probably far more evident in other years, since you picked one year with great running conditions (82). On 4/25/01 8:22 AM, Oleg Shpyrko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some statistics from Falmouth Road Race. Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, you just have to replace americans from 1970ies/80ies with kenyans and moroccans in 1990ies and you will have pretty much the same picture. I am sure Tom can provide similar lists for Boston Marathon. What I am interested in, is how come a little tribe called GBTC could produce so many top marathoners in the late 70ies, early 80ies? Something for anthropologists to look into... MEN 1997 Falmouth 1. Khalid Khannouchi, Morocco 31:58 2. Thomas Osano, Kenya 32:07 3. Peter Githuka, Kenya 32:22 4. Lazarus Nyakeraka, Kenya 32:28 5. James Bungei, Kenya 32:31 6. Simon Chemoiywo, Kenya 32:36 7. Hezron Otwori, Kenya 32:36 8. Joseph Kariuki, Kenya 32:39 9. Brahim Lahlafi, Morocco 32:40 10. John Kariuki, Kenya 33:05 MEN 1982 Falmouth 1. Alberto Salazar Oregon 31:53 CR 2. Craig Virgin Illinois 32:12 3. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:16 4. Mike Musyoki Kenya 32:17 5. Marc Curp Missouri 32:46 6. Dan Schlesinger No. Carolina 32:53 7. Sosthenes Bitok Kenya 33:06 8. George Malley Newton, MA 33:10 9. Bob Hodge GBTC 33:12 10. Gary Fanelli Penn. 33:13 MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 MEN Falmouth 1980 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The chances of a white is about 1 in 95,000. As one would expect, very talented whites who might, if life broke their way, make it into the NBA peel away long before they have a chance to test whether they have the physical and mental attributes to make it. I would expect that the same thing is happening in distance running... Some potentially super elite whites are deciding to say, become a biker, because they look around them and all the stars are from Kenya, Ethiopia, ettc. If people were a little more educated about body type profiles and physiology, I believe far fewer talented athletes would peel away from sports or events in which they are emminently suited for. In summary, to conclude that difference at the very very top are cultural may not be supported by the weight of the evidence. Do you have any figures comparing sub 2:12, or even sub 2:10. Has that number decreased? On 4/24/01 2:47 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Derderian wrote: Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among Americas to
Re: t-and-f: ...Kenyan Marathon Dominance, etc.
Except he's wrong. On 4/25/01 8:02 AM, Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon Entine said: Salazar and Kennedy frankly DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. They are just engaging in a little self-loathing for not being able to keep up with those who, frankly, are built to run as good as or better than all but a few people in the world. Bob Kennedy is in a very good position to know EXACTLY what he is talking about when it comes to Kenyan training habits. He has spent extended periods training with them in Kenya. And he trains with some of the top Kenyans (his teammates on the Kim McDonald stable of athletes) regularly in Europe. You can read more about it at: http://www.duathlon.com/articles/215 Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3585
Andy: Why do sports scientists exist? Why do we study peak performance? Why do we care about maximum oxygen uptake? Why is nutrition imortant to understand? I just don't get it? Does studying those things mean we should admire their accomplishments less? I¹ve been asked many times how an academic can waste time studying the differences between black and white people,² comments Kathy Myburgh, an exercise physiologist who has turned up measurable differences between black and white long-distance runners. ³I said, Well, if you¹re a scientist and you¹re studying obesity, who do you compare obese people with? You compare them with thin people. But if you are a physiologist and you want to compare your best runners with those not quite as good, you compare the black ones with the white ones, because the blacks clearly are performing better.¹ On 4/25/01 8:23 AM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:41:07 EDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: ...Kenyan Marathon Dominance, etc. - --part1_39.13f75049.2817bd73_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon and anyone else still interested, Why is this of importance or even interest? How do your studies increase our enjoyment of the sport? Why should we care what the genetic predisposition of Kenyans, East Africans or any other group is? I just don't get it. Do your theories mean we should admire their accomplishments less? After all, they're only doing and succeeding at what they were born to do. Should we pity or despise all others that would be so foolish as to try and compete with them? Every few months you hurrang the list with your rants, accuse nearly every one of not understanding and/or not reading your book and launch a barrage of rebuttals once again covering the same ground. To what end, just explain how this makes track a better sport. Explain to me how I will appreciate the marvelous performances I see and hear about each season even more by buying into your thesis. As long as in the end we are still talking about human beings, homo sapiens, doing all this great running why should I care about the genetics! I have never understood the passion with which you preach this gospel and after the latest round I still don't. Andy F -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Cheerleading Headaches
Netters: There are some NJ (and other state) schools which could it as a sport under the title Spirit. Some of these schools will not allow a girl (or boy) to be part of a cheerleading squad and, at the same time, participate in a real sport. The word cheerleader has long since lost its real meaning., No one really cheers with them, just watches them. Ed Grant
Re: t-and-f: national class American marathoners
This may not be the whole story but for the 1972 trials the qualifying time was 2:30. No one got air fare to Eugene. My time for Boston 1970 counted. By 1976 the qualifying time was sub 2:20 to get air fare to Eugene. For that year I qualified in Boston in 1975. I think it took 2:22 or 2:23 to get in. But only marathons counted in those years. In 1968 things were less clear, I don't know because I was only a dreamer then. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'P.F.Talbot' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: national class American marathoners There were 201 qualifiers for the '84 men's trials and 225 for 1980, while for 2000 the number was 114. But you just can't compare simple numbers as the time cut-offs have changed for each Trials, as well as the length of time the qualifying window was open. And I know for women, but I'd have to check further for men, in several Olympic marathon trials one could qualify by bettering a time standard at a non-marathon distance or winning a non-marathon road national championship. -Original Message- From: P.F.Talbot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 12:48 PM To: Post, Marty Cc: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) Subject: Re: t-and-f: national class American marathoners Weren't there well over 100 qualifiers (maybe close to 200?) for the 1984 Olympic trials? I've always held that the main difference is milage. Not too many people are hitting 100+ mile weeks in college and high school any more so the post-collegians have a much rougher transition to the marathon than they once did (and of course far fewer try). On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Post, Marty wrote: At the 1983 Boston Marathon, 71 American men broke 2:20. On a single day. Last year, a total of 24 American men broke 2:20. For 366 days.(And the guy at the top was born and spent his early training years in Morocco.) Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: national class American marathoners
Marty related: There were 201 qualifiers for the '84 men's trials and 225 for 1980, while for 2000 the number was 114. But you just can't compare simple numbers as the time cut-offs have changed for each Trials, as well as the length of time the qualifying window was open. I don't know about winning a non-marathon road national championship, but there were no non-marathon distance standards back in 1984, and the Oly Trials standard was 2:18:40, iirc (having butted my head against that standard a number of times that year). I would have been a much, much happier camper had the standard been 2:22. Paul wrote: I've always held that the main difference is milage. Not too many people are hitting 100+ mile weeks in college and high school any more so the post-collegians have a much rougher transition to the marathon than they once did (and of course far fewer try). I don't know about 100+ in HS - I didn't know anyone who ran that - but I knew plenty of guys running 100+ during portions of the year in college. Talking to coaches today, it seems it's hard to keep guys running in the off-season, much less putting in 100+ base weeks. Phil
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, This just can't be possible. Entine said that Salazar, Durden, Rodgers, Lindsay, etc. weren't even remotely as talented as those who dominate the modern-day road racing scene. Oleg, you must have made up these times! :-} Well, I _KNOW_ I can't run this fast and I certainly couldn't beat a Kenyan (unless you count Rono). (:-) ... MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 MEN Falmouth 1980 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Tom wrote: Jon and the list, I will throw out a few comments about why there are fewer 2:15-2:25 guys than in the recent past: 1.Post collegians have better jobs now than were available. I don't know about that, but I'll agree that the consequences of being without Medical/Dental coverage is much higher today than it was 20 years ago. Ever see what a cleaning or filling costs at the average dentist these days? 2. They have to make more money to pay off college loans. Yep - college costs have jumped a lot. 3. It costs more to live. See #1. And a corollary may be that previous runner's havens are places that have benefitted greatly from the White Collar boom of the 1980's/90's, and so housing prices have jumped even more than average in those locations. 4. They have tiring commutes to work. I agree here. I don't think that too many folks had 30 minute commutes in 1980 - now that seems to be considered short. 5. There are more cars on the road so running is more exhausting (pun) with death-at-your-elbow then it was in the 70's. More? I don't know - but 30 years of Walmart-friendly road engineering have created miles of SUV laden roads with no sidewalks or shoulders, linking stranded apartment complexes to office parks to neighborhoods chopped into cul-de-sacs, all of which have made the suburban environment much less runner compatible (as well as contributing to a generation of parents who don't feel safe letting their kids go out to run, walk, or ride bikes). 6. Young guys get beat by women and old men in their first road races and quit. 7. There are fewer young guys. I don't think that these are the problems, so much as that the most publicized road races are really jog-a-thons aimed at bringing in those women and old men today. There is very little attention to excellence in most of your local road races, the best merchandise prizes are awarded in drawings while winners get trinkets and baubles, and the awards ceremonies are really an afterthought. The races are effectively marketed to making the 20-mile a week yuppie feel good about him/herself, with smaller age-groups and more awards per age group. 25 years ago there were much smaller crowds, but when you won a race you could at least go pick up your blender or new shoes or power drill (all things which I won at races) from the prize table, and get some attaboys from the crowd. Nowadays, as has been mentioned before, a good local runner can't get recognition and respect from shoe companies, race directors, or the local media. The positive reinforcement has definitely diminished. Phil
t-and-f: significant Foulmouth
Hrmph, Jon, you know statistics better than that - don't cripple your own arguments. ANOVA shows no significant difference between the top 10 performances '82 to '07, nor the top 5. If you don't like that, say the distribution may not be normal, a Kolmogrov-Smirnov two-sample test also fails to show a difference. I think Oleg makes a significant contribution - there were some stud American racers then. There still are, just not as many, and there are a lot more North African's racing. Stuff changes - with the amount of travel and intermixing occuring over time, my guess is we'll see the hybrids (ie Amahricans) kicking ass in a hundred years. All we need is a blend of the best genes that produced Coe, Ovett, Viren, Rono, Nyambui, Prefontaine, Deke, Seko, Saladbar, Marsh, Panetta, Zatopek, Walker, Scott, Coghlin, Cram, Gebr, Gooch, Morcelli, Aouita, KK, Benoit-S, Kristiansen, Szabo, Jacobs, Hamilton, Wang, the top ten Japanese women, etc., etc., etc. Heck we'll even throw in a little Master Po for seasoning. Long live the melting pot! Well, OK, maybe that will take a thousand years. Sorry, that's as jingoistic as I get. :-) Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Oleg Shpyrko [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Track and Field List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:49 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments The results are interesting... 9 athletes broke 32:50 in the '97 race, all from North or East Africa. 5 broke 32:50 in the 82 race, 4 non-Africans. I believe that shows a statistically signficant advantage by East and North Africans. The disparity is probably far more evident in other years, since you picked one year with great running conditions (82). On 4/25/01 8:22 AM, Oleg Shpyrko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some statistics from Falmouth Road Race. Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, you just have to replace americans from 1970ies/80ies with kenyans and moroccans in 1990ies and you will have pretty much the same picture. I am sure Tom can provide similar lists for Boston Marathon. What I am interested in, is how come a little tribe called GBTC could produce so many top marathoners in the late 70ies, early 80ies? Something for anthropologists to look into... MEN 1997 Falmouth 1. Khalid Khannouchi, Morocco 31:58 2. Thomas Osano, Kenya 32:07 3. Peter Githuka, Kenya 32:22 4. Lazarus Nyakeraka, Kenya 32:28 5. James Bungei, Kenya 32:31 6. Simon Chemoiywo, Kenya 32:36 7. Hezron Otwori, Kenya 32:36 8. Joseph Kariuki, Kenya 32:39 9. Brahim Lahlafi, Morocco 32:40 10. John Kariuki, Kenya 33:05 MEN 1982 Falmouth 1. Alberto Salazar Oregon 31:53 CR 2. Craig Virgin Illinois 32:12 3. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:16 4. Mike Musyoki Kenya 32:17 5. Marc Curp Missouri 32:46 6. Dan Schlesinger No. Carolina 32:53 7. Sosthenes Bitok Kenya 33:06 8. George Malley Newton, MA 33:10 9. Bob Hodge GBTC 33:12 10. Gary Fanelli Penn. 33:13 MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 MEN Falmouth 1980 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The
t-and-f: John Flora
Does anyone know what happend to former Northeastern great John Flora (mid-80's)? bruce goodchild. Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21
Re: t-and-f: Ritzenhein going for 5000 record on Friday
I note that Ritzenhein if entered under North Kent RC, not his h.s. Will that affect his high school eligibility for the rest of the year, given the persnickety federation rules? Richard McCann Richard McCann M.Cubed, Davis, California (530) 757-6363
t-and-f: Drake webcast
A crew from TrackMeets.com is in Des Moines to webcast the Drake Relays starting tomorrow morning. A stubborn technical problem may prevent us from webcasting live, in which case we will webcast the meet on a 2-hour tape delay using sneaker shuttle technology. Kamal. DR KAMAL JABBOUR - Engineer, Educator, Runner, WriterO o 2-222 Center for Science and Technology /|\/ |\ Syracuse University, Syracuse NY 13244-4100 | | Phone 315-443-3000, Fax 315-443-2583 __/ \ \/ \ http://running.syr.edu/jabbour.html\ \
Re: t-and-f: ...Kenyan Marathon Dominance, etc.
Talking about Bob Kennedy, Jon Entine wrote: Except he's wrong. Kennedy was THERE. His knowledge of Kenyan training is based on his own first-hand experiences. Are you asserting that he is wrong about levels of training that he witnessed himself? Wrong about training he participated in himself? If you are going to assert that you possess better knowledge about what Bob Kennedy saw and did than he does himself, you are going to need a better argument than simply the equivalent of Au` contraire!. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: ...Kenyan Marathon Dominance, etc.
I'm simply saying that if he believes that the total explanation for Kenyan success is that they train harder, he is wrong. I doubt he believes that, but it is certainly one factor I've been there as well. I have first hand experience in a number of visits as well. I've also interviewed dozens of Kenyan athletes, track officials, coaches and sports scientists who have studied the situation. They say there is no evidence that Kenyans train harder than non-Kenyans. In fact, many coaches feel the opposite: that Kenyans train LESS than Europeans and whites, which is a key factor in their freshness. Hmm, the Kenyan athletes, coaches, etc, say they don't train harder. Yet dozens of western coaches, athletes, etc go to Kenya and say that the Kenyans unquestionably train harder - we've all seen articles ad infinitum over the past decade or so. The elite Kenyans I have talked to train either faster or in more volume than most of what I hear about American runners' training. One or two of them have talked of 150 mile weeks - that and the cross country camp is certainly way beyond what most U.S. athletes do. Another group I talked with (the Philadelphia group) indicated that they only run 70-100 miles per week but they do several hard days in a row and their easy days might include 5-10 miles at 5:00 pace. That is empirical evidence to me. That's not to say that all it takes is mileage and intensity, but to even start to imply that the Kenyans train LESS hard than Americans is almost comical. Perhaps they train smarter than the Americans, but that is such a vague notion that it is unprovable in any case. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: ...Kenyan Marathon Dominance, etc.
I'm simply saying that if he believes that the total explanation for Kenyan success is that they train harder, he is wrong. I've been there as well. I have first hand experience in a number of visits as well. I've also interviewed dozens of Kenyan athletes, track officials, coaches and sports scientists who have studied the situation. They say there is no evidence that Kenyans train harder than non-Kenyans. In fact, many coaches feel the opposite: that Kenyans train LESS than Europeans and whites, which is a key factor in their freshness. Glib statements such as that by Kennedy that Kenyans perform better because they train harder is not supported by the empirical evidence. Kennedy is welcome to whatever opinion he has, but that doesn't make it reflective of the facts. Bengt Saltin, head of the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center, andauthor of the September 2000 Scientific American article on Muscles and Genes has weighed in on this issue as well. He has studied Kenyan athletes for over a decade. Kennedy's explanation is just too facile. If all it takes is mileage or intensity to become the world's best marathoners, there are many North Americans and Europeans who would be on top of their world. They're not. On 4/25/01 4:43 PM, Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Talking about Bob Kennedy, Jon Entine wrote: Except he's wrong. Kennedy was THERE. His knowledge of Kenyan training is based on his own first-hand experiences. Are you asserting that he is wrong about levels of training that he witnessed himself? Wrong about training he participated in himself? If you are going to assert that you possess better knowledge about what Bob Kennedy saw and did than he does himself, you are going to need a better argument than simply the equivalent of Au` contraire!. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: track 10k
Netters If anyone has info on women's track 10k in late May, (someplace nice) please let me know ASAP. Thanks Mike
t-and-f: oregon twilight (sat. 5/12) - men's steeplers wanted
steeple alert: besides featuring one of the usa's fastest miles (the bill mcchesney jr. memorial twilight mile) and women's 5k's, some area runners are trying to put together a fast men's steeplechase at the OREGON TWILIGHT (sat., 5/12) at the university of oregon's hayward field eugene transplant ray hughes (8:34 pr will be a memory after the race) is looking great in workouts as one of dellinger's newest pupils, and another former all-american micah davis will likely keep the pace honest early for more meet info, contact another fair steepler, danny lopez, the oregon men's track director of operations, at [EMAIL PROTECTED] g Geoff Thurner Assistant Director/Publications Coordinator University of Oregon Media Services - Athletics Len Casanova Center 2727 Leo Harris Parkway Eugene, OR 97401 Phone: (541) 346-2250 Fax: (541) 346-5449 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.goducks.com GO DUCKS!! - GO DUCKS!! - GO DUCKS!!
t-and-f: TOMMIE SMITH SELLING MEDAL
I read a brief blurb last week where Tommie Smith was selling his medal ('68
Oly 200)
at auction for $500,000...anybody know anything more about this...i.e where
it's being auctioned?? E-bay? Sotheby's??
Article went on to say that he's had it in a drawer for thirty yeras and
has only looked at it less than 15 times. Kinda weird...kinda sad.
-Mike
Mike Fanelli
San Francisco Bay Area Real Estate Specialist
professional representation of buyers and sellers
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415.447.6254
or visit my web site at:
www.SFabode.com
t-and-f: Tommie Smith's Gold Medal
Yes indeed, it's here: http://www.tommiesmith.com/home.html then click on View Auction Items I don't think he'll get the half a million for the gold medal, unless of course, he throws in the infamous black glove with the medal ! :-) ...don't see the glove being offered at all, but a lot of other interesting stuff... RT
Re: t-and-f: Ritzenhein going for 5000 record on Friday
The Michigan High School Athletic Association allows a competitor two outside competitions away from the school they may not use their school as an affiliation, or it will count as a school competition. Michigan also only allows a school team to compete a maximum of 300 miles from their school property if they leave the state may only compete in Ohio, Indiana, Ontario Wisconsin. Doesn't make a lot of sense, since the teams from Marquette, MI can travel to Detroit to compete (a one way trip of about 500 miles), but teams can't go more than 300 from the building. Dan Deyo University Liggett TF, CC Channelkats TC Grosse Pointe, MI - Original Message - From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TFMail List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 2:58 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Ritzenhein going for 5000 record on Friday I note that Ritzenhein if entered under North Kent RC, not his h.s. Will that affect his high school eligibility for the rest of the year, given the persnickety federation rules? Richard McCann Richard McCann M.Cubed, Davis, California (530) 757-6363
