RE: t-and-f: 400H
Netters Brian wrote: > There are bigger development issues. Yes. like for instance having the walk in H.S. and College. before any naysayers jump up and down, remember I learned to walk in H.S. in New York. Thanks in part to people like Louise and other rational people. I was a respected and valuable member of my team participating in the 2 mile relay and sometimes another event in addition to the mile walk. Those who have never had a chance to coach a walker are missing out on something.
RE: t-and-f: 400H
DGS wrote: . All States should run 400ih, it makes very little sense to run anything else. Especially, when outside of HS competitions the athlete will have to run the 400ih, and they train for the 400ih anyway. Right ... so it makes very little sense for them to be running the 3200m ... they ought to have the 5k and 10k, just like the collegiates and internationalists. They should also have a marathon, and at least the 20k walk also. They should compete with the heavier shot, the javelin should be a dual meet event, and girls should have a steeple. While they're at it ... boys and girls should have the Hammer throw also. We should also add a hep- and decathlon for teens also. And XC should be 8k for every dual meet ... but 12k for the Championship meets. After all, those are the events, weights, and distances that the 25 year olds compete at. One thing you guys are missing is that less than 5% of HS track athletes go on to run COLLEGE track ... the gifted ones. But ALL HS track athletes have to run those events while in HS. They work up to the 1500/Steeple by running the 800/1600/3200 they work up to the 5k/10k by running the 1600/3200m. They work up to the 10k XC distance by running the 5k for four years. Why should the the 400IH be so different? Because it's a sprint? To say that is to say that distance running is inherently more difficult and that the toughest sprint event is reasonable for a 15 year old. One other factor ...HS competition almost requires the sprinter/hurdlers to double, triple or quadruple ... In our state the 300 hurdles is at the end of the program ... before the 1600mR ... how hard would it be for a 15-16 year old to run the 400IH and then try to come back and run the relay? It would be somewhat harder than a 300m IH. Somehow I don't think that lack of a full 400m hurdles race is hurting US development either. Look at the history. There are bigger development issues. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 9:06 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: t-and-f: 400HThe inability of a few to make it through a race is not a good reason to deprive American HSers the development on an international level. What about the States that do run 400ih? What about those kids? Your hypothesis flies in the face of reality. All States should run 400ih, it makes very little sense to run anything else. Especially, when outside of HS competitions the athlete will have to run the 400ih, and they train for the 400ih anyway. DGS The G.O.A.T.
Re: t-and-f: 400H
I think the main reason for 300H over 400H in HS comes not from coaches' concerns over the extra 100m their athletes would be running, but from AD's concerned about the extra 2 hurdles (x 6 to 8 lanes) their BUDGETS would be paying for. Yeah, I know, you need 10 hurdles for each lane in the 100/110HH, but guess what? A lot of school only run 3-4 lanes in the highs, and 4-5 in the IH. It's rare to find a HS w/ 60 hurdles in good condition. Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: t-and-f: 400H
you are not getting on my case, mike...there is NO DOUBT in my mind that the nys girls ran the 400mh FIRST...i was state chairman.i loved it
Re: t-and-f: 400H
Netters Louise wrote: - we ran the 400h while the boys of the > state were doing the 300mh.. Louise, not to get on your case to much but I distinctly remember running the 400h as a freshman at Averill Park H.S. , Averill park N.Y. in 1980. Of course the next year I learned to walk but that is a different story.
Re: t-and-f: 400H
gh wrote: > As to the 300/400H, while nobody's going to die running the extra 100m, I wonder if in terms of teaching kids the hard-to->master technique of running with proper rhythm (i.e., number of steps) in a long hurdles race isn't better served by having >them compete at less than the full distance while young? Any qualified hurdle coaches out there have an opinion on that? Whether I am a "qualified" hurdles coach is debatable, but I have been the event coach for male high school 300m hurdlers of moderate ability (41 second range). I have no doubt that the transition from the high school 300's to the college 400's can be difficult. However, for all but the cream of the crop, the 300m hurdles race is a lot more similar to the 400m hurdles at that age/level. Most of them still struggle in the straight, just like the elite runners do in the 400 hurdles. I suspect that going that much faster over 300m makes the technique more like it is for the open 400m hurdles runners. There's no question that the very best guys outgrow the 300 hurdles by their senior year, and we have all seen some of the superfast seniors crash or stumble because they are simply too good to do anything less than sprint all out from the gun. But in the long run, this experience of running too fast will probably help them make the transition to a race where you have to risk losing your technique by pushing the limits of speed. In a way, it's like the steeplechase. For an average-sized distance runner, the barriers and water jump are best cleared at a pace no slower than about 4:50-5:00 per mile. Any slower than that and the momentum loss even with fairly good form is apparent. Although the event is not run that often, when I have had the opportunity to watch a 3000m steeple, it has been painful to watch 9:40-10:00 2-mile types trying to clear the barriers after the 1st 2 or 3 laps. Even if they have OK technique and aren't dying, it's difficult for a 5'10" athlete to clear the 36" barriers efficiently at 5:20 pace or slower. - Ed Parrot
RE: t-and-f: 400H
In a message dated Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:18:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael J. Roth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: << Track has a history of holding on to the past with a death grip, and these antiquated distances are another example of the old boys unwilling to change with the times. It has nothing to do with the athletes. If that was so, how does the HS senior only handle 300, but the college freshman deal w/ 400? There is little difference between the two athletes.>> While i agree that the "old boys" exhibit death grips from time to time (for a prime example, see XC distances runby women compared to men), there's a difference between "antiquated distances" and not bringing young athletes along too fast. You certainly wouldn't want your 13-year-old kid trying to throw a 16lb shot, for example. As to the 300/400H, while nobody's going to die running the extra 100m, I wonder if in terms of teaching kids the hard-to-master technique of running with proper rhythm (i.e., number of steps) in a long hurdles race isn't better served by having them compete at less than the full distance while young? Any qualified hurdle coaches out there have an opinion on that? gh
Re: t-and-f: 400H
At 05:22 PM 1/12/01 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated Fri, 12 Jan 2001 4:49:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > ><< before that.>> > >The old-fart contingent still remembers well when the tradition (for maaannny years) was to run the 180y lows! Try explaining that one to somebody from another country! (or to somebody now who wasn't there then). California State meet, for one, didn't switch until 1975. > >gh > Yeah, but in the U.S. most 180yLh and 220yLh were run on the straightaway. It was only the rare track that didn't have a 220 straight along the "finish" side of the track. Some of the straightaways, for example the old Rice Institute track on University Blvd. few blocks from where I used to live, had a straightaway which I seem to recall came through a tunnel and burst into the stadium; Lord only knows how they timed those 220s. I know that there was a 220 straight at the Michigan track, which was where Jesse Owens ran his WR 20.3y on that Day of Days, May 25, 1935. Before 1960 it was relatively rare (if not extremely rare) to see a 220y race run around a curve in the U.S.; even rarer to see a 200m, since almost all races were still run in Imperial distances then (and of course virtually all tracks were 440 yards per lap). jim dunaway
RE: t-and-f: 400H
Brian I have to disagree w/ you on the end of race issues. It is a lame excuse. In all the HS 400H races I've seen in NY, only one athlete has fallen and it was not because of the distance involved. The track was covered with black ice. (Not to say it doesn't happen) Track has a history of holding on to the past with a death grip, and these antiquated distances are another example of the old boys unwilling to change with the times. It has nothing to do with the athletes. If that was so, how does the HS senior only handle 300, but the college freshman deal w/ 400? There is little difference between the two athletes. What the coaches need to realize is that these kids will and can handle the work. They should not be afraid of challenging kids. This is not to say they should run 100 mile weeks, but they should be trained and in many cases they are not. MJR
Re: t-and-f: 400H
ok...the girls of new york state have been running the 400mh, the 1500mr, the 3000, and pentathlon for more than 20 years - i developed the program as the state chairperson in the early 80's - we ran the 400h while the boys of the state were doing the 300mh...louise
Re: t-and-f: 400H
The inability of a few to make it through a race is not a good reason to deprive American HSers the development on an international level. What about the States that do run 400ih? What about those kids? Your hypothesis flies in the face of reality. All States should run 400ih, it makes very little sense to run anything else. Especially, when outside of HS competitions the athlete will have to run the 400ih, and they train for the 400ih anyway. DGS The G.O.A.T.
Re: t-and-f: 400H
Iowa made the switch from 200m hurdles to 400m in the late 70s. The switch from mile to 1500m was made at the same time. IIRC, the policy was to compete in standard Olympic events. A 3000m run was added in '83, just after I graduated. Jennifer Peters Ten reasons to procrastinate: 1.
Re: t-and-f: 400H
gh wrote: > The old-fart contingent still remembers well when the tradition (for maaannny years) was to run the 180y lows! Try >explaining that one to somebody from another country! (or to somebody now who wasn't there then). California State meet, >for one, didn't switch until 1975. Didn't Jesse Owens win the 200m lows or some such distance in the 1936 Olympics? - ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: 400H
In a message dated 1/12/01 4:30:28 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The old-fart contingent still remembers well when the tradition (for maaannny years) was to run the 180y lows! Try explaining that one to somebody from another country! (or to somebody now who wasn't there then). California State meet, for one, didn't switch until 1975. Illinois switched in 1974. I guess California always has been a little slow to react... FYI, Greg Foster won the 300LH in '75 but was 2nd in '76. He won HH both years, a preview of his future forte. Ran a great anchor on the relay as well. Bruce Meyer KUKIMBIA Chicago
Re: t-and-f: 400H
In a message dated Fri, 12 Jan 2001 4:49:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << > The old-fart contingent still remembers well when the tradition (for maaannny years) was to run the 180y lows! Try explaining that one to somebody from another country! (or to somebody now who wasn't there then). California State meet, for one, didn't switch until 1975. gh
RE: t-and-f: 400H
Watch the average HS boy or girl struggle over the last 50-100m of a 300H race and then imagine them in that same state ... but still with 100m of hurdles to jump and you'll know why few States have made the switch. It is the same reason why most HS steeplechases are 2000m and we still run the 3200m instead of the 5000m. The rhythm required to make it over the hurdles at something resembling a sprint is just too demanding for 55-70 seconds for most HS'ers ... the big, strong, great hurdlers, YES. The average boy or girl ... NO. There would be a lot of last hurdle collapses. -Original Message- From: Eckmann, Drew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:39 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: t-and-f: 400H Can anyone tell me what other states besides NJ, NJ, Conn. compete in the 400H instead of the 300H at their state cjampionships? It just dawned on me, but over the years, while there's been way too much squawking over the mile/1500,1600 and 2 mile 3000,3200. The issue of an exact amount of laps can at least be argued for. Why hasn't there been any discussion over 300 vs. 400 meter hurdles? What on Earth is the rationale? Unless most states are training their athletes for that one meet in England that has a 300m hurdle race every year. /Drew
Re: t-and-f: 400H
Drew, if I was to guess squawk factor has been relatively low because the HS tradition was to run 300m or 330y before that. In the case of the mile moving to 1500 or 1600 there was actually a change from the traditional distance in a particularly traditional event like the mile. As for why the shorter distance was originally run it is probably for "protection" of the athlete reasons - the feeling that a HSer couldn't go the full distance. Steve S.
Re: t-and-f: 400H start lists
Lanes in rounds after the first are decided on the basis of time only. The top four times get the best four lanes, randomly, and the rest get the other lanes, randomly. -- >From: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Track list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: t-and-f: 400H start lists >Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000, 12:02 PM > >For the final it lists Taylor as starting in lane 1. How is this possible >when he finished 2nd in his semifinal heat? > >Time to pull a John Aki-Bua... > >Paul > > >*** >Paul Talbot >Department of Geography/ >Institute of Behavioral Science >University of Colorado, Boulder >Boulder CO 80309-0260 >(303) 492-3248 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Re: t-and-f: 400H start lists
There were 3 semi-final races in the 400 Hurdles, not two. The 3 winners, plus the fastest second place finisher, were assigned lanes 3-4-5-6 for the final. Jim Bendat >From: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Track list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: t-and-f: 400H start lists >Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:02:51 -0600 (MDT) > >For the final it lists Taylor as starting in lane 1. How is this possible >when he finished 2nd in his semifinal heat? > >Time to pull a John Aki-Bua... > >Paul > > >*** >Paul Talbot >Department of Geography/ >Institute of Behavioral Science >University of Colorado, Boulder >Boulder CO 80309-0260 >(303) 492-3248 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
