Re: TF Re: t-and-f: More support for Francis...
No Jonas, the Philadelphia lawyers on the US list(and you all know who you are) will say that the onus is not on them to prove that they are clean. They will also trot out ridiculous (US)constitutional arguments when the rest of the world gets upset about the US and the cover up of their alleged positive tests. Where are all of you guys when it comes to the issue of whether or not Charlie has a right to work when the IAAF has not even taken any steps against Charlie? Spare me the hypocrisy. All of a sudden the IAAF are the side of the angels. I'd really like to see one of you guys take the other side of the argument and go to work for Charlie. I think you could make a very good credible case and do a good job. I've seen it. It's an even easier case to make than the other issue. Consider yourselves retained. I mean that. Bill me by email. Regards, Martin Jonas Mureika wrote: On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Mike Prizy wrote: But, Martin, is it not credible suspicion? Why would someone want to brag about a time that was disqualified because it was assisted by performance enhancing drugs? Easy... You have to assume that the *other* 9.79 isn't clean either -- or, for that matter, are the other sub-9.85 performances. I have always argued, based on numbers and probabilities, that a 9.79 time is justifiably suspect, if we believe that no such performance has been legal (wind/altitude assisted, 'drug'-induced fantasy, etc). That being said, the onus is on the current elite to prove to the world that they are clean. The fact that they can pass a drug test that most likely does not test for what they could be taking is thus moot. So, blood tests for all. Anyone disagree? J. -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm
RE: t-and-f: VALERIY NIKOLAYEVICH BRUMEL- April 14, 1942--January 26, 2003
Fair criticism. The banner ad doesn't have to be there. Though when you're working with something closely and regularly you're often oblivious to such page elements. Godina more or less does have to be there. The whole site has a similar page construction. Unlike when I worked at CNN.com and CNNSI.com, we don't prepare obituaries prior to the death of a person (if you ever wondered how The Life and Times of Frank Sinatra, an 80 page mini site, gets onto CNN.com 2 hours after he dies you now know). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 10:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: VALERIY NIKOLAYEVICH BRUMEL- April 14, 1942--January 26, 2003 On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:17:41 -0500, you wrote: The picture Walt Murphy described earlier of Brumel kicking a basketball goal and his obituary can be found at http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/. Click the Valeriy Brumel Obituary link. Nice write-up, well done. Could I make one constructive criticism to the TFN webmaster? Does the nutrition advertising banner (just above John Godina's picture) HAVE to be on an obituary page? It seems a little disrespectful to commercialize off of somebody's death. I consider John a friend, and I'm sure he would agree. Maybe it's just me... RT
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
Kurt Bray wrote: Now you are telling me that it's only everybody else's athletes who are dirty and not Charlie's? No. I'm just saying his are because I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise. The precious rule of law that always gets trotted out right? Are you saying MM are dirty? That since this interview he has changed his mind and decided to coach clean? Why hasn't he publicly said so? Because you won't believe him. And if his program is so clean, why is he even associating with dope-drenched publications like Testosterone Nation for crying out loud? Last I checked it was a free country. Back to the rule of law. Doesn't prove a thing. Regards, Martin
RE: t-and-f: VALERIY NIKOLAYEVICH BRUMEL- April 14, 1942--January 26, 2003
I misread Randy's post. So the bit about the page construction with Godina as a design element is irrelevant. Sorry for the extra mail. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 10:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: VALERIY NIKOLAYEVICH BRUMEL- April 14, 1942--January 26, 2003 On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:17:41 -0500, you wrote: The picture Walt Murphy described earlier of Brumel kicking a basketball goal and his obituary can be found at http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/. Click the Valeriy Brumel Obituary link. Nice write-up, well done. Could I make one constructive criticism to the TFN webmaster? Does the nutrition advertising banner (just above John Godina's picture) HAVE to be on an obituary page? It seems a little disrespectful to commercialize off of somebody's death. I consider John a friend, and I'm sure he would agree. Maybe it's just me... RT
RE: t-and-f: Ottey (the Slovenian) returns
It looks like these are new world indoor masters records for Ottey (born 10 May 60). According to website http://nationalmastersnews.com/world_indoor_2002.html the W40 records for 60m and 200m are 8.01 and 25.58 respectively. -Original Message- From: Bob Ramsak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 5:25 PM To: tf list Subject: t-and-f: Ottey (the Slovenian) returns Hi All, Just heard from a reporter in SLO who passed along some results for Merlene Ottey from a meet in Vienna on Tuesday: 7.30 in the 60, and 23.93 in the 200. Finished third in both. She's entered in the 60 in the Energizer Euroseries meet in Gent BEL on Feb 9. -- | Bob Ramsak | *TRACK PROFILE News Service - Editor | http://www.trackprofile.com | *Race Results Weekly - Asst. Editor | http://www.raceresultsweekly.com --- |Cleveland, Ohio USA |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Tel - 216-731-9648 |Fax - 216-731-9675
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
Yes, but Mr. Dubin himself said Francis made his work easy by being so open with all the details. Of course Francis didn't share specifics of his doping program before getting caught -- that would have been idiotic -- but he certainly did not hide from them after the fact. If you accept the possibility that Francis was no more guilty than the majority of his peers, then his actions have been the closest thing to noble that the sport has produced. At the other end of the spectrum is the beer and sex arguments you mentioned. A reliable source told me the reason USATF bought the argument and cleared Mitchell is because he threatened to take everyone down with him. Given his role in USATF at the time (athlete's advisory, I believe) and knowledge of the doping situation, that was far from an empty threat. Funny, all the people involved in that situation are free to work as they choose. I guess that's what dishonesty gets you in this day and age. Dan --- Randall Northam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Difference was Francis wasn't being honest because he wanted to get it all off his chest. The Dubin enquiry was judicial. Had he lied he could have been done for perjury. No other coaches of athletes other than those in the Ben Johnson affair have been put in this position so they can claim sex, beer, naughty people spiking their drinks etc. etc. Randall Northam On Thursday, Jan 30, 2003, at 03:09 Europe/London, Dan Kaplan wrote: Others have been caught and been much less than honest with their explanations... Francis' motivations may have been at least partially due to book sales (post-Dubin), but he willingly shares enough that little is left to the imagination. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
t-and-f: National Depth--Multi-event
The tables that follow summarize the number of athletes each country placed in the world top-100 rankings for 2002 (plus ties) and the highest-ranked of these for each event. Since one or two placings may represent only exceptional individuals or unusual circumstances, rather than national program strength, I've condensed the lists to countries with three placings or more. The data base drawn upon is the world list from Mirko Jalava's web site http://www.tilastopaja.com/. NEN'S DECATHLON 2002WOMEN'S HEPTATHLON 2002 Country Top 100 Highest Country Top 100 Highest United States 20 2 Germany 12 2 Germany 12 12 Russia 12 11 Russia 8 5 United States 10 3 France 8 15 France 7 15 Czech Republic 4 1 Belarus 5 4 Ukraine 4 3 Ukraine 4 18 Finland 4 9 Czech Republic 4 19 Italy4 26 Finland 4 34 Austria 4 45 Netherlands 4 44 Estonia 3 4 Great Britain3 12 Cuba 3 36 Australia3 16 Poland 3 17 Kazakhstan 3 39 32 countries represented32 countries represented 100th = 7537100th = 5580
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
And if his program is so clean, why is he even associating with dope-drenched publications like Testosterone Nation for crying out loud? Last I checked it was a free country. Back to the rule of law. Doesn't prove a thing. You are right - doesn't prove a thing. But it's like the old Walks like a duck... thing. If Charlie has a big history of dope, currently defends dope in interviews, and associates with avowed dopers like the fine citizens over at Testosterone Nation, what are reasonable, well-meaning people likely to conclude? It's a free country all right, and one of the difficulties of a free country is that you are also free to be a fool. And Charlie is apparently taking advantage of all of his freedoms. Kurt Bray _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
The same thing as the rest of the world is concluding about the US because of the suppressed US positives. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: If Charlie has a big history of dope, currently defends dope in interviews, and associates with avowed dopers like the fine citizens over at Testosterone Nation, what are reasonable, well-meaning people likely to conclude?
RE: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
Well said, Martin. I must say that I've been reluctant to jump into the fray until now, mainly because there is such a stigma surrounding Charlie Francis. But the bottom line is that he has the tools to help athletes of all abilities to the next level, including Tim and Marion. His frank and outspoken nature make him an easy target, especially for the IAAF. Remember, it was his testimony in the Dubin Inquiry that cast a shadow over most performances in the track field world, and I really don't think the powers-that-be in the IAAF will ever let him live that down; despite the fact that it is this very organization that has protected athletes using drugs for years. What of Christie and Mitchell? I don't see an envoy being sent to their camps; hypocrisy in the IAAF seems to be as strong as ever. But for anyone to say that he is an advocate of drug-use today is absurd. He is a strong believer that athletes at the top are there because of systematic drug usage, but I can vouch that the athletes under his tutelage in the past few years have excelled because of his amazing technical coaching abilities, not because he was pushing a drug program on them. Believe what you will, but unless he is caught red-handed, nobody should be chastising him - he's served his time. - Dennis -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Martin J. Dixon Sent: January 30, 2003 3:28 PM To: Kurt Bray; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task The same thing as the rest of the world is concluding about the US because of the suppressed US positives. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: If Charlie has a big history of dope, currently defends dope in interviews, and associates with avowed dopers like the fine citizens over at Testosterone Nation, what are reasonable, well-meaning people likely to conclude? __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
t-and-f: USATF Release: Godina, Nelson to compete in Titan Games; teleconference excerpts
Contact:Jill M. Geer USATF Director of Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] 317-261-0500 http://www.usatf.org FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Thursday, January 30, 2002 U.S. Shot Putters Highlight Free Outdoor Festival at 2003 Titan Games COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. Track and Fields most explosive event will highlight a free outdoor festival February 14 at the United States Olympic Committee's 2003 Titan Games in San Jose, Calif. USA Track and Field announced today that Americans Adam Nelson and John Godina and will face fourth-ranked Jannus Robberts of South Africa and Canadian star Brad Snyder in shot put competition at the Titan Games. Nelson and Godina were ranked as the number one and number three throwers in the world, respectively, in 2002. The shot put competition will take place outside The Event Center at San Jose State University and will be the showcase event of the Titan Games free Friday afternoon festival, which will include great food and drink, as well as some of todays best bands rocking the day away. The Titan Games will provide a major test for U.S. Olympic hopefuls in several disciplines as the world's best get set to compete in the mini-sport festival with a multi-sport format. The Road To Athens for America's elite boxers, fencers, shot putters, wrestlers, weightlifters and judo, taekwondo and karate athletes matches them up with the world's powers in each of these respective sports. The shot put competition will get the Titan Games off to a heavyweight start as Nelson and Godina seek to continue U.S. domination in the event. Nelson was ranked number one in the world in 2000 - when he won the U.S. Olympic Trials, Olympic silver medal and posted the farthest throw in the world - and 2002, when he won the U.S. indoor and outdoor titles as well as the IAAF World Cup. He had four marks over 72 feet last year, including a world-leader and personal-best of 22.51 meters/73 feet, 10.25 inches. The 27-year-old also was the 1997 NCAA champion for Dartmouth College. Team USAs most decorated shot putter, Godina is a three-time world champion (1995, 97, 2001) and owns an Olympic silver from 1996 and Olympic bronze from 2000. The 32-year-old was a five-time NCAA champion while at UCLA and twice has won USA Track Fields most prestigious honor, the Jesse Owens Award, as the top U.S. track and field athlete, in 1997 and 2001. He owns a personal best of 22.0 meters/72-2.25. The Americans will not go unchallenged at the Titan Games, however. Robberts won five career NCAA titles, indoors and outdoors, while at SMU. His NCAA-winning throw in 2002 of 21.60m/70-10.50 outdoors was his personal best, and only Nelson, Godina and Kevin Toth threw farther during the year. Robberts was seventh at the 2000 Olympic Games, he set the world junior shot put record of 20.39m/66-10.75 on March 7, 1998, and he holds the South African indoor record. Also a product of the U.S. collegiate system, Snyder was the 1998 NCAA indoor and outdoor shot put champion for South Carolina. A two-time Olympian, Snyder set the Canadian shot put record of 20.79 meters/68 feet, 2.50 inches, at Knoxville, Tenn., on April 14, 2001. He placed eighth at the 2001 World Outdoor Track Field Championships in Edmonton, where he was the home-country favorite. Developed by the USOC in partnership with the affiliated NGBs and hosted by the San Jose Sports Authority and the City of San Jose, the Titan Games will feature a USA versus the World format in dual and triangular meets. The Titan Games venue will accommodate four platforms with competition continuously happening on at least three platforms. The event's format is the first of its kind and will be staged over three finals-only format sessions at the 5,000-seat Event Center at San Jose State University. Team and individual winners will be named by sport and weight classification, with the honor of Ultimate Titan up for grabs. ESPN2 will delay broadcast the event with hour-long programs on March 29, 3:00 4:00 p.m. (EST), and March 30, 4:30 5:30 p.m. (EST). Pre-sale tickets for The Titan Games are available now at www.ticketmaster.com and directly through the involved National Governing Bodies. Tickets are also available at all San Jose Ticketmaster locations. Olympic fans using their Visa card to purchase tickets will receive an additional $4 off the pre-sale ticket price. All ticket holders will also receive a free 2002 Olympic Winter Games beret. For more information, please contact the USOC Media and Public Relations Division at (719) 866-4529. Also, media registration for the 2003 Titan Games can now be found at www.usocpressbox.org under the media registration icon. ** The United States Olympic Committee held a teleconference with Nelson and Godina on Thursday, January 30, to discuss the Titan Games. Below are excerpts from that teleconference: Q. What do you think about Titan Games? AN: Im very
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
The existence of dirty Americans doesn't make Charlie any cleaner. Kurt Bray The same thing as the rest of the world is concluding about the US because of the suppressed US positives. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: If Charlie has a big history of dope, currently defends dope in interviews, and associates with avowed dopers like the fine citizens over at Testosterone Nation, what are reasonable, well-meaning people likely to conclude? _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
Quoting: And what is your evidence that..., I only ask that we do it based on evidence rather than rumor or cynical suspicion, ...until some evidence demonstrates otherwise... All excerpts from some very good earlier posts. But I guess it depends on the evidentiary standards in place and whose particular axe is being ground. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: The existence of dirty Americans doesn't make Charlie any cleaner. Kurt Bray The same thing as the rest of the world is concluding about the US because of the suppressed US positives. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: If Charlie has a big history of dope, currently defends dope in interviews, and associates with avowed dopers like the fine citizens over at Testosterone Nation, what are reasonable, well-meaning people likely to conclude? _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
t-and-f: USATF Release: USATF celebrates 125th birthday
Contact:Tom Surber Media Information Manager USA Track Field (317) 261-0500 x317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Thursday, January 30, 2003 USATF celebrates 125th birthday INDIANAPOLIS USA Track Field, the national governing body for track field, long distance running and race walking, celebrated its 125th year of existence on Thursday. Our annual celebration of our birthday is a reminder of the longevity and history of the sport in this country, said USATF President Bill Roe. It's always a reminder to me to reflect upon our rich heritage as catalogued in our National Track Field Hall of Fame. This year, that means even more as we will soon celebrate our new location for the Hall of Fame at the 168th Street Armory in New York City. On January 30, 1878, William Buckingham Curtis founded a track field governing body at the New York Athletic Club, housed then at Knickerbocker Cottage, as the American Association of Amateur Athletes (). The was soon renamed the National Association of Amateur Athletes of America (N). The N was the U.S. amateur track field national governing body, the co-equal of the U.S. Rowing Association, which Curtis founded on August 28, 1872 in New York City. Because the N became lax in enforcing amateurism, Curtis founded the Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) on October 1, 1887, at the NYAC, with the AAU Athletics Committee taking charge of track field governance. N and AAU were fierce rivals for the governance of track field for five years. Around 1892, the N merged into the AAU Athletics Committee, which continued to evolve. Thanks to the Amateur Sports Act of 1978, the governing body for track and field evolved into The Athletics Congress/USA in 1979. In 1992, the organization changed its name to USA Track Field. For more information on USATF, visit our Web site at www.usatf.org # # #
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
And of course those dirty Americans(not my term) are still plying their trade while the powers that be want to give the death sentence to Charlie when they haven't even done him the courtesy of charging (let alone sentencing) him with anything yet. Too bad he doesn't live in Illinois. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: The existence of dirty Americans doesn't make Charlie any cleaner. Kurt Bray The same thing as the rest of the world is concluding about the US because of the suppressed US positives. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: If Charlie has a big history of dope, currently defends dope in interviews, and associates with avowed dopers like the fine citizens over at Testosterone Nation, what are reasonable, well-meaning people likely to conclude? _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: t-and-f: That starting rule
From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:36:27 -0500 To: \Athletics\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: That starting rule I do not run the sprints, and if the athletes all are opposed to it then the rule probably should not be passed. Absolutely not! I (and TFN) have always stood foursquare behind athletes rights, but this is one area where their input (IMHO) should be limited. No professional sport--even those with the strongest unions--give the athletes much power in saying how the game is run. Why? Because you'd get the flavor-of-the-week mentality. Let athletes do what they do best--play the game--and let the professionals of the business figure out best to run it, based on long years of history and experience. The average athlete simply isn't around long enough to have any appreciation for what's going on around him (and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense), and those that are around a long time tend to be there because they had a single-minded devotion to their craft, not playing politics. As a corollary to the false-start rule; what do you think would happen if you asked all the shot putters and discus throwers how many attempts they should get in a competition? Few would be willing to stop with as few as the current 6 (at a time when there are well-founded moves to make it only 4), and many would want a dozen, or until my arm falls off. gh
Re: t-and-f: That starting rule
I daresay you're right, but the question is, where do you draw the line? When should athletes' viewpoints be considered of primary importance and when shouldn't they? If one trusts the administrators to make the right distinctions on this, then no problem. But with the volunteer, non-professional decision-making structure in USATF, I can't say that I do (and I am one of those volunteers!). I suppose this points to the problems in the way USATF is configured trying to be all things to all people. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:19 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: That starting rule From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:36:27 -0500 To: \Athletics\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: That starting rule I do not run the sprints, and if the athletes all are opposed to it then the rule probably should not be passed. Absolutely not! I (and TFN) have always stood foursquare behind athletes rights, but this is one area where their input (IMHO) should be limited. No professional sport--even those with the strongest unions--give the athletes much power in saying how the game is run. Why? Because you'd get the flavor-of-the-week mentality. Let athletes do what they do best--play the game--and let the professionals of the business figure out best to run it, based on long years of history and experience. The average athlete simply isn't around long enough to have any appreciation for what's going on around him (and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense), and those that are around a long time tend to be there because they had a single-minded devotion to their craft, not playing politics. As a corollary to the false-start rule; what do you think would happen if you asked all the shot putters and discus throwers how many attempts they should get in a competition? Few would be willing to stop with as few as the current 6 (at a time when there are well-founded moves to make it only 4), and many would want a dozen, or until my arm falls off. gh
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
Okay, MM have made a poor PR choice by going to Francis for coaching/guidance/technique/whatever. Perhaps it's a good choice to correct some of their technical mistakes (Marion in particular), but they seem to have ignored that perception is a form reality. And, the perception is that they are now affiliated with a known drug proponent and they technical stuff is out the window. But, how arrogant is it for Lamine Diak to talk to her like a father. Please So, maybe it is not the most positive thing for the sport. But, have baseball, football and basketball been able to survive and thrive drugs (performance type and recreational type) in their sports by some of their big names? I suspect that track will survive this. If the issue is whether or not MM are now on drugs, then the IAAF, if they are so worried about the PR issue, should open up their check books and test the two until they are dehydrated pin cushions. In order to satisfy the out-of competition random testing, USATF and IAAF have to know where they are. So, show up unnannounced on their doorstep. Over and over and over and over and over. If it really means that much to the IAAF to keep these two pristine, make sure that they test the hell out them and make the postiive, or negative, results public. If the results are negative. Great. We see that we have two clean athletes at the top of their game and show that you can be at the top and stay clean. If the results are positive. Great. We see that the IAAF really means business and is willing to clean up the sport, regardless of who gets caught and tossed. Either way it's successful. But cut the bullshit. Do what it takes to make sure the sport is clean. This may be one of the best opportunities in a long time to really show that they mean business. Tony Banovich Billings, Montana
Re: t-and-f: VALERIY NIKOLAYEVICH BRUMEL- April 14, 1942--January 26, 2003
Nobody on the list has suggested that I was implying that TFN was intentionally trying to profit off the obituary page, but in case anybody jumped to that conclusion, I apologize- that's not what I intended to imply at all. My wording in pointing it out probably wasn't as clean as it could have been. I'm sure the presence of the banner was just an inadvertent oversight in getting the obit page up quickly. It looks like the ad banner is now 'gone', so all is well... RT
t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Y ask: This should get the attention of MJ-TM: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Quick query to Scott Davis and Tom Jordan: If Euro meet directors ban the Dynamic Duo if they don't drop CF, would you follow suit? Ken Stone
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
I'm no lawyer, but given the right to work laws prevalent in the civilized European nations (the kind of statutes that caused the downfall of the IAAF's original 4-year bans, if I'm not mistaken), depriving the world's top sprinters of the chance to compete for the huge prize money involved when they're complete innocent not only of any civil/criminal charges, but also private-club strictures, that's a case I'd like to pursue on behalf of MM. gh From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:10:54 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Y ask: This should get the attention of MJ-TM: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Quick query to Scott Davis and Tom Jordan: If Euro meet directors ban the Dynamic Duo if they don't drop CF, would you follow suit? Ken Stone
Re: t-and-f: That starting rule
As Gandalf said (roughly) after he escaped from Orthanc, Trust no one, question everything. Having said that, yeah, in general I trust the IAAF and USATF administrators to get it right. When should the athlete consideration be of primary importance? As a short list, if it's threatening their safety or livelihood, for sure. But if it's doing neither and affecting everyone equally, then making the sport work better comes first. gh From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:25:11 -0500 To: \Athletics\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: That starting rule I daresay you're right, but the question is, where do you draw the line? When should athletes' viewpoints be considered of primary importance and when shouldn't they? If one trusts the administrators to make the right distinctions on this, then no problem. But with the volunteer, non-professional decision-making structure in USATF, I can't say that I do (and I am one of those volunteers!). I suppose this points to the problems in the way USATF is configured trying to be all things to all people. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:19 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: That starting rule From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:36:27 -0500 To: \Athletics\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: That starting rule I do not run the sprints, and if the athletes all are opposed to it then the rule probably should not be passed. Absolutely not! I (and TFN) have always stood foursquare behind athletes rights, but this is one area where their input (IMHO) should be limited. No professional sport--even those with the strongest unions--give the athletes much power in saying how the game is run. Why? Because you'd get the flavor-of-the-week mentality. Let athletes do what they do best--play the game--and let the professionals of the business figure out best to run it, based on long years of history and experience. The average athlete simply isn't around long enough to have any appreciation for what's going on around him (and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense), and those that are around a long time tend to be there because they had a single-minded devotion to their craft, not playing politics. As a corollary to the false-start rule; what do you think would happen if you asked all the shot putters and discus throwers how many attempts they should get in a competition? Few would be willing to stop with as few as the current 6 (at a time when there are well-founded moves to make it only 4), and many would want a dozen, or until my arm falls off. gh
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
This bunch doesn't care about the law though gh. Why would they when bad, tasteless jokes would suffice instead? We are only talking about people's lives and livelihood here. Here is a little more on the meet situation from Phil Hersh. http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm ghill wrote: I'm no lawyer, but given the right to work laws prevalent in the civilized European nations (the kind of statutes that caused the downfall of the IAAF's original 4-year bans, if I'm not mistaken), depriving the world's top sprinters of the chance to compete for the huge prize money involved when they're complete innocent not only of any civil/criminal charges, but also private-club strictures, that's a case I'd like to pursue on behalf of MM. gh From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:10:54 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Y ask: This should get the attention of MJ-TM: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Quick query to Scott Davis and Tom Jordan: If Euro meet directors ban the Dynamic Duo if they don't drop CF, would you follow suit? Ken Stone
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
An athlete may have a right to work (compete in the meet), assuming they meet minimum standards which are probably ill-defined (but assuming MM would pass such a test regardless of the standard), BUT... they don't necessarily have a right to an appearance fee. Would MM bother to show up, if the there is no $$ guarantee and prize money is the only carrot? I, however, would question the whole right-to-work anyway. Meet directors are not obligated to extend invitations to ANYBODY are they? Does the IAAF have any GP standards, where meet directors have to invite anybody who meets such a standard? There are only 8 or 9 lanes on a track, so you'd think there HAS to be some people who aren't gonna get invited, or get relegated to a B race. But meets aren't even obligated to HAVE a B race. This subject by the way, is something that needs to be resolved if the sport ever hopes to move to real professional status. Consider how golf and tennis do it. The PGA tour makes you earn your 'card' through a qualifying system. Once you get your card, you have automatic entry to any PGA tournament, if I understand it correctly. TF, in comparison, is still currently a loose series of individual meets, with GP recognition and overall GP points overlaid on top, but not really changing the basic fundamentals of invitations and fees, which are still individually negotiated meet-by-meet, athlete-by-athlete. Too much, like appearance fees, depends on negotiations with individual promoters rather than an overall system worked out by the IAAF itself (or an athlete's union, like pro tennis). RT
t-and-f: Saturday's adidas Boston Indoor Games
Walt Murphy?s News and Results Service The adidas Boston Indoor Games, the first stop on USATF's Golden Spike Tour, will take place on Saturday at Reggie Lewis Center (5pm-7:40pm). The meet will be broadcast live on ESPN2 from 6-7pm(EST). The Reggie Lewis Center only seats about 3,000 people, so if you're thinking of going you should call 617-536-7030 for tickets. With all the headliners, plus local heroes like Jonathon Riley and Shalane Flanagan running, the meet should be a sellout. TIME SCHEDULE Master's Mile 5:00 PM Women's 3000 Meter Run 5:10 PM Women's Pole Vault 5:30 PM BAA Kid's Relay 5:25PM College Men's DMR 5:35PM Opening Ceremony5:48PM BEGINNING OF TV COVERAGE Women's 60 Meter Hurdles6:01PM Men's 800 Meter Run 6:12 PM Women's 60 Meter Dash 6:18 PM Men's 200 Meter Run 6:25PM Men's 60 Meter Dash 6:32 AM Women's 1500 Meter Run 6:39 PM Men's 1500 Meter Run6:50 PM END OV TV COVERAGE Boy's High School Mile 7:02 PM Women's 400 Meter Run 7:10 PM Girl's High School Mile 7:20 PM Women's 800 Meter Run 7:30 PM Men's 3000 Meter Run7:40 PM As you can see, some events won't make the broadcast. At the time the schedule was being put together, the women's 3000 (which may make the show in highlight form) seemed a more attractive event than the men's 3000, which had a late addition in Noah Ngeny, the 2000 Olympic 1500-meter champion. The men's 1500 is loaded, headed by the likes of Bernard Lagat, David Krummenacker and Laban Rotich (3rd fastest indoor performer in history--3:32.11) Video highlights of today's press conference, which featured Olympic gold medalists Maurice Greene and Stacy Dragila, can be seen at http://www.globalathletics.com Walt Murphy LATEST START LIST Subject to change) MEN'S 60 METER DASH Maurice Greene USA Jon DrummondUSA Aziz Zakari GHA Marcus Brunson USA Shawn Crawford USA Kaaron ConwrightUSA Joshua Johnson USA Tim Harden USA MEN'S 200 METER DASH Godfrey Herring USA Dwight Thomas JAM Melvin Lister USA John Capel USA Darvis Patton USA Stanley Egbor NGR MEN'S 800 METER RUN Derrick PetersonUSA Bryan Woodward USA Otukile Lekote BOT Neil Speaight GBR Jean DestineHAI Daniel CaulfieldIRE Lubert LewisUSA Trinity GrayUSA Eliott Blount USA MEN'S 1500 METER RUN Bernard Lagat KEN David Krummenacker USA Kevin Sullivan CAN Ibrahim AdenUSA Laban RotichKEN Bryan Berryhill USA Jason Lunn USA Berhanu Alemu ETH Abdelkader Hachlaf MAR Michael Stember USA Fidele Baregensabe BUR Markos Geneti ETH James KaranuKEN Daniel Zegeye ETH MEN'S 3000 METER RUN Paul Bitok KEN Noah Ngeny KEN Dan Wilson USA Jonathon Riley USA Martin KeinoKEN Michael AishNZL Robert Whalley GBR Clint Wells USA Dan Lincoln USA Luke Watson USA Alistair Cragg IRE Berhanu Adane ETH Daniel Zegeye ETH Irba Lakhal FRA Silverus Kimeli KEN Sammy Mutai KEN COLLEGE DMR Arkansas Michigan Kentucky Univ. of Arizona Providence Dartmouth BC Villanova WOMEN'S 60 METER DASH Chryste Gaines USA Aleen BaileyJAM Myriam Mani CMR Angela Williams USA Kim Carson USA Torri Edwards USA Inger MillerUSA Savatheda Fynes BAH WOMEN'S 400 METER RUN Tonique WilliamsBAH Me'Lisa Barber USA Monique HennaganUSA Tasha Downing USA Lashinda Demus USA Demetria Washington USA WOMEN'S 800 METER RUN Hazel Clark USA Brigita Langerholc SLO Sasha Spencer USA Melissa DeLeon TRI Alice Schmidt USA Sandra Moya P.R. Chante Earl USA Yasheka Taylor USA WOMEN'S 1500 METER RUN Meskerem LegesseETH Regina Jacobs USA Geraldine HendrickenIRE Lyudmila Vasilyeva RUS Birhane HirpasseETH Sarah Hann USA Elena Iagar ROM Collette Liss USA Jenelle Deatherage USA Heather Sagan USA Svetlana Bandrakova RUS WOMEN'S 3000 METER RUN Amy Rudolph USA Blake Russell USA Tirunesh Dibaba ETH Meseret Defar ETH Kathy ButlerGBR Sentayehu Ejigu ETH Katie McGregor USA Sinead Delahunty-Evans IRE Shalane FlanaganUSA Korene HindsJAM Rachel Sauder USA Sarah Dupre-Healy CAN Carmen DoumaCAN Alfheim, Siri NOR Hoge, Beth USA Tracy Robertson CAN WOMEN'S 60 METER HURDLES Melissa MorrisonUSA Dionne Rose-Henley JAM Jenny Adams USA Vonette Dixon JAM Tiffany RossUSA Damu Cherry USA Cecile Michot FRA Kim Carson WOMEN'S POLE VAULT Stacy Dragila USA Melissa Mueller USA Andrea Wildrick USA Mary Sauer USA Kellie Suttle USA Jill Schwartz USA Vanessa Boslak FRA
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would MM bother to show up, if the there is no $$ guarantee and prize money is the only carrot? Don't you think public interest will actually be *greater* after this controversy? If anything, the appearance fees should be higher. I doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:46:42 -0800 (PST), you wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would MM bother to show up, if the there is no $$ guarantee and prize money is the only carrot? Don't you think public interest will actually be *greater* after this controversy? If anything, the appearance fees should be higher. I doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Then why do news reports say that Nike has been trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? RT
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't you think public interest will actually be *greater* after this controversy? If anything, the appearance fees should be higher. I doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Then why do news reports say that Nike has been trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? Dunno, I haven't seen those reports. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
t-and-f: LIST MODERATOR!!
Please contact me!!! malmo
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Then why do news reports say that Nike has been trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? Dunno, I haven't seen those reports. Dan http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Phil Hersh is a very reputable reporter, and wouldn't quote 'sources' unless he had something a lot stronger than a rumor.
