Re: t-and-f: solving the dynamic of twins
Oh, it gets more complicated. Do you have the dynamic of sisters and specifically a pair of sisters but seek some general understanding of all twins. On Jul 9, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Dan Kaplan wrote: However, as stated, when the faster of the two is out, the other half of the set always ups her performance level significantly. I don't see how that could be anything but mental. Dan --- Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so the explanation figures to be more mental than physical. I would not assume the above. Non physical differences may be more than genetic, i.e. influenced by a critically different hormonal environment. Tom http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ __ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
Re: t-and-f: Henry Rono
19:25 On Mar 29, 2007, at 11:37 PM, B. Kunnath wrote: Rono posts regularly here: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php? board=1id=1828663thread=1444899 Any predictions for his 5k time at Carlsbad? bob From: Bob Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Bob Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Track List' t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: t-and-f: Henry Rono Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:45:19 -0500 I accidently came across some posts from Rono the other day on one of the running forums. I almost couldn't believe that it was him, but the training claims and master's mile goal matched those of the LA Times story. Ironically, I had found the Rono posts while doing searches for another comebacking athlete from the same era, Patti (Catalano) Dillon. bob - Original Message - From: malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jorma Kurry' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Track List' t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:43 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Henry Rono Henry ran a 5:32 mile in a time trial last week at Albuquerque (5000'). From 220 pounds to 165 since last May. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jorma Kurry Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Track List Subject: Re: t-and-f: Henry Rono Great article. I know Malmo was posting info at one point about his attempt for an age-group mile record, or something of that sort. Is there an update? He's among the many greats I'd love to meet (Rono, that is :) ). - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Track List t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:00 PM Subject: t-and-f: Henry Rono From the Los Angeles Times http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-crowe26mar26,1,1452093.story? coll=la-hea dlines-sportsctrack=1cset=true CROWE'S NEST Rono tries to distance himself from troubled past The runner, who broke world records in four events in short period in 1978, says his life is on the upswing after alcoholism and homelessness. By Jerry Crowe, Times Staff Writer March 26, 2007 Henry Rono, once the world's preeminent distance runner and some say the greatest of all time, probably is best known for his mind- boggling assault on the record books in the spring and summer of 1978, when he broke world records in four events over an 81-day period. I was ahead of everybody, he says. I wasn't competing with people. I was competing with time. It was me and the clock. The clock he could handle. The bottle, he couldn't. The Nandi tribesman from Kenya, who in 1978 was a Washington State student unprepared for the sudden fame and blinding spotlight, has battled alcoholism for nearly half his 55 years. His country's boycotts of the 1976 and 1980 Olympics denied him an international showcase, and he says unscrupulous managers and corrupt Kenyan track and field officials, combined with his own erratic behavior, left him penniless. Rono notes in his soon-to-be-published autobiography that he was so down on his luck in the mid-1990s - homeless and out of prospects - that he showed up at Nike headquarters in Beaverton, Ore., and pleaded for a job cleaning floors. His former sponsor, the great runner says, turned him away. If that was a low point for Rono, it was one of many. He says that he was intermittently homeless through much of the 1980s and '90s, was arrested more than once for driving while drunk, and drifted in and out of rehabilitation centers more times than he cares to remember. Friends took him in, then threw him out when his drinking got out of control. In steadier times, he worked as an airport skycap. He parked and washed cars. But all that is past, Rono says. His life is on the upswing. After shuttling from town to town for years, he says, he finally settled 11 years ago in Albuquerque. He says he has been sober for the last five. A full-time teacher pursuing a graduate degree in special education, he has taken a year off from work to write his recently completed memoirs and train for the Masters World Track Field Championships in September in Italy. On Sunday, he will compete in the Carlsbad 5K, and before the year is out he hopes to establish an age-group world record in the mile. I want to alert the public that I am back into running, he told race organizers in Carlsbad after signing on for their event. I want to teach people that you can come back from the streets and being homeless and recover your life again. The 5-foot-8 Rono, whose weight once ballooned to 220 pounds, says he is down to 165, 20 less than he weighed in December, when he ran in a 5K in Cincinnati and said, after spying a photo of himself, I look like a heavyweight boxer. His goal, he says, is to slim down to about 140. That's what he weighed as a 26-year-old sophomore in April 1978, when in a dual meet at Berkeley he set a
Re: t-and-f: Henry Rono
It was some time well after that that I found Henry Rono at the mile mark of the Riverside 5 miler in MA at 4:50. He had a big spare tire of fat blubbering up and down with each step. He stayed just ahead of me all the way for the 25 minutes. I wonder what his absolute VO2 max was! Tom On Mar 30, 2007, at 11:23 PM, Benji Durden wrote: Chas. L. Shaffer wrote: I'd go to see him run if it was within 300 miles. My wife and I were among the roughly 200 fans present when he broke the WR in the steeplechase at the Northwest Relays in Seattle on May 13, 1978 with a 8:05.4 (h). After that I saw him race several more times, including the great 10,000m duel with Salazar in 1982 in Eugene. I am looking forward to his masters record pursuit, whatever it may bring. I am glad to hear that Henry is back on a good path. Charley Shaffer Seattle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lucky you! I never saw him race in person. I remember being in Knoxville for the 1982 TAC meet, when they let foreigners compete, and he was listed in the program. I kept thinking that I was seeing him warming up, but it was not to be. bob (KC4TEO) I actually compete against Rono a few times on the roads. In 1980 he flew in on the Concorde from Europe to NYC for the Midland Run 15K and then came to the start via helicopter. He promptly went backwards in that race and was never a factor. Later that year at the Cascade Runoff 15K, I was leading the race with him at my shoulder at about 2 miles and he leaned into me as we went into a curve where I lost my footing due to the wet volcanic ash (remember this was the year of Mt. St. Helens). I cracked a rib but still finished ahead of him. The next year at the Bloomsday 12K I finally saw him really run. He ran in training shoes and buried all of us chasing him. It wasn't even close. When he was on, it was scary. bd -- Benji Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Yawn
What is a reasonable explanation for Jeff Drenth's death? I knew him and liked him but never heard a clear explanation for his sad death. On Aug 20, 2006, at 9:51 PM, malmo wrote: The rumor is false. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray Cook Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 8:23 PM To: t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Yawn Yep, it killed half the Dutch cycling team one year and rumor has it Jeff Drenth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vincent Duncan Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:03 AM To: 'malmo'; 'Bob Duncan'; 'Martin J. Dixon '; t-and- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Yawn Yes what you say is true, but it can also kill you I am a dialysis patient and I take it, but believe me I am no super man. Duncan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of malmo Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:59 PM To: 'Bob Duncan'; 'Martin J. Dixon '; t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Yawn Human beings are aerobic organisms. Anything that will help maximize that metabolic component will help athletic performance. . Imagine how a weak and lethargic a sedentary individual feels if afflicted with anemia. Treat them with erythropoietin and their strength comes back and they feel invigorated and energized to excel an mundane every day tasks. Now take a high performance athlete, were fractions of a percent in performance can make the difference of millions of dollars, treat them with EPO and you can't see the benefit? This should be obvious. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Duncan Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:26 PM To: Martin J. Dixon ; t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: t-and-f: Yawn Incredible for a 100m athlete to take EPO. But then again, it probably helps more for training than competition. Maybe Marion needs to give the 400m a shot before they yank her. (She was supposed to run Weltklasse today in a loaded field, but I don't want to know what happened until I watch the WCSN video!). She was defeated at Rome and that was her first defeat of the year. I don't know if she was beaten again or what. bob - Original Message - From: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 7:02 PM Subject: t-and-f: Yawn -http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/18/ AR200608180 0926.html
Re: t-and-f: Why 557?
OK, now Roger has made me curious too. Where did the triple jump come from? Tom On May 23, 2006, at 8:37 PM, Roger Ruth wrote: Thanks to Ed, Travis, Drew, Tom, Wayne and Trey, and thanks again to those who responded off-list, for their very enlightening replies to my question Why 1500m, asking why this distance was selected as the metric mile equivalent and what are today's usual measures in high school distance races. I was reminded of a principal reason I have appreciated the t-and-f list over the years. I think it must be an important one for all of the 557 of us who have remained subscribers despite the decline in list activity: specifically, the usefulness of the list as a resource for answers to questions we may have about the sport we love. Google is a great resource, too, but a search for 1500 meters returned 636,000 references; a search for 1500 meters origins returned none. Presumably the answer to my question about why 1500 meters was chosen can be found among those 636,000 references, but even retired geezers like me have limits on how much time they can spend at the computer. How much easier, to send one letter to 557 knowledgeable people and get the answers I'm looking for in depth. Thanks again!
Re: t-and-f: Title IX fight
Bill, I think you may be onto something. When I was a college head coach my biggest competitors were the other coaches at my own school at budget time. And in contrast the coaches of the teams we competed against in track and cross-country were more program supporters than competitors. Hardly any of them had a good relationship with their athletic directors. Maybe you explain why. Tom On Mar 14, 2006, at 2:05 PM, Bill Roe wrote: I had this theory years ago, but haven't had a legal case come forward to test it out. It runs like this: -- public high schools in the state offer X sports at the championship level. All of those sports must be offered at public institutions of higher learning if ANY sports are offered. -- when determining budgets, all of these sports must be treated the same. If you hire a full-time head coach for football, you must budget for a full-time head coach for every other sport. If you provide the football team with travel to X number of away contests, you must do that for the budget of every other sport. If you provide new uniforms every year for basketball, then you must budget to do that for every other sport. -- when you realize that you have budgeted expenses of $10 million when you treat everyone equally, and you only get $2 million in support from the state for your sports programs, then -- BEFORE REVENUES -- every sport would receive 20% of its requested budget. Now, here's the kicker -- each sport ALSO gets to keep all of the revenue it brings in. So when the track teams would like $1 million, and they only get $200k from the budget process, and they only bring in $5k of entry fees and admissions during a year, then their budget is $205k. When the football team budgets $2 million, and they only get $400k from the budget process, and they bring in $1.1 million in revenues, then they have a budget of $1.5 million. Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds simple to me... Bill Roe On 14 Mar 2006, at 10:32, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Meaning that a team that loses a half a million is far more harmful than a small men's team that does not draw much revenue but only costs one hundred thousand or less. True enough, but the reason why football, even football that loses a half million each year, is a net winner for many schools is that it is a huge favorite with the alumni -- alumni with big checkbooks. Keep the alums happy and the school comes out ahead. Unfortunately minor sports don't do that. So football ends up a sacred cow, which creates an even bigger and built-in gender imbalance, since there is no women's football program. So Title IX-wise any school that fields a football team starts out in the hole. And to dig themselves out of the hole they are usually left with three choices: 1. Get rid of football (a nonstarter; see reasons above). 2. Spend a lot of money they can ill-afford on creating many new women's programs. 3. Cut men's minor sports programs to achieve the gender balance. #3 is quick, easy, and saves money. #2 is very lengthy, difficult, and in some cases impo$$ible. And #1 is out of the question. Congress hoped for #2 but mostly got #3. But given the realities it's easy to see why things have turned out they way they have. Kurt Bray Tim Willis [EMAIL PROTECTED] .net To Sent by:'Cathy Sellers' [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED], .uoregon.edut-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu cc 03/14/2006 09:27 AMSubject RE: t-and-f: Title IX fight Please respond to Tim Willis [EMAIL PROTECTED] .net Hello: Unfortunately the executive branch in the government is not responsive enough to alter or fine tune policies that would have prevented the dropping of so many men's sports. Keep in mind that the vast majority of football programs report a half a million dollar or more loss each year. Therefore the athletic administrators look to dropping the sports that cost in the neighborhood of one hundred thousand and receive the benefits of eliminating the male slots on those sports. I had the pleasure of hearing a presentation from Dona Lopianno (Women's Sports Foundation C.E.O.) this past weekend. Very interesting to hear her perstective on the implementation of Title IX. This issue will continue to be around until a coalition of athletic adminsitrators begin to properly administered their budgets in a way that reflect the reality on the ground. Meaning that a team that loses a half a million is far more harmful than a small men's team
Re: t-and-f: Come and see my photos
Nope, list killer. Who is going to give out their e-mail for unknown photos? On Feb 24, 2006, at 4:53 PM, Jorma Kurry wrote: this ought to get the list going. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey there, Check out my photos.. ;-) http://shareinternetfiles.com/join-me.php?n=David
Re: t-and-f: Boston Indoor 2 Mile Results
I was there and watched the race then talked to the top three guys afterwards at the small press conference. The barrel start suprised Mottram who was not used to remaining in a lane, but it didn't bother him. Rono zoomed out very quickly so that by the time any of the other guys looked up after the turn, Rono was already down the straight. No one chased down the rabbit who was running, it looked like, 12 sec hundred meter pace. Rono did not look over his shoulder and slow to allow the field to latch on as some rabbits do to sometimes correct initial exuberance. Rono did go 1:55 and 4:04, but just before he stopped the crowd seemed to think it was watching a guy trying to run away with the race and a pack trying to catch him. I think this because I heard what I thought to be a sigh of dissapointment from the crowd. After the race I asked Mottram why he didn't follow the rabbit. I wanted him to say that he thought the rabbit when out too fast but instead he got annoyed with me and ask if I had ever run a race. That got the rest of the press group laughing since they all knew that I had and that I was looking for a quotation not being critical. I asked each guy why he didn't go with the rabbit or why the others didn't. Finally Cragg said that he didn't want to be the guy leading when the rabbit quit. Apparently no one did. The pack of them hit the mile in 4:18. 56 last 400 was the word for Mottram who said that was ordinary and he had been running 51s in practice. Tom Personally I find the rabbits distracting. On Jan 29, 2006, at 10:17 AM, Jorma Kurry wrote: What I've heard second-hand is that the rabbit was somewhat inconsistent. Reports of 1:55 at the 800? I find that hard to believe, but that's what I heard. Then 4:04ish at the mile. Supposedly 7 together with 600m to go. - Original Message - From: B. Kunnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:53 AM Subject: t-and-f: Boston Indoor 2 Mile Results 1 Craig Mottram AUS 8:26.54 2 Sileshi Sihine ETH 8:27.03 3 Alistair Cragg IRE 8:27.39 4 Tariku Bekele ETH 8:27.56 5 Boaz Cheboiywo KEN 8:27.75 6 Dan Lincoln USA 8:27.85 7 Abebe Dinkessa ETH 8:28.22 8 Markos Geneti ETH 8:29.13 9 Ian Dobson USA 8:32.77 10 Gebre Gebremariam ETH 8:34.82 11 Reid Coolsaet CAN 8:37.37 12 Ryan Hall USA 8:37.74 -- Geoffrey Rono KEN DNF Seems like slow times for some fast runners...anyone know what it was like out there? bk
Re: t-and-f: What's the precedent for 'former?'
We could call him invalid record holder, but that might raise other questions. Tom On Jan 27, 2006, at 2:44 PM, Geoff Pietsch wrote: With respect, I disagree. To call him the former recordholder suggests that he held a valid record. He did not. So if the record is found to have been invalid, he cannot be a former recordholder. Geoff From: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: t-and-f: What's the precedent for 'former?' Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:16:58 -0800 (PST) Neither Maurice or Tim currently holds the record, but both did at one point, so former seems perfectly applicable. Just because Tim's record isn't currently on the books, doesn't mean it wasn't formerly. (Just had to sneak that in.) Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the precedent for 'former?' I was reading the Marion Jones story below. From a journalism standpoint, I am hung up on this word former. Monty's 9.78 has been canceled and has been purged from official standings. Is it fair to reference Monty's 9.78 as a former world record if the mark was achieved by illegal means and not officially recognized? Maurice Greene is a former world record holder. Should cheats be given the same recognition? Maybe it just takes time to let it fade away. ... Tim Montgomery - the former world 100m world record-holder. Sprinter Jones on way back to top http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/4651870.stm Montgomery hit with two-year ban http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/4521452.stm http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: What's the precedent for 'former?'
But Linda, she still has the medal. Tom On Jan 27, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Running USA Information Services wrote: Agreed. It's like saying Rosie Ruiz was 'a former winner of the Boston Marathon'. Linda Honikman On 1/27/06 11:44 AM, Geoff Pietsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With respect, I disagree. To call him the former recordholder suggests that he held a valid record. He did not. So if the record is found to have been invalid, he cannot be a former recordholder. Geoff From: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: t-and-f: What's the precedent for 'former?' Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:16:58 -0800 (PST) Neither Maurice or Tim currently holds the record, but both did at one point, so former seems perfectly applicable. Just because Tim's record isn't currently on the books, doesn't mean it wasn't formerly. (Just had to sneak that in.) Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the precedent for 'former?' I was reading the Marion Jones story below. From a journalism standpoint, I am hung up on this word former. Monty's 9.78 has been canceled and has been purged from official standings. Is it fair to reference Monty's 9.78 as a former world record if the mark was achieved by illegal means and not officially recognized? Maurice Greene is a former world record holder. Should cheats be given the same recognition? Maybe it just takes time to let it fade away. ... Tim Montgomery - the former world 100m world record-holder. Sprinter Jones on way back to top http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/4651870.stm Montgomery hit with two-year ban http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/4521452.stm http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Where did the list go?
I'm listening. Tom Derderian, but I have no clues. On Jan 25, 2006, at 8:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow, I haven't contributed to the list in a long time and now only occasionally peruse the digest version. But I just received the digest version today with posts dating as far back as November. Is this list dead or is Roger the only person left living on the list? Could it be that the UofOregon change in service put an end to most incoming posts? There used to be some interesting banter on this list. Not that I have much time for it anymore, but at least there was a heartbeat. I know I participate mainly on the racewalk list, but it's hard to believe that there's very little left here. Any clues? Allen James
Re: t-and-f: Re: Women's Decathlon
Maybe there are fewer women contesting hepthalons compared to men contesting decathlons so any one injury is affecting a larger % of the total? Does that make sense? Tom On Oct 7, 2005, at 8:00 PM, Dan Kaplan wrote: Has anyone studied why (and if, truly) the decathlon would be relatively harder on women than other events like the steeple, marathon, hurdles, etc.? I've never seen anything in the training of individual decathletes and heptathletes that would lead me to that conclusion. If women want equality across the board, they ought to step up to the plate and take on the same workload. [flame suit on] Dan http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad?
There is also simply more room on the roads that on the track for more runners in a single race without resorting to trials as in the other events or interfering with each other. What would be unfair in an 800, crowded tracks or a half dozen qualifying rounds, is not unfair in the marathon because those problems are not encountered. True more athletes get to say that they qualified in the marathon than in other events but anyone who knows the sport can compare performances. Is it the same in the walks? Tom On Aug 14, 2005, at 7:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The race also serves as the team-oriented World Cup, with the top three from each team scoring (total time). Given the nature of the event, five entrants increases the chances of a country having at least three finishers. -Original Message- From: Roger Ruth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:21:53 -0700 Subject: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad? Or, to put it another way: Why should a country be allowed five entrants in the marathon, when the maximum for every other event is four? Seven countries were permitted five entries in the men's marathon. Of those, the highest ranked finisher was Japan's third place (also fourth place). Of the remaining countries with five entries, the next-highest finisher was Kenya's seventh place. Kenya's fifth entry, however, did not finish the course. Nor did their fourth-place finisher. I could go on (and will), but the very worst example of countries permitted five entries was South Africa: none of whose runners finished? Why, when it should be a life-long distinction for an athlete to even qualify to compete in the world championships, should anyone gain that distinction at a lesser level of requirement in the marathon than in any other event? Especially, when one looks at the competitive accomplishments of those fifth-choice athletes-- Countries with five entrants and their placings in the WC marathon: Brazil 10, 33, 39, 41, (49) Ethiopia 13, 19, 31, DNF, (DNF) Italy 17, 35. DNF, DNF, (DNF) Japan 3, 4, 14, 20, (28) Kenya 7, 11, 29, DNF, (DNF) South Africa DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, (DNF) United States 9, 22, 40, 51, (59) Okay, I'll back off and let the old wheezies tell me about what's so great about the marathon. But maybe they also can explain why one country should be permitted five entrants, when none of the five can complete the race.
Re: t-and-f: Gerry Lindgren could have run at masters nationals
Ken, I once went on an easy run with Lindgren and Prefontaine. Lindgren did all the talking. Tom On Aug 11, 2005, at 11:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, all My observations on last weekend's USATF national masters meet in Hawaii continue with a critique of the event: http://masterstrack.com/blog/archives/000455.html Of special note is the fact that distance-running giant Gerry Lindgren wanted to run in nationals but tried to enter a week after the deadline -- and was denied a spot in the field. That also denied the meet a name athlete much bigger than Duncan McDonald. It would have brought a ton of mainland press attention to the meet, far more than the local stories and broadcasts. This is a prime example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. At least Gerry was present to meet with athletes -- and tell some INCREDIBLE stories of his running career. I videotaped a half-hour interview with him and hope to post snippets of the interview online. Among other things, Gerry says he inspired Steve Prefontaine to pursue a distance-running career. I'll work on photo and video galleries later this week. Stay tuned. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
Re: t-and-f: USA vs. USSR Duals
I certainly would have an interest. These meets were an inspiration to me to run when I was 12-13 years old. Good luck in your search. Thanks, Tom Derderian On Apr 30, 2005, at 11:42 PM, Roger Ruth wrote: There may be list members so young they wouldn't remember the USA/USSR meets that dominated track and field interest in the late 50s and early 60s. There may be other list members as old as I am who remember the interest but have forgotten all the details. Does anyone know of an archive (or book) that gives detailed results and team scores of these events? If not, does anyone have complete information for any one meet; i.e., number of athletes from each country in each event, order of events, and scoring? All I was able to find from a usually-reliable Google search was that the third, Moscow, meeting of 1961 had two athletes per event, scored 5-3-2-1 and the AAU team consisted of 31 men and 17 women. I can't see how you'd cover all of the standard track and field events with a team of that size. Also, from a bio of Payton Jordan, the information that the 1962 meet, held at Stanford, attracted an attendance of 150,000 over two days. I know I attended that one, but my only aged memory of a specific event was that the person singing the Star Spangled Banner forgot the words. I'd appreciate any further information anyone can provide: I'd think there'd be enough interest to warrant posting it to the list. Cheers, Roger
t-and-f: Arthur Lydiard in Boston Nov 10
Later on his US Tour Boston: Arthur Lydiard November 10, 2004, 7pm Regis College Weston, MA By Coach Tom Derderian. Arthur Lydiard from New Zealand sparked the boom in long distance running in America. In the early sixties American coach Bill Bowerman, one of the founders of Nike, learned about the value of running steady long distances from Lydiard. Lydiard and his ideas formed the basis for the explosion in American long distance running in the 1970s regardless of whether the runners knew of Lydiard or not. Lydiard, now 87, is coming to the Boston area to speak on Nov 10th at 7pm at Regis College in Weston, MA in an auditorium in College Hall, #202. Admission is $20 adults and $10 students. Space is limited so reserve with Tom Derderian, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This event is hosted by the Greater Boston Track Club. Here are some websites about Lydaird. * http://www.athletics.org.nz/lydiard.html * http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/lydiard-arthur.html * http://www.runningtimes.com/issues/02nov/lydiard.htm * http://www.ontherun.com/news/0066.sht * http://www.chicagoaa.com/features/speedplaylydiard03.html Please spread the word to others like yourself in the Boston area running community. Thanks, this will be my one, only, and last chance to meet Arthur Lydiard who has influenced me so much. Tom On Oct 15, 2004, at 2:23 PM, Mike Prizy wrote: FYI As it stands now, with Mr. Arthur Lydiard there will be a power point presentation, short film, and Mr. Joe Newton, York H.S. (Elmhurst, Ill.) one of the greatest h.s. coaches ever. York is the No. 1 ranked team in the country. Program will be in the evening. Two great high school meets close by in the day including York at the Niles, Ill. State Sectional and one of the top girl runners at the Schaumburg State Sectional, site of the USA Track Field Junior Olympics National Cross Country Championships. http://usatfillinois.org/2004_usatf_junior_olympic_cross.htm More info later. Original Message Subject: Chicago Athlete Express Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 05:20:09 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Welcome to the Chicago Athlete Express. Great Information. Quick Read. * SCOOP World famous coach, Arthur Lydiard, will be making a Chicago appearance and the scheduled date is October 30 and location is pending. Check back to http://www.chicagoaa.com for updated information. For background information, you'll want to read our popular 2003 article by our Speedplay columnist, Mike Prizy: http://www.chicagoaa.com/features/speedplaylydiard03.html For more on his U.S. Tour, check out: http://www.runningnetwork.com/news/lydiardtourSept04.html * QUOTE Having cancer taught me to work harder and be more focused. Lance Armstrong the Tour of Hope rally in downtown Chicago on October 6. Michael Siegel, from Winnetka, is a cancer survivor and the only Illinois rider on the Tour. He had a huge crowd of supporters at the rally-many of his cycling buddies. For more information, check out: http://www.tourofhope.org/team/2004_riders/siegel.htm * CORRECTION Famed climber Greg Child will Apearance at Moosejaw Mountaineering on October 17, 4 p.m. (not October 16 as reported in a previous eNewsletter) * WHAT A MAGNIFICENT DAY FOR A MARATHON! With mild temperatures and sunny skies, Chicago was treated to yet another successful LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon. In the end, more than 33,000 runners crossed the finish line and the marathon attracted runners from 121 countries and all 50 states, including several of the best marathoners in the world. Evans Rutto defended his title with a smooth 2:06:16, while Constantina Tomescu-Dita lead wire-to-wire to take the women's race in 2:23:45. Top U.S. Finishers were New York's Khalid Khannouchi in 2:08:44 and Oregon's Marla Runyan in 2:28:33. Top locals were Naperville's John Weigel in 2:25:45 and Lake Villa's Jenny Spangler in 2:33:36. For a complete recap go to: http://www.runningnetwork.com/news/chicagomarathon04final.html For results, check out: http://www.chicagoaa.com/results/searchable.html * YODER-BEGLEY WINS 10K ROAD CHAMP TITLE Amy Yoder-Begley, from Kendallville, IN, turned in a strong effort Monday to earn her first USA women's 10 km road championship at the Tufts Health Plan 10K for Women in Boston. For more on this race, check out: http://www.american-trackandfield.com/news/yoderbegleyus10ktitle04.html * MARGARET BRADLEY MEMORIAL The memorial service for Margaret Bradley will be held on Sunday, October 17, 2004 at 2 p.m. in Bond Chapel, 1025 E. 58th St.. A reception will follow at the Quadrangle
Re: t-and-f: blood doping detection
Maybe Buck meant that the dopers are underhanded but I suspect the technology has always been there but there was no political or practical reason to use it. Tom On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:29 AM, Don Campbell wrote: Jones, Carleton wrote: We've always had the upper hand... -Buck Jones Upper hand? Your brief statement doesn't explain what you mean by upper hand. I'm afraid that the history of doping/anti-doping is not one of an upper hand for anti-doping chemists. Rather, the history has been one of anti-doping tests playing catch-up to ever evolving and ever more clever doping techniques. The massive doping program of the former East Germany wasn't discovered by anti-doping tests. It was revealed in documents and testimony after the re-unification. There's no upper hand lesson in that story. The Balco Labs story isn't one of anti-doping tests being in control and having the upper hand, it's a story of a clever illegality finally being caught in a long catch-up game of detection. What was the key? It was the turning over of material in a syringe to the anti-doping chemists--not some quick and sure upper hand catching of an athlete who cheated. For years athletes have known about EPO and HGH use among other athletes. Only recently have tests evolved with the sensitivity sufficient to detect them. That's not what I'd call an upper hand. I call upper hand the newly instituted blood testing to supplement the long-standing and less powerful urine testing. I call an upper hand the leverage that is applied when samples are saved indefinitely to be retested when testing techniques evolve sufficiently to detect the formerly undetectable. It's not an upper hand when an athlete's B sample is ruined by poor storage so that one can't even complete the testing process shortly after the competition. Don -- The Sports Scholarship Handbook http://www.athleticaid.com
Re: t-and-f: NBC coverage of men's Olympic 10K
I concur with Jim Reardon. Marty and company did a great job for which I am thankful. Marty has been on this list. Tom Derderian On Aug 20, 2004, at 6:54 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Listers, Wow! I really enjoyed watching the men's 10k on NBC--in its entirety, with no commercials, good commentators and excellent camera work. Can someone please advise me to whom at NBC I should send my compliments? Thanks! Jim Reardon [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS I'm on digest--I'm sorry if this repeats other recent posts.
Re: t-and-f: Chicago, New York Oly Marathon challenge
More about inter city cooperation: For immediate release: For further information contact: Greater Boston Track Club Tom Derderian 617-846-2902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Margaret L. Bradley Award The Greater Boston Track Club board of directors has approved the establishment of the Margaret L. Bradley Award to be given yearly to a member of the Universal Sole Track Club in Chicago, IL, to pay expenses to race in the Boston Marathon. The Universal Sole Track Club has approved a Margaret L. Bradley Award to be given yearly to a member of the Greater Boston Track Club to race in the Chicago Marathon. The two running clubs have agreed to remember Margaret L. Bradley who was a member of both clubs who died at age 24 while hiking in the Grand Canyon on July 10, 2004. Bradley led the Greater Boston Team to first place in the open womens team competition in the 2004 Boston Marathon and later ran on the Chicago Universal Sole team to place second in the National 5 km in Albany, NY. She had been living and working in Boston until entering medical school in Chicago and transferring to the Chicago running club. The two clubs intend the award to continue in perpetuity to remember Margaret L. Bradley by recognizing and aiding similar young women marathon runners. The award will go to post college women marathoners who have a reasonable chance to run the times that Bradley ran. Although running is a highly competitive sport and these two clubs have raced each other many times, the spirit of the award recognizes that cooperation is an essential component of competition. Such an agreement between running clubs has not been done before. Margaret L. Bradley ran a little under three hours in Chicago and a little over three hours in Boston. Runners from both clubs met at Bradleys funeral in her home town of Falmouth, MA and conceived of the idea of this award. The award will begin with the selection of a Chicago runner to come to race in the Boston Marathon in the spring of 2005. On Aug 9, 2004, at 1:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Forwarded Message: - From:Marathon.Office To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Subject: LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon ING New York City Marathon Announcement Date:Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:38:29 + PRESS RELEASE $1 Million Athens Marathon Challenge Announced LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon and ING New York City Marathon Team Up Chicago (August 9, 2004)?In an unprecedented joint effort, the race directors of the LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon and the ING New York City Marathon today announced the $1 million Athens Marathon Challenge. This history-making initiative will award $500,000 to an American man or woman who wins the 2004 Olympic marathon gold medal in Athens later this month, for a total possible payout of $1 million. This year's U.S. Olympic marathon team is considered to be one of the strongest and deepest ever. The women's squad consists of Colleen DeReuck, 40, of Boulder, Colorado; Deena Kastor, 31, of Mammoth Lakes, California; and Jen Rhines, 30, of Ardmore, Pennsylvania. Dan Browne, 29, of Portland, Oregon; Alan Culpepper, 31, of Boulder, Colorado; and Meb Keflegzhi, 29, of San Diego, make up the men's team. De Reuck, Kastor, Rhines, Culpepper, and Keflezighi all have previous Olympic experience, and Browne, a 2003 Pan Am Games bronze medalist, was the 2002 USA Marathon champion. Kastor, the American marathon record holder (2:21:16), is a two-time World Cross Country silver medalist. In a recent informal poll, Olympic writers from around the country agreed nearly unanimously that an American man or woman would finish in the top five in Athens. The women's Olympic marathon will be contested on August 22; the men's race will close the Games on August 29. LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon executive race director Carey Pinkowski and ING New York City Marathon race director Allan Steinfeld joined Culpepper, De Reuck, and Kastor in making the historic announcement via conference call. This collaboration is the first of what we expect will be many more combined initiatives between our two great marathons as we join forces to encourage and support our American athletes and raise the level of public awareness for our sport, said Steinfeld, also the president and CEO of New York Road Runners. We are extremely pleased to partner with the ING New York City Marathon to further our commitment to and support of our American athletes, said Pinkowski. The American marathon team selected for Athens this year is arguably one of the best groups ever assembled to compete for Olympic gold. For the two premier U.S. marathons to collaborate in support of American athletes is a wonderful testament to the sport. MORE Chicago and New York Marathons Support U.S. Olympians add one Three Americans have won the Olympic marathon gold medal. Johnny Hayes was the 1908 Olympic marathon champion in London, Frank Shorter ran to victory in 1972 in Munich
Re: t-and-f: One to keep an eye on
I thought Frank said that in high school everybody, referring to his competitionthe top marathoners of the time, ran 4:30 in high school but that lack of early dazzle, did not mean anything compared to subsequent training. Tom On Jun 6, 2004, at 7:18 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: something like that ... I thought he said that in the day EVERYONE was a 4:30 miler. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Shorter said everybody in high school was a 4:30 miler. But occasionally, a junior high runner can say that and mean it.
Re: t-and-f: Bannister ruining the sport
Well put. I vividly remember those couple of times when I walked on air and have forgotten the countless times I walked in the mud. Tom On May 7, 2004, at 3:03 PM, malmo wrote: Randy, the problem with your desires to have the runners acquiece to your vicarious desires is that those head-to-head match races are exactly what runners LOVE Have you ever been in a pack with 150 to go, everyone digging hard, and you reach for that extra gear and find it, and blow by the field like you are walking on air? I have. Believe me, once you've felt THAT thrill, you want to experience it again and again! Every 1500 meter runner has had that thrill, and no matter how badly you want time trials, they will not comply. Accept it, and learn to enjoy the terror that is racing. malmo From: Randy Treadway [EMAIL PROTECTED] What I hate most is some of the best athletes in the world going head to head at pedestrian race and then seeing who has the most blazing speed in the last 10% of the race. I HATE THAT!!! It reminds of those velodrome bicyclers that see how slow they can go without the bike falling over, so they can just watch other- like playing 'chicken' or 'russian roulette'.
Re: t-and-f: Father-son under 4:10 in high school?
While we are at it how about Father daughter? Mother daughter, mother son? Tom - Original Message - From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:13 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Father-son under 4:10 in high school? the Keinos
t-and-f: Fw: Dragila WR and ESPN missed it, but WebCAST?
- Original Message - From: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:54 AM Subject: Dragila WR and ESPN missed it, but WebCAST? Did Dragila's record get on Jabbour's web cast? Was it the first world record caught on a web cast? If so I told you web cast is the future for our sport. Tom Derderian, fan of the guys in the yellow shirts at Boston yesterday. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 7:56 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Dragila reclaims WR in pole vault and ESPN missed it. Yes, it would have been nice to have a full show yesterday, but at least ESPN made the effort to get Dragila's record on Sports Center. Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: Long jump with a flip
So do you think we should add a long jump flip competition to our Greater Boston Invitational on Jan 19, 2003 at the Harvard indoor track? What would happen if we did so? Tom Derderian, GBTC - Original Message - From: P N Heidenstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:05 AM Subject: t-and-f: Long jump with a flip Some more, for those interested in a little US/NZ history. When John Delamere jumped 25' 63/4 at the 1974 Pacific Conference meet he tied with Randy Williams, the reigning Olympic champ. He did not just wow the crowd; the officials at the pit suddenly became speechless. John's best legal jump otherwise (he cleared a windy 25' 91/2 in 1973) is 7.53m, so you COULD say that the vault style improved his distance by 101/4. John likes to be known these days as Tuariki John Delamere because of his Maori ancestry. He joined the ITA circus in 1975 and was amateured in 1982 after the change in the IAAF's attitude to professionalism. Later he became a Cabinet Minister, becoming only the second NZ track and field champion to reach that rank. The first happened to be also a Maori and a LJ champion, Te Rangi Hiroa alias Sir Peter Buck. Older scholars may recall him as Professor of Anthropology at Yale. The only reason so far advanced for why the IAAF banned the Flip was its supposed danger. But they allowed the HJ Flop, which sometimes develops into a somersault, albeit a reverse one, with similar or greater dangers. Moreover the Flop had an enormous impact on HJ standards, surely far greater than the O'Brien or Oldfield SP styles had, or the Flip might have. Has anyone done a study to find more clearly what effect the Flip might indeed have had? == On Fri, 08 Nov 2002 06:16:05 -0800 Garry Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subject: Re: t-and-f: long jump with a flip A quick history, just off the top of my head: Idaho State coach Dave Nielsen is pictured in the pages of TFN around '73 using the technique. At the '74 Pac-8 meet in the LA Coliseum, John Delamere of Washington State absolutely blew the crowd away by using the style. As I recall, jumped somehting like 25-4 3/4 wind-aided. In '75 Bruce Jenner used it and added about a foot to his best, but the IAAF shortly thereafter banned the technique, citing safety issues. I think they were premature in so doing. I think Delamere went on to become a member of the New Zealand parliament. gh Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 06:16:05 -0800 From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: long jump with a flip From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:57:36 -0500 (CDT) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: long jump with a flip Someone who knows far more about track than I do wrote: I seem to recall that long jump with a flip looked like a mechanical improvement before it was banned. That must have been a truly revolutionary technique. Who was doing it, and when, and how far? A quick history, just off the top of my head: Idaho State coach Dave Nielsen is pictured in the pages of TFN around '73 using the technique. At the '74 Pac-8 meet in the LA Coliseum, John Delamere of Washington State absolutely blew the crowd away by using the style. As I recall, jumped somehting like 25-4 3/4 wind-aided. In '75 Bruce Jenner used it and added about a foot to his best, but the IAAF shortly thereafter banned the technique, citing safety issues. I think they were premature in so doing. I think Delamere went on to become a member of the New Zealand parliament. gh
Re: t-and-f: Did Paula see Jesus?
I did see Jesus at the 22 mile mark of Boston in 1975. His name was Jose DeJesus and he beat me by 2 seconds. Earlier in the race we had passed a drop-in religious person wearing a run with Jesus t-shirt. Tom Derderian, who saw Jesus, chased him, but couldn't catch him. - Original Message - From: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 2:36 PM Subject: t-and-f: Did Paula see Jesus? In case you missed it, an excerpt from Paula Radcliffe's appearance on the Oprah show yesterday: Oprah: You know, after my marathon--I've only run one, and I think I will only run one in my lifetime--I always say, when you get to around 22 miles, no matter what your religion, you see Jesus. Did you see Jesus? Paula: No, I didn't see him, but I knew he was helping me. Your marathon was tougher than mine, because the weather was much worse.
Re: t-and-f: Alice Cooper--4:30 miler
Yeah, you must mean Vinnie from Detroit? 4:32. Oh, he must be 54 now. Changed his name. Alice Cooper never ran 4:32. It was Vinnie. - Original Message - From: Brian McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TNF List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 12:49 AM Subject: t-and-f: Alice Cooper--4:30 miler In the October 14 Sports Ilustrated, rock n roll legend Alice Cooper is identified in a Q + A as having been a 4:32 miler in high school. Boy, Frank Shorter was right when he said EVERYONE back in the day was a 4:30 miler! Cooper also sez he can still go 6:10 for a mile, which puts him just about in the company of President Bush. Is that how it is now--everyone over 50 (who used to go 4:30) is now a 6:00 miler? I'd love to see a celebrity mile between Cooper and Bush, maybe at this year's Penn Relays? Shades of Keino vs. Liquori? Brian McGuire
Re: t-and-f: Interesting story
There was a runner came down from Quebec called Joe Sax. Or am I being to brassy? Tom - Original Message - From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 6:57 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Interesting story From: William Bahnfleth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: William Bahnfleth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:33:31 -0400 To: Robert Hersh [EMAIL PROTECTED], ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Interesting story At 12:17 PM 10/18/2002 -0400, Robert Hersh wrote: Message text written by ghill I'll take a shot and say the late Brian Piccolo. Not to be confused with Doug Flutie. Or Frank Viola. Or Jason Fife. Or Joe Horn Or Lute Olson Or John Drum-mond (finally on-topic) and, of course, the entire woodwind section is nothing without Willam Reed.
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
- Original Message - From: Bloomquist, Bret [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a journalist who makes many mistakes on an every-day basis, let me offer my thoughts. Unless you're talking about the Dallas Morning News, sports departments are tremendously understaffed and overworked. We don't have time to craft stories and triple-check every fact we put in a story like we should. As Andrew Marvel said to his coy mistress, Had we but world and time enough... Same with magazine writing and book writing. Time and money rules. At some point you have to stop researching and hand in your work. Too late you will find out that some of the stuff you weren't sure about and could have used was OK but the copyediting, proofing is done and the publisher won't assume the costs of redoing the page layout. Tom Derderian
Re: t-and-f: Interesting Tidbit from the IOC
I know Fred that you live in Florida, but you can run a cross-country race entirely on snow and ice. Once I went to compete in a cross-country ski race but it had rained the night before then froze. The director changed it into a running race over the same course. My shoes never touched ground. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Fred Finke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Shawn Devereaux [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED]; track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:04 AM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Interesting Tidbit from the IOC Actually I investigated getting XC as an olympic event 4 years and even got a response from the IOC. The reason that it will NEVER be possible (as I was told) is that all winter sports must take place on snow or ice. *** Fred Finke, LDR Men's Coach Selection Coordinator --- O Men's Team Leader, World Cross, Morocco, 1998 -- ^_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- \/\ *** -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Shawn Devereaux Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 5:47 PM To: ghill; track list Subject: Re: t-and-f: Interesting Tidbit from the IOC how about indoor track at the winter olympics? --- ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:19:12 -0700 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Interesting Tidbit from the IOC X/C should be added to the winter Olympics, absolutely. Not sure why there hasn't been more of a push for this. Nice simple 12K and 4K distance for both men and women with team medals only but with qualification only by the team the same way some other team sports qualify. Have the worlds after the Olympics the same way that I believe several other sports do. Basketball should also move to Winter to ease the crowding of Summer (and make Winter even more popular). Unfortuately, the IOC retains its caveat that all Winter sports must be conducted on frozen water. This was their recent response to basketball suggestions. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: The Final Two
New York and San Francisco will be left standing. Tom - Original Message - From: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 3:47 PM Subject: t-and-f: The Final Two USOC will halve the field of US candidates for 2012 Olympic Games host city from four to two later today. The Final Four are Houston, New York, San Francisco and Washington, D.C. Any guesses who's going to be left standing?
Re: t-and-f: Why on the street?
I heard that story for Shorter and Bacheler but it was roads and the Bacheler side of the car was ruined but no marks appeared on the Shorter side. Why was that? Tom, GBTC - Original Message - From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Why on the street? there's also a story, probably apocryphal, of Shorter and Bacheler running in spikes on a golf course and some guy pulled a car in front of them (not sure how the car was on the course, hence the apoc. nature), and supposedly they ran right over the hood and left a score of spike holes. From: nad wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: nad wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:16:59 + To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Why on the street? sounds like something slinger sanchez did. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and a few miles later on the outskirts of town, we came up to an intersection where the same guy was waiting for the light to change, and our entire group ran right up over the top of his pickup, the last guy stomping extra hard on his hood. _ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: Concrete VS Asphalt (was: Why on the street?)
But the runner first hits the shoe that hits either the concrete or asphalt. So put the shoe on concete then asphalt and drop the golf ball and see if you see a difference. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 8:03 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Concrete VS Asphalt (was: Why on the street?) From: Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:24:46 + To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Concrete VS Asphalt (was: Why on the street?) Here's a simple experiment you can try. I did it myself a few minutes ago to confirm what I'd heard. Find a flat area that has both asphalt and concrete - say a parking lot with a sidewalk next to it. Stand on the concrete and drop a golf ball held out at shoulder height. It will rebound about up to your waist. Now step over and do the same on the asphalt, and you will see that bounces only up to about a little over your knees. Conclusion: there IS a noticeable and measurable difference in the hardness of the two surfaces. but i would suspect that the difference between the two is very much related to temperature. The colder it gets, the more rebound from the ashphalt. gh
Re: t-and-f: Bush running too much?
Bush can certainly out run Saddam at 10 km. But can he out run Putin? Putin is well trained. I'd bet on the Russian leader against the USA leader. Might having athletes as world leaders lead us to replacing wars with track meets? Wasn't that the whole idea of the ancient Olympics? Track and Field paves the way to world peace... Ancient Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 3:14 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Bush running too much? In a message dated 8/24/02 6:14:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the instigators believe their actions to be retaliatory. The United States has completely self-serving interests in the Middle East, and has used and abused the local populace for quite a while. But, I believe that merely scratches the surface of the event. While I don't want to belabor the point, those of us here in New York who had loved ones killed at WTC see things a little differently perhaps. It must be comforting somewhat to be couched in the simplicity of rhetoric while the real world waits to bite all of us Americans in the ass. Now lets get back to what is really important: how fast do you think Saddam can run a 10k? JT
t-and-f: Dual meets between the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R.
Forty years ago, the dual meets between the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. were, in the perspective of American sports fans, the most important of all track and field competitions, with the possible exception of the Olympic Games, where interest still turned on the medal counts between the two... I have thought that these meets provided the stimulus for the running boom of the seventies and not Shorter's Gold medal. I think the importance of a track meet between the powers that could destroy the world made track seem to me, Shorter, and our entire cohort, worthy. That and the inspiration of a high school kid, Gerry Lindgren, beating the Russians, made anything possible and all the difficulty of training worth pursuing beyond the usual age of retirement at college graduation. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Roger Ruth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 3:07 AM Subject: t-and-f: List Inactivity Earlier today, John Beattie put up a test to ask whether the list server was down. From that, and Mike Prizy's response, obviously, it wasn't. Also, Zbigniew Jonik managed to put up the Zywiec Cup results. Otherwise, it must have been the least active Sunday I can ever remember for the t-and-f list. Fair enough, if nothing of interest is happening. I wonder, though, why there seems to be no interest in the U.S./RUS/GBR meet in Glasgow. I may just be feeling bitchy because my ancient Mac Performa consistently crashes before I can get any information about Dragila vs. Feofanova from the UK Athletics link of the Track and Field News website, or any other result except (surprise!) that Chambers, the UK rep, won the 100m. However, the way this meet has been organized and (non-) reported seems very strange to this old-timer. Forty years ago, the dual meets between the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. were, in the perspective of American sports fans, the most important of all track and field competitions, with the possible exception of the Olympic Games, where interest still turned on the medal counts between the two. I would have thought that the best promotion of the Glasgow meet would have featured a renewal of this rivalry, even though USA/RUS must be admitted to be a less equal contest. I remember that, earlier, someone on the list questioned whether USA would field a true national team for this meet. If they didn't, that might explain the lack of public interest (for example, less TV sports mention than arena football or women's boxing!). If they didn't, the question still remains of why not. Subscribers will have noted the welcome increase in contributions by USATF communications staff to the list. Why did they basically pass on this one? Cheers, Roger
Re: t-and-f: Tourova breaks women's 3000 meter steeplechase record
Has anyone figured a conversion between men's and women's steeplechase? How much slower would a Tourova be over the higher men's barriors? Or a man faster over the lower? 10 seconds? 20? more or is it a function of hurdling ability or the athlete's height? How would that be figured since no one runs both events? I usually think that a man's steeple time would be about 40 seconds slower than his flat 3 km but it must be less for women? Is Tourova 8:36 in a flat 3 km? Tom - Original Message - From: Michael J. Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TF Listserve [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 8:45 PM Subject: t-and-f: Tourova breaks women's 3000 meter steeplechase record Agence France-Presse GDANSK (July 27, 2002 2:34 p.m. EDT) - Alesia Tourova of Belarus has established a new 3000m women's steeplechase world record, posting a time of 9 minutes, 16.51 seconds at the Gdansk athletics meet here on Saturday. http://sportserver.com/track_field/story/480371p-3835431c.html
t-and-f: Greater Boston Wins Triple Crown at USA Champs
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Greg Harger 317-289-4018 July 21, 2002 GREATER BOSTON WINS TRIPLE CROWN AT USA CHAMPIONSHIPS (INDIANAPOLIS) Greater Boston TC returns to Boston, Massachusetts with three national team titles after successfully running the gamut at the second annual USA National Track Field Club Championships in Bloomington, Indiana on July 20th, 2002. Greater Boston won the Men's National Team Title, the Women's National Team Title, and the overall National Team Championship Title. Greater Boston's victory on the field of battle upset defending champions Nashville Elite, for the men's national title, and the Indiana Invaders, for the women's national title and the overall national team title. Greater Boston, with a roster of six men, finished third in the race for the men's team title and fourth overall in 2001. In their return in 2002, Greater Boston brought a roster of 25 athletes that got the job done and scored critical points in their bid for a win. The team, for their efforts, will return to Boston with all three of the Traveling Helmet Trophies. Greater Boston's Art Henson and Kourtney Trainor earned Most Valuable Athlete honors, by scoring the most points at the Club Championships, Henson scored 27.5 points, over runner-up Bryon Campbell of North Carolina Elite who scored 25 points, while Trainor scored an impressive 45.5 points to outscore the Top Female Performer of the meet, Crystal Cox of North Carolina Elite, who scored 30 points. Cox rewrote the Club Championship's record book with her win's in the 100, 200, and 400 while earning a 9.2 rating in the 200 with her 22.70 performance. Scott Boothby, of Club Northwest, earned Top Male Performer honors with his 8.6 rated mark in the hammer throw (69.29). Meet Director Team Director for the Indiana Invaders Greg Harger said, The growth and competiveness is the most exciting element of the Club Championships. We're looking forward to next year. This meet can definitely be a catalyst to solve our sport's developmental challenges. Harger added, From a coaching standpoint, this year was a wake-up call. Greater Boston got the job done by recruiting and adding to their roster. We expect that ourselves and other returning teams next year will focus on recruiting and follow Greater Boston's example. We plan on taking the Traveling Helmet Trophies back next year as I'm sure several teams are planning the same outcome for themselves. Harger recalled from last year, Greater Boston said when they left last year that they would come back and win the meet. And they did. They came back and got the job done. We have nothing but respect and admiration for the way they applied themselves and I expect that the bar will be raised again at next year's meet. Overall, 27 records fell throughout the course of the Club Championship. Five Olympians competed. Athlete participation increased by 75%. 21 clubs, representing an overall membership of over 8700 from communities in 15 states, scored at this year's Club Championships. With only two clubs scoring over 100 points in 2001, six clubs scored over 100 points at this year's championship. TOP 6 TEAMS OVERALL (COMBINED SCORING): 1 Greater Boston TC355 2 Indiana Invaders 233 3 Club Northwest 124 4 Lords of the Rings 119 5 North Carolina Elite 102 6 Nashville Elite 100 TOP 5 MEN TEAMS: TOP 5 WOMENS TEAMS: 1 Greater Boston TC181 1 Greater Boston TC 174 2 Club Northwest 124 2 Indiana Invaders147 3 Nashville Elite 100 3 Lords of the Rings 57 4 Indiana Invaders 86 4 North Carolina Elite 30 5 North Carolina Elite 72 5 Parkside AC 24 USA Club Championships - Complete Results: http://www.indianainvaders.com/releases/02/02_club_championship.html For additional information on the Indiana Invaders, please contact Greg Harger at 317 289-4018 or online at: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.indianainvaders.com
t-and-f: World masters 4x1600 record: heart belongs to Aggies.
Do they really count as a team if all runners are not from the same team? My heart still belongs to the Aggies. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:52 PM Subject: t-and-f: Splits on world masters 4x1600 record Y ask: Greetings, all Mark Cleary of the Southern California TC provides splits on the M40 WR 4x1600 relay at the Hayward Masters Classic this past weekend. Peter Magill (SCTC) 4:23, (40 or 41) Jamin Aasum (SCTC) 4:35 ( six weeks after hernia surgery) David Olds (SCTC) 4:26 Tony Young (Club Northwest) 4:16 Final time: 17:40.63 All runners are 40 or just over, I think. Even though 1600 meters is just short of 1750 yards (a mile is 1760), this time appears superior to the listed 4xmile record of 18:01.88 set last year by the Reebok Aggies Masters Running Club. 40 yards can be covered in far less than 20 seconds at this pace. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com P.S. My fingers were flying and hit a hurdle when typing 13.40 for Devers. DQ me from the keyboard for an hour.
Re: t-and-f: Marla in NYC Marathon
I understand Benji's humor and point. If you put glasses on any runner rendering the eyesight like Marla's that runner would run the same road or track times as without the vision impairment. That term I just used, vision impairment, is less deceiving than the enhancing adjective legally preceeding the word blind. The fact is that she has illegal vision so she would be arrested for trying to drive a car! I share Benji's dread that we are going to hear more about Marla's eyes than her legs. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Benji Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: tf list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:06 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Marla in NYC Marathon I expect better than this from you, Benji. Is it ignorance, cynicism or a failed attempt at humor? I forgot the (;-). It is an attempt at humor, but also at attempt to show my future anger at commentators who will miss the point of Runyan in the race and make it about her disability. bd -- Benji Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Tom McArdle
Also his father is going after a sub 5 min mile this outdoor season. Tom Derderian, GBTC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 3:59 AM Subject: t-and-f: Tom McArdle In a message dated 5/4/02 8:15:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What about Tom McArdle? 13:37. Great pr for him. And don't forget he ran 28:18.21 for 10k at Mt.SAC. And...he went to the same high school as Jonathon Riley (Brookline,Ma--they were two years apart). McArdle(5th) beat Riley(10th) in last year's NCAA 10k. And...his brother George (also Brookline), who ran 9:32.5 for 2-miles this past indoor season, will join him at Dartmouth in the fall. Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: a punster's dream
Busby... Berkeley. usually followed by the word spectacular. Is is possible for announcing to be spectacular? Or just fabulous as is gh? Tom
Re: t-and-f: Fw: recipe, cakey lumps of tastless gunk
That is the joke. The recipe is really bad. All that flour and blended oatmeal, whatever that is, a total of 9 cups, with only 2 cups of sugar would make cakey lumps of tasteless gunk. Only 24 oz of chocolate chips? And why grate the Hershey bar? ...totally stupid recipe. For only $100 bucks you can have one of mine. Tom, who is the baker in our house. - Original Message - From: John Lunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: George Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: John Bale [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sport History Scholars list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Track Field List (E-mail 2) [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Anthony P. Bale [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 4:54 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Fw: recipe It seems to me that the most important issue is that of the recipe. Has anyone tried it? Is it any good? Is there such a thing as a bad chocolate chip cookie? Have we had every discussion known to mankind concerning track and field? John George Cole wrote: THIS IS NOT A TRUE STORY and should not be on this list even if it was!!! This same true story has been passed around for years - by word of mouth before the internet. George - Original Message - From: John Bale [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sport History Scholars list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Track Field List (E-mail 2) [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Anthony P. Bale [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 6:49 AM Subject: t-and-f: Fw: recipe - Original Message - From: Joanna Redman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lee Love (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Steph Acton [EMAIL PROTECTED]; John Bale [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Susan Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Will Bradbury [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Simon Brentford [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Simon Brentford [EMAIL PROTECTED]; jason brister [EMAIL PROTECTED]; andy burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Chris Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Steve Champ [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Channin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Rupert Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Ruth Covell [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Kat Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Kat Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED]; catherine dyson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; John Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Marie Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ben frank [EMAIL PROTECTED]; sara Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: recipe Another true story? It figures, another large corporation trying to screw the little man - this should teach them! Pass it on - it is one way to get them back This is great. A little background: Neiman-Marcus, if you don't know already, is a very expensive store; i.e., they sell your typical $8.00 T-shirt for $50.00. Let's let them have it! THIS IS A TRUE STORY My daughter and I had just finished a salad at a Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas, and we decided to have a small dessert. Because both of us are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the Neiman-Marcus cookie. It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe, and the waitress said with a small frown, I'm afraid not, but you can buy the recipe. Well, I asked how much, and she responded, Only two fifty-it's a great deal! I agreed to that, and told her to just add it to my tab. Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement, and the Neiman-Marcus charge was $285.00! I looked again, and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, Cookie Recipe-$250.00. That was outrageous! I called Neiman's Accounting Department and told them the waitress said it was two fifty, which clearly does not mean two hundred and fifty dollars by any reasonable interpretation of the phrase. Neiman-Marcus refused to budge. They would not refund my money because, according to them, What the waitress told you is not our problem. You have already seen the recipe. We absolutely will not refund your money at this point. I explained to the Accounting Department lady the criminal statutes which govern fraud in the state of Texas. I threatened to report them to the Better Business Bureau and the Texas Attorney General's office for engaging in fraud. I was basically told, Do what you want. Don't bother thinking of how you can get even, and don't bother trying to get any of your money back. I just said, Okay, you folks got my $250, and now I'm going to have $250 worth of fun. I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover in the United States with an e-mail account has a $250 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus...for free. She
Re: t-and-f: USA vs the World +20
I like the sound of World Relays. There is something Utopian about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Edward Koch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 1:31 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: USA vs the World +20 It may be a typical American viewpoint, but I have always thought that replacing the World Cup with a World Relay Championship every four years would be a great event. Ed Koch -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 9:10 AM Subject: t-and-f: USA vs the World +20 It's about 20 years too late, but it would have been incredible to see this kind of competition in a 4x1500/mile back in the early 80s. Scott/Spivey/Byers vs. Coghlan/O'Mara/O'Sullivan vs. Coe/Ovett/Cram â” we surely would have seen a WR that would be Beamonesque Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: t-and-f: It's Relays Weekend and the list is silent?!?!?!
Greater Boston Track Club is going to the Relays with several teams. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Bob Ramsak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tony Banovich [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:07 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: It's Relays Weekend and the list is silent?!?!?! Has the list fulfilled it's useful life (I sure hope not)? Well, maybe in some respects. As far as results go, it's becoming easier to get many of those on our own. In other ways, I think it's thriving. Each time I post a question, I get several personal replies from all over the world. Thanks again! This list is extremely helpful in that respect. Or is everyone now just posting to other places like LetsRun.com? Gawd, I hope not. :) Anyone know how many people are actually on the list these days? -- | Bob Ramsak | *TRACK PROFILE News Service - Editor | http://www.trackprofile.com | *Race Results Weekly - Asst. Editor | http://www.raceresultsweekly.com --- |Cleveland, Ohio USA |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Tel - 216-731-9648 |Fax - 216-731-9675
Re: t-and-f: sub-4:00 club takes a jump
That assumes that those who had/have doubts about the Washington track aren't borne out. (Any time almost everybody in a race PRs, inquiring minds do want to know why.) Sometimes a race is fast because the pacing is ideal for everyone and the runners do not do a lot of jostling and passing but run in single file in lane one like in a training interval allowing mass drafting and the shortest loop of the track. Was the race smooth in that sense? Tom Derderian (not smooth in any sense)
Re: t-and-f: Sport as a right
I am noticing a trend in our Greater Boston Track Club that was founded to help post collegiate athletes is getting more pretty good athletes who are college students who could not be walk on to Boston area DI school track teams. That's OK. We'll take 'em. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Edward Koch [EMAIL PROTECTED] The current test makes cutting male walk-ons the easy way out for colleges, and that does not even free up significant resources for women's athletes since walk-ons cost colleges very little (major costs such as coaches salaries and facilities are not variable to team size).
Re: t-and-f: Sport Is Not A Right (Title IX)
A couple of additions to what Phil said below about the Boston Marathon. Benoit won in 1983 not 1982. Her 2:22:43 placed 121st overall. By 1995 that time would have placed 29th and been first American. I don't have time to count how many Americans beat Benoit in 1983 but it was over 100. Does that mean that since then title IX has ruined men's running? And failed to bring up women's running? Or is there no cause and effect in these interesting numbers? Or is the cause something else? Tom Derderian, who wrote the book on the Boston Marathon In principle, I cheer Title IX. You have to remember that it was crafted during an era where Jock Semple was chasing down Cathy Switzer to rip her Boston number off her shirt because women can't be running marathons. The reason that Boston - which as recently as 1962 was won in a time slower than Joan Benoit's WR 2:22 there in 1982 - could think that women couldn't do things like a marathon is because as a society we weren't exposed to women participating in the wide range of athletic endeavors we take for granted today. The problem with Title IX, imo, is that it hasn't kept up with it's successes. That's the inherent danger in any affirmative action program - those who oppose it do so with such vituperation, and usually with such a lack of regard for the history of the program, that those who support portions of it are forced to defend ALL of it, even the obviously flawed parts, rather than allow the program to be put into play and possibly completely gutted. What should be done, is a grand public celebration of Title IX, heralding it's successes, trumpeting all the statistics and case studies and anecdotes available, to show how those who couldn't conceive of a woman beating all but six American men at Boston were as shortsighted as those who a couple generations ago thought the 4 minute mile was the edge of human capabilities. However, as part of the celebration, there should be an acknowledgement that Title IX is now becoming a straightjacket to limit successes of all athletes, because it is beginning to limit participation among men, rather than create new opportunities for women. And male collegiate athletes are a critical portion of the HS coaching base for girls and boys. Deny collegiate men the opportunity to participate in and learn from intercollegiate athletics, and you're drying up part of your supply of knowledgable and motivated individuals to go forward and teach. Using that tack, I think Title IX could be amended to reflect it's successes, as well as the new budgetary and participation realities faced by athletic departments today. But you're not going to get those changes by being confrontational, because that will only entrench the other side even deeper. Phil
t-and-f: EPO ad during the Olympics
Anyone notice the add for EPO during tonight Olympic coverage? It was for a product called Epocrit for anemic patients under chemo therapy. It was not during cross-country coverage but during the 4 man bobsleigh. Derderian
t-and-f: Fw: photos from NE Championships
If you want to see what the New England Championships looked like...granted that our man Stanley favored our winning Greater Boston Teams. Enjoy, Tom Derderian Photos from the NE Championships: http://www.accelphoto.com/02-17-02-tf_nechamps
t-and-f: DMR Imperial to Metric?
We are trying to qualify our Greater Boston DMR for the Nationals at the Armory in NYC. The qualifying time is 10:10 but we blew it on Saturday at the Valentine meet at Boston University on a 200 meter track going only 10:11.17. We will have to try again but the next meet is at Harvard in the USTFNE Championships on a 220 YARD track...so what is the conversion? Does anyone know? Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club
Re: t-and-f: Compiling event schedule for 2002
Do I detect a certain lack of focus in Indianapolis about just what it is that our sport does? gh Yes, you do. Why do you suppose? td
Re: t-and-f: The Real Virtual Rabbits
Subject: Re: t-and-f: The Real Virtual Rabbits The old professional track circuit in the early 70's had exactly this. They set it at world record pace, and it was very discouraging to see it pull way, way ahead of the runners. and soon they needed virtual spectators. Tom D
Re: t-and-f: Sports code of conduct
- Comments? Would you teach YOUR kid that trying to win is important, but always doing your best is even MORE important? I tell my daughters who are 10 and 12 running 2 and 5 on their middle school x-c team that trying to win is what you do but that actually winning depends on what others do. Then I add that the only races I ever won were because the really good guys were somewhere else. (some of them are even on this list) I also say that if a runner from another team starts to run off the course they should shout at her to get back on the course as soon as they notice. But tactics to try to win such as going out fast and pulling the other runner out to burn him or her off or waiting to kick or surging or sprinting up /down a hill or in anticipation of a turn or mud are all the few bits of gamesmanship that that we have in our brutally simple sport to make it interesting. No races are not all time trials. That would be boring. It is wrong to imped another runner's progress but essential to defend your space. Tom Derderian
Re: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
Naw, he was predominantly the guy with the hat who threw it off just before sprinting to victory. td - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem? In a message dated Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:49:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was a high school kid at the time, but my memory is that Keino was regarded, by the public at least, as predominantly a miler. Nah, he was predominantly Kenyan. 'nuff said. gh
Re: t-and-f: First sub-4:00 African (was Keino (was:: Solution for 1500m standard problem))
Can anyone name who and when a man from every continent broke the 4:00-mile? Most of these are no-brainers, but I am curious about (what year)/(who did it) for Asia, Africa, and South America. bold prediction: No one from Antarctia will ever break 4:00 for the mile or even 1500. td
Re: t-and-f: 1500: ain't we got fun?
Ed wrote: Another idea that would help stimulate U.S. track and field - have 30-50% of the fields at nationals come from 4-8 regional meets rather than having it all time based as it is now (sounds like the NCAA). In a field of 24, ~12 should qualify on time, and the rest should come from regional meets. This would increase the emphasis on head-to-head competition while still ensuring that the top dozen people in each event would get in on time. Many of the other individual sports do some variation on this. clip if done right, I think the net result would be more and better competition opportunities for those coming up through the ranks. This idea is brilliant! I would go further and require that any entrant in the national championships also have run the qualifying time and placed in the top 3 in the regional meet (combination of associations) like an Olympic trial. Top three and qualifying time. Then each region would have its important track meet including its regional stars and a reason for spectators and the press to pay attention. Hopes would go with the regional guy to go to the nationals. Tom Derderian, endorser of brilliant ideas.
Re: t-and-f: What are we really saying?
Hydrogen dioxide overdose caused the death of a runner in the Chicago Marathon so maybe it needs to be regulated so we can have a perfect world. TD I hope you are not against ergogenics. After all hydrogen dioxide is the world's most prevalent ergogenic aid. John the crazy alaskan runner
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
Can this chip timing record team standing at every 5 km split and report those standing to a press room and TV in real time? So could viewers of the Boston Marathon, for example, know as soon as the three runners of a USATF team pass the 5 km that that team is winning? I am imagining a team score running across the bottom of the TV screen with the full names of USATF teams such as Boston Athletic Association, Greater Lowell or Greater Boston Track Club, with the time score perhaps as an average or a total so viewers can see the battle develop for the men and women and people in the press room have immediate information to report on local or USATF competition. Can this chip system create interest in a team score and bring attention to USA post collegiate racing? Tom Derderian, eager for technology
Re: t-and-f: Track Movies (was Bruce Dern)
I think one can't and shouldn't make movies about running. The drama of training and racing is it's own theater. One can make movies about plot, character, and action in a running setting but if one tries to make a movie to show the viewer how it feels to race, and how it feels to watch a race it will always fail when compared to the real thing. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Edward Koch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:08 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Track Movies (was Bruce Dern) We had another thread about track/running movies some time back and I went to my latest edition of Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide to check the star ratings of the movie's mentioned. Here is what I came up with: 4 stars: Lonliness of the Long Distance Runner Olympia ( re1936 Olympics) 3.5 Stars: Chariots of Fire Gallipoli Personal Best Million Dollar Legs (W.C.Fields, not Betty Grable) 3 Stars: Blackbeard's Ghost Bob Mathias Story Walk, Don't Run (Cary Grant) Without Limits World's Greatest Athlete Yank at Oxford 2.5 Stars: Billie (Patty Duke as HS runner) Jim Thorpe - All American Running Brave (re Billy Mills) 2 Stars: Goldengirl On the Edge (Bruce Dern) Prefontaine Revenge of the Nerds (the Javelin Scene) Visions of Eight (re 1972 Olympics) 1.5 Stars: The Games (screenplay by Eric Segal) Meatballs (the race scene) Running (Michael Douglas) Maltin does not give stars to television movies. Instead, he rates them as Above Average, Average, or Below Average. He rates The Jesse Owens Story as Above Average. If anyone has other films, I'll be glad to look their ratings up. I found it interesting that a critic with no track-orientation (to my knowledge) came within a half star of how I would rate most of the above that I have seen. I would, however, lower Personal Best a star, and raise Visions of Eight a star. I would put Chariots of Fire at the top of the list. As for Best Comedy, I'd choose between Million Dollar Legs, Walk, Don't Run, and Blackbeard's Ghost. the latter is a typical Disney comedy but I have a soft spot in my heart for any film in which the track coach wins the girl over a football coach. Ed Koch -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, December 17, 2001 9:25 AM Subject: t-and-f: Bruce Dern (was Famous people in TF) In a message dated 12/16/01 8:35:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bruce Dern went to college at Penn and may have competed on the track team but it was before my time. He did in fact compete and was a good half miler, but quit the team his jr. year in a dispute w/ the coach (Ken Doherty? - I think the time frame is pre-Tupp, but it's before my time as well) over having to trim his sideburns. Incidentally, I recall reading in an interview that his film contracts stipulated that he had to have at least one scene in which he was running (and I think that's true). IMHO, his movie based on the Dipsea (I think it's titled Running Free) is one of the Top 10 running flicks ever, partly b/c Dern looks so believable as a runner. If you watch it and don't want to go out for a hard 10 mile trail run, you need to check your pulse. Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: t-and-f: Franklyn Sanchez
I'll let you know since it is likely that I'll see him over christmas break since he lives nearby. Tom - Original Message - From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 8:24 PM Subject: t-and-f: Franklyn Sanchez Does anyone know how Franklyn Sanchez is doing? I know he was hurt this summer and spent cross country getting back into shape... how is he doing now? Nobody seems to recognize him as one of the young guns of American Distance running with Webb, Torres, Ritz, Hall, Sage, Broe, etc... but last year he was our best young guy in the 5k (running 13:38). Also, does anyone know how the Hausers are doing and if Gabe Jennings is planning on running collegiately anymore? Or running at all for that matter? Thanks, Mike _ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: Famous People Who Have Run Track?
Is there some Hungarian Tables for comparing relative famousnesses? Tom D. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:47 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Famous People Who Have Run Track? In a message dated Thu, 13 Dec 2001 6:10:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, William Hein [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My rather was a quarter miler at the University of Nebraska in the late '40s. He raced against Dennis Weaver, the actor, who as I recall ran for Oklahoma. who as Billy D. Weaver was 6th in the '48 Olympic Trials decathlon. gh
t-and-f: Famous (GBTC) people who have run track?
Famous Author Sebastian Junger of the Perfect Storm used to be a member of Greater Boston Track Club. He ran 800 meters. Like 2 minutes maybe a bit under. I have been meaning to look it up. So was famous playwrite Israel Horovitz. Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club
Re: t-and-f: dude with range
Yeah, yeah,but can he vault? Throw? So speaking of range what is the best, say, marathoner/vaulter, anyone has heard of a marathoner/thrower? Let's talk extreme range. Tom, 2:19 marathon, 23' shotput - Original Message - From: William H. Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:00 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: dude with range Yeah, but what's his 100 meters time? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:52 PM Subject: t-and-f: dude with range from time to time we've raised the names of guys with super range (like sub-4:00/sub-2:10 people). Here's a new one I don't recall anyone mentioning. Driss Al Himer of France (né Morocco) won the Amsterdam Marathon in October in 2:07:02. That was his debut, mind you. Note that he's also a 13:10 guy and was in the Edmonton 5K final and has a 1500 best in the 3:37s (so he's in essence a 3:54 miler). I'd say that puts him way up high on the old great-range list. gh
Re: t-and-f: Lydiard's prophecy on marathon record
Not many people now would wed themselves to an absolute prediction but Lydiard did. About the 2:05:42, I think he would say, Wow, I was wrong. That's one of the reason's he is a legend. Those who qualify their statements will never become legends. Lydiard was my unofficial coach when I was in high school near Boston. My official track coach was the football coach who knew nothing about training for track. But I had a pen pal in New Zealand who ran and sent me his workouts which I did. The workouts came down a few steps from Lydiard. I matched the workouts of my pen pal and ran the same times as he did, then I did more and ran a faster time than he did, but return mail always showed that while the mails crossed he had gone faster yet. The only trouble I had was doing the 20 mile run on Sundays through paddocks and hills. I had no idea what a paddocks was. Tom D. During a recent office visit, (legendary New Zealand coach Arthur) Lydiard opined that 2:06 is the absolute limit for the marathon as it is physiologically impossible to run faster. Wonder what Lydiard (or Bert) thinks of the impossible (2:05:42) Mr. Khannouchi. No, Lydiard would probably say ...give or take 18 seconds... JT
t-and-f: Alan's slow dumb ass
How the hell do we fix this problem? There are many ways to skin a cat but apparently only a handful of US athletes have found a way. Of course my slow dumb ass isn't helping matters. Alan Alan's dumb ass can help if the guy ahead of him is terrified that dumb ass Alan might beat him. Oh, unspeakable indignity! And the guy ahead of him is terrified that at a guy who can only beat dumb ass Alan might beat him. My point is the US marathoning must return to a tipping point where everyone at the sub 2:30 level has guys visably ahead to shoot at and guys just behind gunning for them. But we haven't got enough guys at the sub 2:30 level to make racing interesting and instead marathons become rather than races, time trials. We need the number to pass the tipping point to flip time-trialing to racing where the question is not what what your time? but Who did you beat? To help reach the tipping point I am trying to promoteUSA team competition in marathons. My goal for coaching the latter day Greater Boston Track Club is to win the team prize in the 2002 Boston Marathon. The competition will attract fast runners to the marathon and drive them under 2:20 and faster. This is Tom's dumb ass observation Derderian
Re: t-and-f: Footlocker South - why so fast?
all from this one race. Yes it was a very talented field, no question, but it's hard to believe that all eight are faster than every other great southern runner for the past 20 years. Geoff It's not just at the Foot Locker South course where course record lists have been rewritten. This year the times at Mt. SAC have been ridiculous. For years, anyone breaking 15 was a true stud. Now you have guys who are good, but not great dipping under the 15-minute barrier. Sure, Amber Trotter is damn fast, but she's not 30 seconds faster than Anita Siraki, who broke Julia Stamps's CR. The course has been changed somehow, and it's wreaking havoc on the all-time lists. Bummer. sideshow From one year to the next who can remember exactly how to mark the course? Loops do tend to get shorter, curves straightened, and corners cut. That's why we have tracks. Then we can try to remember about how far from the curb they should be measured and where the steeple starts. Tom
Re: t-and-f: McCLOY
Old age leads my friend Mike to exaggerate. You didn't have to go all the way into lane three to avoid flailing McCloy. You could have one foot on the lane three line and still be safe. Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Fanelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 4:34 AM Subject: t-and-f: McCLOY in my days as t f promotions guy with Reebok (help me out here Mr Derderian) we referred to Paul McCloy as three lane...because one needed to get out to at LEAST lane three to get around the guy Mike Fanelli your San Francisco Bay Area real estate resource Pacific Union Real Estate Group Ltd. (415) 447 - 6254 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.SFabode.com www.MarinHouseHunting.com
Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong
From: Robert Hersh Message text written by Thomas J. Derderian So I wonder, who is Josh Cox afraid of? He, and all the other Americans today, should be afraid of the Kenyans, Ethiopians, North Africans, Japanese, Mexicans, etc.They are losing marathons, and losing them badly. If they needed to find people to be afraid of, they'd find plenty of them. Ok, right, but my thesis is that athletes are most motivated to beat or keep from being beaten by proximate people...the ones they know and see regularly rather than distant, albeit, worthy seldom seen or unpredictably encountered athletes from the other side of the world. Although they should be motivated to beat the best. Tom Derderian
t-and-f: Funny names for runners
211 Scarlett Leta Regis College 199 26:41 8:36 I picked this out of the ECAC results held at Williams College today. This beats my previous favorite, Autumn Fogg. Or is someone pulling my (our) leg (legs)...at least it was not the Nathanial Hawthorn Invitational... Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club
Re: t-and-f: Takahashi trivia EMBARASSING!!
In 1983 Tom Ratcliff ran 2:19:51 at Boston, the year Greg Meyer won in 2:09, and placed 83 with only 4 non USA in the top fifty. - Original Message - From: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Takahashi trivia EMBARASSING!! I wonder where 2:19:46 would have been 15-20 years ago? 100th?...maybe? Oh how the mighty have fallen. If we had 100 runners running an average of 140-50 a week with flirtations with 200 how many sub 2:20s would we have? Apparently the Japanese already have this answer. I also doubt they took 10 years to build up to near 200 mpw levels. Alan From: Mike Fanelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Mike Fanelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED], Track Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED], Track Field List [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce and Rosemary Deacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Takahashi trivia EMBARASSING!! Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:46:47 -0700 Received: from [128.223.142.13] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBD83ADBE00804004310A80DF8E0DF17F0; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:58:53 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost)by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f930sV918454for t-and-f-outgoing; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com [207.46.181.87])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f930sUA18448for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c1721414b ([24.254.11.149]) by cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3779); Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:53:45 -0700 From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:59:46 -0700 Message-ID: 000f01c14ba4$e1ecd940$[EMAIL PROTECTED] References: 015101c14b9f$974131c0$[EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2001 00:53:45.0406 (UTC) FILETIME=[DAB4E5E0:01C14BA5] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk The fact that 2:19:46 would be number 11 amongst American men this year is downright EMBARASSING!! Mike Fanelli your San Francisco Bay Area real estate resource Pacific Union Real Estate Group Ltd. (415) 447 - 6254 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.SFabode.com www.MarinHouseHunting.com Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:54:40 -0400 From: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Takahashi trivia Trivia answer: 11th place Trivia question: Where would Naoko Takahashi stand on this year's U.S. marathon list ... for men. 2:12:41 - Rod DeHaven 2:16:17 - Josh Cox 2:16:48 - Eddy Hellebuyck 2:17:24 - Eric Polonski 2:17:47 - Kevin Collins 2:18:13 - Mike Dudley 2:18:34 - Matt Capelouto 2:18:57 - Danny Gough 2:18:58 - Mark Coogan 2:19:42 - Dennis Simonaitis (2:19:46 - Naoko Takahashi) And in Canada-2nd just barely: 2:18:54, Bruce Deacon (2:19:46 - Naoko Takahashi) Regards, Martin _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Naoko Takahashi interview after Berlin
I read the interview Ken kindly sent along. It I saw: It was the great course. Because of the help I got from my pacers and guards it was easy to run. Then Ken asks, Now, I would like to solicit opinions (which this list is never short on). What is the significance of first sub 2:20? I think the list will comment on the use of pacers and guards. Is such use really racing? Or do we see the sub 2:20 as an interesting time trial and Takahashi's Olympic victory as a real race. Those are my unguarded remarks. Tom Derderian
Re: t-and-f: DELTA AIRLINES STINK
John, You could change your mind and go regardless and teach your team a lesson in courage. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Track List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: t-and-f: DELTA AIRLINES STINK I was planning on taking my team, Don Bosco Prep of Ramesy NJ, for an exciting cross country weekend at Disney in early October. We had looked forward to this trip for many months. Then the recent events of September 11th and all our plans were changed. The school did not feel that it was right to aks these boys to step on a plane, which I totally agree. Many of the parents were also concerned about the possible trip so we called it off. I contacted the hotel(Amerisuites) where we had signed a contract, they understood, canceled the rooms with no penalty, and wished us the best. Disney is returning our entry fee, this is unheard of-nor was it asked for. But Delta airlines has refused to refund our tickets. HOW LOW CAN YO GO? They have offered that we can use the tickets for 1 year, but have to pay fees of $100.00 per ticket. That is 1/2 the value. DELTA STICKS!! Many of us were effected by the events of September 11th and have lost family and friends. Now Delta looks to steal our money! Below you will see their response to us regarding a refund request. Can any of you help? Thank you, John Nepolitan Don Bosco Prep Ramsey, NJ Dear Mr. Nepolitan, Thank you for contacting Delta Air Lines. Thank you for your additional comments. In light of the recent events, we can appreciate your decision not to travel. While we would like to offer special consideration to your request, we are unable to honor the many similar requests that we receive from others in equally deserving situations. We established and adhere to a consistent refund policy that ensures Delta is equitable to everyone who travels with us. Consequently, we respectfully decline your request for a refund. We are hopeful that as time goes on your confidence in the nations airline industry will be renewed. Since your ticket is valid for one year from the issue date, the residual value of your ticket, after applicable service fees and penalties are applied, may be used toward future travel. We would welcome a future opportunity to be of service. We appreciate your interest in Delta Air Lines. Sincerely, Concetta Anzulewicz Online Customer Care
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Yes, after cowboys and indians came middle school age football. My parents might give me a ride to saturday practice or a game but they would never come the 2 miles to hang around and pick me up so I and all the other guys walked home wearing our football stuff and carrying the helmet. (I didn't think to call them on my cell phone) All over town kids walked places. That was what kids did. When you got bored of walking, you ran. When you got tired, you walked. There was nothing to be afraid of. Tom - Original Message - From: Geoff Pietsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Tom - and others - are right about how active we were in the good old days (yeah, I think they were), but it was far more than cowboys and Indians. After all, we outgrew that stuff by 3rd grade (well, some of us). But from then on it was any and every sport - whatever was in season - none of it parent organized. Touch football, basketball, baseball
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
No more really except the volume of automobile traffic and the perception from the TV news that the world is dangerous, especially for children. Even my mother who allowed me unlimited geographical range when I was a child cautions me about her grandchildren, Lotta crazy people in this world... I figure she reads the backs of too many milk cartons. But I think this kind of fearfulness, fear of risk, hurts track and field. Tom - Original Message - From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:37 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Geez, is there anything nowadays to be all that afraid of? In my town the only thing you have to be scared of are cars... but I imagine that was the same 15, 25, or 35 years ago. M From: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:06:10 -0400 Yes, after cowboys and indians came middle school age football. My parents might give me a ride to saturday practice or a game but they would never come the 2 miles to hang around and pick me up so I and all the other guys walked home wearing our football stuff and carrying the helmet. (I didn't think to call them on my cell phone) All over town kids walked places. That was what kids did. When you got bored of walking, you ran. When you got tired, you walked. There was nothing to be afraid of. Tom - Original Message - From: Geoff Pietsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Tom - and others - are right about how active we were in the good old days (yeah, I think they were), but it was far more than cowboys and Indians. After all, we outgrew that stuff by 3rd grade (well, some of us). But from then on it was any and every sport - whatever was in season - none of it parent organized. Touch football, basketball, baseball _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
What few kids do now in the USA is incorporate moving over the ground as part of childhood play. Long before I thought of running on a team in a competition I ran around for transportation, back in my 1950s childhood, in my dungarees and US keds. Running was part of play, whether a cowboy or an indian.Our horses were painted sticks with shoe laces for reins. Then freshman year of HS running the 2.5 mile cross-country course on the first day did not seem to be unusual for me or any of us. Tom Derderian, still playing cowboys and indians - Original Message - From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: RE: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Mike Contopoulos says: There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running at an early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early age. Because distance running IS NOT any other sport. Last time I checked it was more stressful than golf and baseball, the examples you gave. And yes, kiddies play tennis at age 6, the classes I watch look like romper room on a big, green court. It DOES NOT resemble the tough training and practice required when they are more physically ready, and much older than 6. Look over the lists of American men and women who actually made it to World-class in the Steeple/5k/10k ... XC or marathon. You will find a lot of guys who WERE NOT EVEN HS STUDS. You will not find many age-group prodigies. I can think of only TWO age-group stars who made it that far ... and they both were women who ran the 800m in HS.
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Yeah, tell me about it, our school had a really lousy cafeteria too. Tom Derderian I remember a workout one day back in high school where everyone was doing speed work -sprinters, hurdlers, distance runners, jumpers .. Seemed like at any one given moment half the team was kneeling beside the track giving up a portion of their lunch !!
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I do have kids, girls, 10 and 12. Last week we ran a x-c relay together 4x2.5 miles with Cynthia. We did the same thing last year. They took it seriously, especially the sprinting to the hand off at the end. A nice family thing and matching t-shirts. I did expect them to run faster than last year and of course the big joke is when the girls will run faster legs than their parents. I think their weekly mileage is less than 10. They really like running fast down rocky hills in the woods. The mostly like the food at the end. But the danger is not lack of training or overtraining but kids who do not even play by covering ground on their own two legs. My theory is that kids, especially girls do not even walk let alone run because of fear of crime and the convenience of cars and TV so they do not mineralize their bones and thus get far too many stress fracture when in High School they go out for cross-country. Kids must walk many miles a day 3-6 in the course of their playing long before they train for running. But I have to go now and give my daughter a ride into town... Tom No, I don't have kids. And when I do, I'm not going to make him go out and run 60 miles a week at 10 years old.
Re: RE: t-and-f: SI article about most overrated and underrated
7. What would be his role today - coach, official, agent, promoter, commentator, or some combination? bartender at the Silver Dollar Club. I think he would have been co-owner by now, with Lindgren.
Re: t-and-f: How about a mile steeplechase?
When I was a freshman in college UMASS 1967, there was such a thing as a 1500 meter steeplechase. It was a good introduction to the event because a young runner could go fast enough to fly over the hurdles and jump before going into the death march when the barriers grow to six feet high. Too bad the event vanished the next year. It would be good for the development of the event to go a mile, or 1500, or 2km, but a mile would capture the imagination. Now we have to think through the placement of the barriers and jumps, start and finish, measure, inside and out, etc., Tom Derderian, too old for 36 hurdles too young for 30. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:33 AM Subject: t-and-f: How about a mile steeplechase? Y ask: I was on vacation the day BB No. 2 got steeple record -- the news was buried in agate in most papers. Got me to thinking: Are world-class steeplers capable of running barriers and water jumps under 4 minutes for a mile? What would the mile steeple entail -- 8 barriers and 3 water jumps? Anyone ever consider this? Ken Stone http://www.crazytrackideas.com
Re: t-and-f: DNFs: a growing trend?
Intriguing question: Let me suggest that if the reason for running is to make money, DNF often makes sense, but if the reason is to prove how tough you are, DNF is failure. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Sandrak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 9:00 PM Subject: t-and-f: DNFs: a growing trend? Are there any statistics about the historical occurrence of DNFs in track and field? (leaving aside rabbits) Is it my imagination, or are they on the increase? The comment I knew I wasn't going to win (or move on to the final), so why bother? seems to have come up more frequently in the past few years. This is often couched in the 'why-bother-risking-(further)-injury' concept. If DNFs are on the increase, does it say something about a change in psychology among athletes or in the culture of (professional) athletics? Or sports in general. Or 'society' in general (though it would be interesting to see if there are cross-cultural differences in the rate of bailing a race). Sandra
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Ed, I think the meaningful part applies to the notion that British athletes should train harder as Coe suggests in order to beat the Africans. If the reason for training harder is solely to beat the Africans then the numbers Entine quotes are meaningful, but if the reason for a Brit to train harder is to beat the other Brits then the statistically significant numbers are not meaningful since they would not change the behavior of the Brit trying to beat all the other Brits. Tom Derderian, the fastest 52 year-old Armenian middle distance runner in the world (it IS my genetics)...most Armenians are much better weight lifters or wrestlers. I am a genetic freak among my people, an outlier. - Original Message - From: Ed Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:58 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running We are talking population genetics. When 7 percent of the world's population holds 98 percent of the top times in sprinting, and 5 percent holds more than 70 percent of the top endurance times, it is meaningful. statistically significant, yes. meaningful? I have yet to be convinced it means anything important. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: This week's Sports Illustrated.
Yeah, I use to have trouble counting too when I was in my prime. Hard training really retards one's abilities with numbers. But seriously we have club members who aren't and weren't very fast but have heart rates in the thirties. They are all well trained and most have relatives who have slow heart rates and low blood pressures. Tom with a pounding heart in Boston - Original Message - From: Benji Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: tf list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:33 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: This week's Sports Illustrated. speaking of Armstrong, the other night on David Letterman, Armstrong said his resting heart rate was in the thirties. No wonder he can pump that bike up the mountains. I have heard of low 40's but not sure on anyone in the thirties. phil weishaar chapman kansas I was in the 30's in my prime and Kim Jones saw 25-27 regularly during her peak years. Benji Durden
Re: t-and-f: EPO Question
I just watched a video tape about climbing Mt Everest. The same story as in the excellent 1997 book Into Thin Air. People spend a great deal of money and time to climb Mt. Everest. Most use bottled oxygen, why not EPO? Anyone heard of high altitude climbers using EPO? Tom Derderian, at sea-level, in Boston - Original Message - From: Buck Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jason Wiens [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TF [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 5:23 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: EPO Question Hi Jason, You're a physiologist and you probably studied a lot of this, so forgive me if I'm telling you things you already know. Based on my guesses from prescribed doses used to treat anemia in chemotherapy patients, a typical regimen would run $300-$500 a week. That's based on typical pharmacy prices, if you're buying it black market who knows? Obviously it's a prescription drug and is illegal to obtain or possess without such. It comes in several formulations - either one dose per vial or many per vial. The difference is whether a preservative is added. A report came out recently indicating that some clinics were pooling and re-using the remainder of the 'one-dose' vials - lead to a bunch of sick patients. The drug is injected, either i.v. or subcutaneously (like insulin). You can learn to do that yourself with training. You would definitely need someone with medical training to do hematocrit testing on a regular basis (weekly?). The danger with EPO is driving your hematocrit too high leading to myocardial infarction or stroke - both bad. My guess is that one loses the normal homeostatic regulation of hematocrit when taking the drug exogenously (i.e. from outside the body). Normally you body responds to high hematocrit by slowing down natural production of EPO. It may also remove RBC's more quickly - not sure about the latter, but I'd bet on it. I would also bet that EPO inhibits the latter process - that's how things tend to work. When one takes EPO, despite a high crit, EPO is still present and will inhibit the bodies normal homeostatic reaction. The same kind of thing happens over time with diabetics and insulin. They lose the normal ability to correct hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) by secreting glucagon (the hormone that stimulates release of glucose from the liver). It's a side-effect of chronic injections of insulin and is part of why they are so susceptible to hypoglycemia with insulin over-doses. Many don't know this, but the other thing that is required is iron supplementation. Doping with EPO increases the synthesis of RBC's, and thus of hemoglobin. Without the iron, you could take all the EPO you wanted without making a difference. So, if one wants to dope, all one has to do is find a doctor or pharmacist who is willing to lose his or her license and perhaps go to prison, stick yourself with a needle three times a week (four if you count the hematocrit test), pony up $2000 a month, risk your health, and give up any self respect. Plus, given that you can legally drive your hematocrit up to the highest levels I would consider safe by moving to Albuquerque, I think it's really stupid. My personal opinion is that it doesn't happen in college that much. Cheers, Buck Jones p.s. To those like Garry Hill who might consider this naught but 'Reefer madness' scare tactics, I know what I'm talking about and will be glad to debate my opinions. I single Garry out because he has stated his stance before - maybe he's reformed :-) ___ Carleton 'Buck' Jones, Ph.D. Division of Pharmacology/College of Pharmacy The Ohio State University 500 W. 12th Avenue Columbus, OH 43210 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 614-688-3527 614-292-9083 (FAX) -Original Message- From: Jason Wiens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Track and Field List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 9:44 AM Subject: t-and-f: EPO Question I'm wondering what people think the prevalence of EPO use is among College athletes? How would factors like cost, availability, access to a medical doctor affect the use and possibly make its use prohibitive? Thank you for your help, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anything that enters your HEART changes YOU! _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/Research Associate_/ _/Department of VCAPP _/ _/Washington State University _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ To love a person is to see them as God intended them to be. --Dostoyevsky
Re: t-and-f: USATF Release: Team USA roster for World Championships announced
Because only the roster is announced, not the entries or the declared competitors or the starters. Tom D. - Original Message - From: Tony Banovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:00 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: USATF Release: Team USA roster for World Championships announced Why is Chris Clark shown on the marathon team when she has already announce that she'll bypass Edmonton for New York. will someone be named to take her place? Tony At 08:23 PM 7/24/01 -0400, you wrote: CONTACT:Jill M. Geer Director of Communications 317-261-0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Tuesday, July 24, 2001 Team USA roster for World Championships announced INDIANAPOLIS - With 13 current or former Olympic gold medalists leading the way, Team USA will enter the IAAF World Outdoor Track Field Championships August 3-12 in Edmonton, Canada, in position to defend its status as the World's #1 Track Field Team. Olympic gold medalists Marion Jones, Maurice Greene, Stacy Dragila, Angelo Taylor, Allen Johnson, Gail Devers, Bernard Williams, Tim Montgomery, Antonio Pettigrew, Jerome Young, Jon Drummond, Chryste Gaines and Monique Hennagan are on the Team USA roster for Edmonton, announced Tuesday by USA Track Field. Sixty-three of the team's athletes were 2000 Olympians. U.S. athletes who will defend 1999 World titles include Jones, who returns to defend her 1999 World Championship in the 100 meters and will go for her first 200 title in Edmonton; Greene in the men's 100, 200; Dragila in the women's pole vault; Devers in the women's 100m hurdles; and Inger Miller in the women's 200. Also entering the meet as a favorite is World Indoor champion John Godina in the shot put, Olympic gold medalist Angelo Taylor in the 400m hurdles, world record holder Khalid Khannouchi in the men's marathon, World Indoor champion Lawrence Johnson in the men's pole vault, and Olympic champion Nick Hysong in the men's pole vault. Also announced Tuesday were the women's relay pools. Listed in the 4x100 pool are 1996 Olympic relay gold medalists Chryste Gaines and Inger Miller, 2000 Olympic relay bronze medalist Torri Edwards; three-time NCAA 100m champion Angela Williams, U.S. third-place finisher Kelli White, U.S. Championships 100m finalist Brianna Glenn, and any other athlete on the Team USA roster. In the women's 4x400 pool are two-time Olympic relay gold medalist Jearl Miles-Clark, 2000 relay gold medalist Monique Hennagan, Olympian Michelle Collins, 400m team member Demetria Washington, Olympic relay pool member Miki Barber and her twin sister, Me'Lisa Barber, two-time U.S. Indoor champion Suziann Reid, and any U.S. team member. Marion Jones' relay status has not yet been decided. The announcement of the Team USA World Championships roster carried a few changes or clarifications: Regina Jacobs, U.S. champion at 800m and 1,500m, has entered those two events. She had placed second in the 5,000m at the GMC Envoy USA Outdoor Championships and was eligible to compete in the longer event as well. Jacobs will be replaced in the 5,000 by two-time Olympian Amy Rudolph. Olympic and World Championships relay gold medalist Jon Drummond was added to the men's 4x100m relay pool, as well as Mickey Grimes. Orin Ritchburg of the University of Washington leads the men's team as head coach. His staff includes assistants Ron Allice (Southern Cal), Ken Bantum (former St. John's coach), Ken Brauman (Seminole HS) and Kelly Sullivan (Willamette). Team manager is James Williams (Minnesota State-Moorhead), assisted by Scott Davis (Mt SAC Relays). J.J. Clark of the University of Florida heads the women's coaching staff. Joining him on staff as assistants are Beth Alford-Sullivan (Penn State), Chandra Cheeseborough (Tennessee State), Ramona Pagel (Ken State) and John Rembao (University of Texas). Head manager is Maryanne Torrellas (Connecticut Racewalkers Club), assisted by Kim Duyst (Cal State-Stanislaus). TEAM USA ROSTER, 2001 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS As of July 24, 2001 Subject to change MEN 100m: Tim Montgomery, Bernard Williams, Curtis Johnson, Maurice Greene 200m: Shawn Crawford, Ramon Clay, Kevin Little, Maurice Greene 400m: Antonio Pettigrew, Leonard Byrd, Jerome Young 800m: David Krummenacker, Derrick Peterson, Khadevis Robinson 1500m: Seneca Lassiter, Paul McMullen, Gabriel Jennings 3000m Steeplechase: Thomas Chorny, Anthony Famiglietti, Tim Broe 5000m: Bob Kennedy, Adam Goucher, Nick Rogers 10,000m: Abdi Abdirahman, Mebrahtom Keflezighi, Alan Culpepper Marathon: Khalid Khannouchi, David Morris, Josh Cox, Eddy Hellebuyck, Mike Dudley 110m Hurdles: Allen Johnson, Terrence Trammell, Dawane Wallace 400m Hurdles: Angelo Taylor, Calvin Davis, James Carter 20K Walk: Tim Seaman 50K Walk: Phillip Dunn, Curt Clausen High Jump: Nathan
Re: t-and-f: Junior qualifying
Title: Re: t-and-f: Junior qualifying Tom Fleming et al, The local high school track coach lives across the street and has no track and field interest beyond the team's win/loss record and not the lightest curiosity in the Greater Boston Track Club and the caliber of athleteswho come in and out of my door. I wish some of the list member HS coaches lived across the street, then I at age 52 would not be the fastest miler in town. The entire conference has a similar attitude except for one town that dominates the conference to the complaints of the other coaches...who should, rather than complain, imitate. Which coaches are the rule and which the exception? Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Tom Fleming To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Junior qualifying on 7/19/01 12:19 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/19/01 9:07:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: my experience that most high school coaches are oblivious to anything that occurs outside the high school framework or even outside their own conference. I wonder if half of them even know there is such an organization as USATF, let alone know that USATF is responsible for selecting international youth teams. In addition, most seem to have no knowledge of or interest in the sport at the national or international level This is the MOST asinine statement ever made on this LISTSERV. And that's saying a mouthful, to anyone who's been on it for longer than a month. Do you really think high school coaches are just a bunch of dumb-***ed know-nothingings just fumbling though the season? Open up Jack Shepard's HS Annual and look at what HS coaches are doing with the talent in the USA. I used to think you had something to contribute to this list. If this is the depth of your insight in what's happening in our sport I guess you're other instant delete candidate. Please reread your written thoughts before hitting Send Now. Save everyone from wallowing in the shallow end of the pool. Andy Ferrara HS Track Team Power Ratings www.hstrack.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eisenhower HS Houston, TX Andy and all!I second your comments 100% ... right on! My reaction was that I laughed aloud at the statement made ... and YES Andy, there are "fools" out there in listserverland!l've spent over 10 yrs with development in our "post college" athletes ... and guess what? We need better identification, development and higher competitive aspirations at ALL levels ... and especially IF USA is going to stay in the top of World Ranking lists.YES, WE care, Tom Fleming, Head X-c and Track Field Coach Montclair Kimberley Academy, Montclair, NJ
Re: t-and-f: Re: Liars Club
I thought it was Shorter who said it but if everyone ran 4:30 in HS then maybe more than one person later said that everyone ran 4:30 in HS. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Tom Fleming [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edward Koch [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Barretts [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 7:16 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: Liars Club on 7/7/01 8:33 PM, Edward Koch at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Shorter is quoted in the novel Once a Runner as having said that everybody ran 4:30 in high school. Does anyone know who said it first? Ed Koch -Original Message- From: The Barretts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:30 PM Subject: t-and-f: Re: Liars Club Yeah, right. First, he's contradicting BR, who said everyone ran 4:30 in high school. Second, he was baiting you. Top 10 possible responses: 10) Barefoot, uphill, into the wind? 9) You coulda made a good living as a marathoner... 8) I suppose this was drug aided? Perhaps Lemon-aided? 7) We'll, I ran 4:09 you loser... 6) If that was run in the spring in New England, you could ask for a 11 second deduction now, making you sub-4. : : 1) Was that for 1600m? Oh, right, you're _way_ too old for that one... Ok, I'll keep the day job... Richard Kurt, I had occasion to meet Jack Lemon about 10 years ago and having heard that he was a top New England h. s. miler I asked what he ran for timeHe paused for a second, looked away from me, turned back to me and said Oh about 4.10 I smiled and said that's terrific thanked him for his time and leftLarry Rawson To all, I am correcting myself ... I'm 100% sure now that the 4:30 mile quote comes directly from Marty Liquori ... and he was right, IT DID SEEM that all HS kids could run a 4:30 mile (on cinders) when they were in high school. I know we had 5 kids in the 30's in one season ... but we had NONE at 4:10! TF
Re: t-and-f: Runners Form
Byron makes a good point. The exercise physiologists talk about efficiency by describing the amount of oxygen consumed at a sub-max effort like in a long distance race. A runner is more efficient if less oxygen per kilogram of body weight per second is used at a specific pace than an other runner. But such a determination cannot be applied to a runner exceeding VO2 max such has an 800 runner. Perhaps there is another measure of maybe lactic acid production at a given pace where the runner producing less lactic acid at perhaps a 60 sec 400 is more efficient. I don't know if such testing is done on 800 meter runners as sub-max testing is done on marathoners. Does anyone know of a measurement of efficiency for anaerobic running? We should not confuse a measurable thing like efficiency with an aesthetic judgment like fluidity of form. Some runners may look smooth but may or may not be efficient in their use of energy. Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club - Original Message - From: Byron Dyce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Eckmann, Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 9:57 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Runners Form In my very humble opinion, efficiency should only be defined relative to each distance or event. What is an effiecient form or style for running an 800m race will probably not be efficient for running a marathon, etc. Byron Eckmann, Drew wrote: With all this talk on form and efficiency, who out there are the most efficient runners that you have all seen? clearly Frank Shorter I'd go with Wilson Kipketer. /Drew
t-and-f: NCAA USATF Champs Women not Invented
The young women I coach have no appreciation that before 1972 women track athletes weren't invented (ok, barely) and what the pioneers went through to make women's track and field equal to men's. These youngsters can't imagine a time when women were not considered. Tom Derderian, Boston - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:04 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: NCAA USATF Champs in Same City In a message dated Mon, 11 Jun 2001 2:51:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobhersh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In 1972 the NCAA and Olympic Trials were both held in Eugene (although remember that the Olympic Trials were not the National Championships at that time). Remember, too, that both of those meets were men-only at that time. as were the NCs and AAUs of '23 and '33. gh
t-and-f: Team vs individ, was my Pre Classic comments
I think of track and field as competition during training as well as the meets. We compete against the other guys when we plan our training and do it together 6 days of the week. That's when teamwork is apparent in our sport-when we train together, then in the one meet day every athlete is alone. Tom Derderian, GBTC - Original Message - From: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:30 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: my Pre Classic comments --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Track is a team sport and putting your self-interest ahead of the team goal is thoughtless. That's a stretch. As far as team sports go, track is about as individual of a team sport as you can get. Sure you compete as a team (not always), but the majority of the performances are purely individual. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can! http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
t-and-f: on muscle fiber type
Talbot wrote: Martin and Coe have a short discussion on this very subject in (Better) Training for Distance Runners, probably the best read there is on distance running. A very valuable book. I took notes and always keep it within arms reach. Knowing it would add much to anyone's understands of these discussions. Tom Derderian, GBTC
Re: t-and-f: Re: Fast twitch/slow twitch question?
So, for 20 million you could go into orbit and the zero G would convert your slow twitch to fast...Is that what Tito was doing? Tom - Original Message - From: Ed Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:58 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: Fast twitch/slow twitch question? Paul - Great, informative post. I had not been aware of this research. A question, which may be more theoretical than scientific, will untrained fast-twitch muscles be able to sprint faster than trained slow-twitch muscles? And is it possible for a reasonably active person to change the composition of fibers significantly based on the type of training he does, or is it only by removing all stress on the muscle that the fibers revert to fast twitch? Is there any reseach that suggests that the fiber-switch that Paul observed in unweighted muscles could be stimulated in a more practical way? - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Re: Fast twitch/slow twitch question?
I think Jon and the parents and the coach may have missed something about the school girls who were sprinters in the spring, ran cross-country and in the subsequent spring, could not sprint as well. I suspect they just grew. They got bigger and heavier and slower. The fiber type didn't change, just the load did. The science would know their weight before and after. Something which I we don't know. But that seems the simplest answer. Tom, who is much older, heavier, and slower. - Original Message - From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Track and Field List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 8:33 PM Subject: t-and-f: Re: Fast twitch/slow twitch question? Paul: The coach and the parents of these girls do not know what they are talking about. Here's a few relevant paragraphs from Taboo. deleted stuff from Taboo, because you should have the book on your bookshelf. I coach cross country in the fall at one school and track in the spring at another school (very small). While watching some of the girls running the 4 x 400 relay (from the team that I coach cross country with, but not track), I saw some new faces that were running about 61 and 63 second splits. I made reference that we should try and recruit these girls for cross country in the fall to try and help rebuild our team (defending state champions). Some coaches and the parents of these girls heard me say this and ALL had the following response. If these girls run cross country they will lose their fast twitch muscles while developing slow twitch muscles. When spring comes around for track season, these so called sprinters will not be the same because they cannot regain the fast twitch muscles that they lost. The parents of these girls told me that their doctor had told them this theory when they had specificaly asked him the question. The parents are somewhat interested in having the girls run cross country, but don't want to see them run slower during track because of cross country. This same theory was also told to me from one of these girls coaches. He says that Time and time again he has seen sprinters join cross country in the fall to try and stay in shape, and then not be the same sprinter the following spring because of what cross country did to them. I would greatly apprecriate any research that has been done on the subject, and you may either reply to me privately or to the list. I'm not an expert on the fast twitch/slow twitch muscle thing, but based on numerous years of coaching and T F education I can't say that I agree 100 percent to their theory. Since I am not an expert, I am looking for those in the know to just clarify things for me. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, but I just want to be 100 percent positive on my facts when I present my case. :) Paul Nisius Bigfork, MN -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: RE: Salazar Eugene 10k ?
The Boston Marathon in 1982 was contested on Monday, April 19th. On March 21, 1982 Salazar placed second to Mohamed Kedir in the World Cross in Rome. Salazar had already run 2:08:13 in NY in the previous fall. (Called a world record but later measured short.) I looked it up. The story is told in the 1982 chapter of my book where I contrast Salazar and Beardsley, very different guys with very different backgrounds and very similar running ability. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: t-and-f [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 1:04 PM Subject: t-and-f: RE: Salazar Eugene 10k ? I believe it was NINE days before. His big goal was to simulate a 10k/marathon double at the LA Olympics (back when distance stars did such things), to see how his body would handle an all-out 10k a short time before a tough marathon. The Boston Marathon is usually April 18/19 or so ... That would make that Eugene 10k around April 9/10, 1982. -Original Message- From: Joe Rubio [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:01 PM To: Mcewen, Brian T Cc: t-and-f Subject: Salazar Eugene 10k ? Mcewen, Brian T wrote: 3) If El Salazar can run 27:30 in a downpour, with no rabbits, and the outcome in doubt right up until the end, in EARLY-April NO LESS ... Question here. Is my mind screwed up again or wasn't that 27:30 10k Salazar ran in Eugene 10 days before the Boston Marathon where he won? Joe
t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism
What if, Jon, 20 years from now Africans lose their depth and say the Japanese begin to dominate...then what? Will your findings still hold true? What would the scientists of the early 20th century say about the Finnish runners now? They dominated so well, but then fell off the earth. Well, in MY book. Boston Marathon history. I tell about the reactions to American Indian runners, Canadian runners, Korean runners, Finnish runners, Japanese, and even Americans. Always there was the opinions that they had special advantages. The if only lament is very human. It is interesting to see how things shift over 100 years. But no group had the domination of the Kenyans at Boston. But no group had the big bucks of John Hancock pulling them out of their home countries. So let's get away from the cultural, the genetic, and maybe discuss the economic angle here particularly that of sponsors and agents. Stuff that wasn't around in the olden days. The last chapter of the second edition is titled Secrets and Agents. Soon I have to write a third edition. What do guys think of that? $$$ but how exactly is the money driving the sport? How do you make money, sell products and services. Follow the money? Where does it come from and where does it go? Tom Derderian
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Jon and the list, I did not conclude that the difference at the top is cultural. I conclude that that difference in the 2:15-2:25 is cultural and I wonder why. I am not arguing with Taboo. I read it. Carefully. It makes sense. But I am trying to change the subject of discussion to the next tier of performance. I think this new issue about which none of us have researched and written a book is interesting. I will throw out a few comments about why there are fewer 2:15-2:25 guys than in the recent past: 1.Post collegians have better jobs now than were available. 2. They have to make more money to pay off college loans. 3. It costs more to live. 4. They have tiring commutes to work. 5. There are more cars on the road so running is more exhausting (pun) with death-at-your-elbow then it was in the 70's. 6. Young guys get beat by women and old men in their first road races and quit. 7. There are fewer young guys. Any one got any more? I bet we could get to 101 reasons. No single one dominates but it like death by a thousand cuts. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:39 AM Subject: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The chances of a white is about 1 in 95,000. As one would expect, very talented whites who might, if life broke their way, make it into the NBA peel away long before they have a chance to test whether they have the physical and mental attributes to make it. I would expect that the same thing is happening in distance running... Some potentially super elite whites are deciding to say, become a biker, because they look around them and all the stars are from Kenya, Ethiopia, ettc. If people were a little more educated about body type profiles and physiology, I believe far fewer talented athletes would peel away from sports or events in which they are emminently suited for. In summary, to conclude that difference at the very very top are cultural may not be supported by the weight of the evidence. Do you have any figures comparing sub 2:12, or even sub 2:10. Has that number decreased? On 4/24/01 2:47 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Derderian wrote: Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among Americas to count or even score on the Greater Boston team. That time in 2001 would have been about what Danny Reed ran for 35th place overall and 7th American. Those are the numbers. That difference IS cultural. The interesting question is why. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: national class American marathoners
This may not be the whole story but for the 1972 trials the qualifying time was 2:30. No one got air fare to Eugene. My time for Boston 1970 counted. By 1976 the qualifying time was sub 2:20 to get air fare to Eugene. For that year I qualified in Boston in 1975. I think it took 2:22 or 2:23 to get in. But only marathons counted in those years. In 1968 things were less clear, I don't know because I was only a dreamer then. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'P.F.Talbot' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: national class American marathoners There were 201 qualifiers for the '84 men's trials and 225 for 1980, while for 2000 the number was 114. But you just can't compare simple numbers as the time cut-offs have changed for each Trials, as well as the length of time the qualifying window was open. And I know for women, but I'd have to check further for men, in several Olympic marathon trials one could qualify by bettering a time standard at a non-marathon distance or winning a non-marathon road national championship. -Original Message- From: P.F.Talbot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 12:48 PM To: Post, Marty Cc: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) Subject: Re: t-and-f: national class American marathoners Weren't there well over 100 qualifiers (maybe close to 200?) for the 1984 Olympic trials? I've always held that the main difference is milage. Not too many people are hitting 100+ mile weeks in college and high school any more so the post-collegians have a much rougher transition to the marathon than they once did (and of course far fewer try). On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Post, Marty wrote: At the 1983 Boston Marathon, 71 American men broke 2:20. On a single day. Last year, a total of 24 American men broke 2:20. For 366 days.(And the guy at the top was born and spent his early training years in Morocco.) Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among Americas to count or even score on the Greater Boston team. That time in 2001 would have been about what Danny Reed ran for 35th place overall and 7th American. Those are the numbers. That difference IS cultural. The interesting question is why. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 2:41 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance? 20 years ago Boston also had an Asian winner (but Seko was from Japan), his winning time was within 10 seconds of Bong-Ju. The 2nd and 3rd place times were very similar to 2001 (Virgin and Rodgers in mid-2:10's) ... the big difference was that in 1981 the top-thirty depth was a LOT better. Mostly white guys in that top-thirty too. Africans dominate the marathon? Sure they do. I just don't want to have to keep hearing about it every two weeks. Jon is right ... they dominate. Steve is right ... there are lots of reasons this is true. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 2:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance? Let's line up Shorter, Rodgers, Virgin, Meyer, Lindsay, Bjorkland, Durden, Wells, Beardsley, et al - most of whom competed at the same time at an elite level - at the starting line in Hopkington and the top ten would take a decidedly American look even today. Throw in whatever pharmeceuticals are currently in vogue and who knows what the possibilities would be. The countries of the British Isles can do the same. The problem is probably less a genetic issue than an interest as a competitive event issue at least in the US and the Celtic states. Steve S.
Re: t-and-f: promo of Mt. SAC
I am mad at Mt SAC too. (or the results program) The Greater Boston Track Club sent athletes to the meet at considerable effort and expense. I find their names in the results but no affiliation. Only unattached. It seemed only colleges were listed. Not clubs. There is a lack of post collegiate incentive. What is the old adage, if a tree runs in the woods and its affiliation is not listed in the results nobody made any noise ? Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: t-and-f: promo of Mt. SAC blabber on all you want about what should have been promoted re the Mt. SAC meet... all I know is, the largest, loudest group of fans over the three days of the meet appeared to be the parents of the young 'uns in the little-kid-relays on Sundaytalk about some yellin' and screamin'! now... where does THAT leave us in our discussion of where our fan base is? GM
t-and-f: Kurt Steiner
I met Kurt Steiner when I was 19 and running my first marathon in New York in the late 60s. The next time I came to New York he remembered my name. Such is heady stuff for a teenager to go 200 miles from home and be recognized. I liked that so I kept training hard so I could come back. Steiner had a habit at Boston for as many years as he could...like 20...to burst into the lead at the start and sprint as hard as he could to establish the seriousnessof the race for those of all abilities. Short and stubby he ran full of optimism.He was never a fast runner but tried very hard which, of course, is all anyone can do. I return his recognition by telling of his habit in my Boston Marathon book...(page 240 in the second edition and again on page 340)...so maybe people like Kurt Steiner would come back to the sport. (instead of young men who do not prepare and run 4 hour marathons and think they have accomplished something) Tom Derderian
Re: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon)
Let's delete this dichotomy entirely. Speed and endurance are not antithetical abilities. Think of it this way: if a runner had infinite speed and no endurance, the athlete would go nowhere quickly and in the converse, infinite endurance and no speed, the athlete would go nowhere and but not get tired. Of course list members are free to play with this reduction to absurdity. I think the point Lydiard and other have made is that young runners must avoid running in oxygen debt but do benefit from running very fast, even all-out, frequently for short burst no longer than 10 or 20 seconds, or the amount of time it takes to get to the soccer ball or first base. Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club - Original Message - From: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 7:16 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon) It is much more important to develop speed at a younger age because you can't reclaim it when you're older. Could someone delete this sentence from existance? Speed before endurance? M...dunno bout that one..;) That must be why hoards of Africans are running so well. You must develop a sound base of aerobic endurance through easy mileage and hard aerobic runs (threshold runs) before you introduce speed. Too much hard speedwork, not enough hard aerobic runs, that is part of the problem. Not training specifically for the marathon is yet another problem. Run a lot, week after week after week. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: New Speedometers
Glenn, Several of our GBTC guys have the FitSense devices and love them. It is like having a certified course with you where every you go. With that and a heart monitor all a runner might need is some CommonSense. Of course I must confess one of our guys invented it. (The FitSense device not CommonSense.) I was part of a group trying to invent such a device at Nike in the early 80s. (we failed) Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club - Original Message - From: Mccarthy, Glenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 6:29 PM Subject: t-and-f: New "Speedometers" If anyone has used the new FitSense or Nike "Speedometers" (devices that calculate distance run etc), and is willing to share your experiences and thoughts, I would appreciate your thoughts. Email me directly if you prefer. Glenn McCarthy
