t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter?
the subject line is a question posed by Steve Holman in a column on the Runner's World site a few weeks back, in which he takes umbrage at the use of world class speed when applied to NFL types. Here's the column: http://205.147.231.44/home/0,1300,1-0-0-1169,FF.html A few times I've been critical on the list of people being cited as world-class that I didn't think were. I'm curious as to what criterion people use before they apply that tag (in any event). ??? gh
Re: t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter?
A few of us (current and former listers) recently discussed this very question off-list: http://run-down.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=589forum=15 Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the subject line is a question posed by Steve Holman in a column on the Runner's World site a few weeks back, in which he takes umbrage at the use of world class speed when applied to NFL types. Here's the column: http://205.147.231.44/home/0,1300,1-0-0-1169,FF.html A few times I've been critical on the list of people being cited as world-class that I didn't think were. I'm curious as to what criterion people use before they apply that tag (in any event). ??? gh = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter?
You know, it's awfully difficult to say what times guys would run or would have run. Just because there's an NFL player who ran 10.30 in high school or college and three dozen other NFL guys beat his 40 time, doesn't mean all those guys can run under 10.30 now or ever. And often the guys who appear the fastest in a game situation don't necessarily have the most raw speed - they just know how and when to use what they have. I feel sure that there are 5-10 guys in the NFL who could have been under 10.20 if they focused on sprinting in college and never played football. It stands to reason that with all the money and fame available in the NFL, some awesome talent never made it to a serious track meet. But we'll never know. The announcers should be saying, these guys have world-class football speed. Put one of those NFL guys on the track for a 100m against any of the top 25 sprinters in the world and even with a rolling start to eliminate the start as a variable for both athletes), it wouldn't be close. On the other hand, if you made some of the top sprinters run a 40 with full gear on (I know 40 times are usually without gear) against the NFL guys, I bet some of them would get beaten. Although I don't watch much football any more, I always liked watching the guys who were a notch down in the speed department but knew how to turn it on at the exact right time to make the defensive backs look terrible. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 5:15 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter? A few of us (current and former listers) recently discussed this very question off-list: http://run-down.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=589forum=15 Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the subject line is a question posed by Steve Holman in a column on the Runner's World site a few weeks back, in which he takes umbrage at the use of world class speed when applied to NFL types. Here's the column: http://205.147.231.44/home/0,1300,1-0-0-1169,FF.html A few times I've been critical on the list of people being cited as world-class that I didn't think were. I'm curious as to what criterion people use before they apply that tag (in any event). ??? gh = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter?
I hate to chime in on the side of the ignorant and unwittingly correct, but here goes. The football anouncers are correct in the sense that some of these guys have world class speed. They are incorrect in that these guys would have any shot on the track. What we need to ask ourselves is, What does the ability to run a fast time in the 100m have to do with raw speed? Much less than you think. World class speed would be more correctly defined as the ability to propel the body at extremely high velocities that only a very small percentage of athletes can match. I hate to say it, but there are many footballers who fit the bill. Measure 30m fly times on Grand Prix finalists and compare them to the fastest footballers. The numbers are very similar. You will be even more suprised when you see that many non-sprinting jumpers can match or even beat the 30m fly times of those same Grand Prix finalists. So, what does it all mean? It means that the ability to run fast is not as scarce as most people think. It also means that there is much much more to success at the 100m than speed. Barto My favorite players are: Michael Bates, James Trapp, James Jett, and Rahib Ismail. go class of 92 __ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter?
What is the basis of these statistics on 30m fly times? I'm inclined to disagree, but I'm curious if I have any more grounds for doing so than you have supporting the claims. ;-) Dan --- Michael Bartolina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What we need to ask ourselves is, What does the ability to run a fast time in the 100m have to do with raw speed? Much less than you think. World class speed would be more correctly defined as the ability to propel the body at extremely high velocities that only a very small percentage of athletes can match. I hate to say it, but there are many footballers who fit the bill. Measure 30m fly times on Grand Prix finalists and compare them to the fastest footballers. The numbers are very similar. You will be even more suprised when you see that many non-sprinting jumpers can match or even beat the 30m fly times of those same Grand Prix finalists. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter?
My impression, based on 30 or so years of 'fan observation' with no statistical research data to back it up, is: *The biggest difference between a 10.30 sprinter and a 10.00 sprinter is the first ten meters out of the blocks. *The biggest difference between a 10.00 sprinter and a sub-9.90 sprinter is an additional 'top gear' between the 70 meter mark and the 90 meter mark. Going back to the original 'what-if', it would appear from this thread that we agree that most of the fast 'fly-men' in the NFL are 10.30-types. The gap between then and the Mo Green class is about half a second (.50). Thus, if my observations are in the right ballpark, most- three fifths (60%)- of the time gap is attributable to acceleration from a standing start- something usually not too critical from the line of scrimmage. I've noticed that most great wide receivers take off at the snap at a leisurely acceleration, and wait until they throw in a body or head fake, and THEN they produce a burst of acceleration to blow past a defensive back. So their specialty is going from 60% speed to 95% in about three steps of acceleration- hopefully the timing of which will catch the DB on his heels. It's quite rare to see a wide receiver take off in an Armin Hary- like blazing start the very instant the ball is snapped. There's no advantage in doing so, because any good DB can adjust for it. RT
t-and-f: 30m fly times
--- Michael Bartolina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Measure 30m fly times on Grand Prix finalists and compare them to the fastest footballers. The numbers are very similar. You will be even more suprised when you see that many non-sprinting jumpers can match or even beat the 30m fly times of those same Grand Prix finalists. I've poured over 30m fly times of many world-class sprinters. The footballers wouldn't even be closer. After you look at the top 10-15 sprinters the 30m fly times btw the second tier (say, 10.15-10,30 group) is a lot slower. The people under 9.95 are getting close to 12m/sec. Kebba Tolbert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) = Men's and Women's Jumps Multis Coach Syracuse University Track Field _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter?
What we need to ask ourselves is, What does the ability to run a fast time in the 100m have to do with raw speed? Much less than you think. World class speed would be more correctly defined as the ability to propel the body at extremely high velocities that only a very small percentage of athletes can match. I hate to say it, but there are many footballers who fit the bill. Hmm, to me world class implies there is a tiny number of people who qualify (not just a very small percentage). Maybe 25 or 50 guys in the world. No way are there many football players who fit the bill unless they are all playing football. Measure 30m fly times on Grand Prix finalists and compare them to the fastest footballers. The numbers are very similar. You will be even more suprised when you see that many non-sprinting jumpers can match or even beat the 30m fly times of those same Grand Prix finalists. So, what does it all mean? It means that the ability to run fast is not as scarce as most people think. It also means that there is much much more to success at the 100m than speed. I'm not surprised at all at the jumpers - I've seen those stats. But what I recall seeing is that the top speed of a 60m or 100m sprinter is substantially faster than what the football guys are running. Do you have any evidence for your claim? Given that sprinters rarely run accurately timed 30m fly times (for that matter football players don't, either), I'd be hard pressed to believe that any such meaningful evidence exists. You certainly can't compare splits from races with the so-called accurate times we hear from football players - it's apples to oranges. What little comparison I have seen show the track guys with a leg up. I'd be curious to see something different. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: 30m fly times
Kebba- I totally agree. There is a significant difference in fly30m times between the 9.9 guys and the 10.1 guys. The point I was making is that the 10.1 guys are not significantly faster than the best footballers. And this is with the footballers doing very little specific top end training. I'm not saying that every NFL reciever and DB is a great sprinter, but the ten fastest probably have similar top ends to the average 10.15 guy. Can I prove this? No. I don't have the hard data in front of me. What I do have in front of me are the 30m times for my football guys who just came out last week. They easily ran faster than any of the track only sprinters I have ever coached in the fly30m. This includes a 10.37 and a 10.41. My football guys are not slow on the field or on the track, but I will be suprised if any of them break 10.5 Barto __ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter?
Okay, so after all this discussion, what actually is the definition of world class? I've thought about this and decided that my own working definition is something like: A world class athlete (for any event) is one who pays very little attention to what the Olympic or World Champs qualifying A standard is because he/she has no trouble achieving it. If you are looking for last chance meets in order to get into the OG or WC, you are not yet world class. And if there are any NFL guys who have no trouble achieving the 100m A standard, then as far as I'm concerned, the glib announcers can go ahead and say they have world class speed. Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
