Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Tom - and others - are right about how active we were in the good old
days (yeah, I think they were), but it was far more than cowboys and
Indians. After all, we outgrew that stuff by 3rd grade (well, some of
us). But from then on it was any and every sport - whatever was in
season - none of it parent organized. Touch football, basketball, baseball
(not Little League - just a bunch of guys). And also, for city/urban kids
there were punch ball (at least in Brooklyn), stick ball, handball, etc. By
high school I had never trained at all, but I was fit from all the sports -
and from running or riding my one speed bike to the high school (on Long
Is.) to look for a game.
One Saturday in May of my sophomore year, I went up there but there was
no game going (very rare). So... I ran 60 laps of the track - about 13 2/3
miles since it was a 400 yard track (cinder, of course) shortened to expand
school bus parking. While I'd run Cross Country for 2 years, I wasn't in
Track since the longest distance was the mile and I had little speed. And no
one trained out of season then. Certainly my coaches didn't encourage it and
there were no running magazines. I wore my usual t-shirt, blue jeans and
high top sneakers. I stopped at 60 because it was boring and 60 was a nice
round number. 100 would have been nicer, but that would have been too
boring. Drank a quart of chocolate milk from a store and walked home. No big
deal. In 32 years of coaching high school kids ('67-'99) I don't think I
had a single kid who had that sort of natural background. It may not have
been a Kenyan-running-umpteen-miles-to-school-at-6,000', but it was pretty
good.
Geoff Pietsch
From: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:50:39 -0400
What few kids do now in the USA is incorporate moving over the ground as
part of childhood play. Long before I thought of running on a team in a
competition I ran around for transportation, back in my 1950s childhood, in
my dungarees and US keds. Running was part of play, whether a cowboy or an
indian.Our horses were painted sticks with shoe laces for reins. Then
freshman year of HS running the 2.5 mile cross-country course on the first
day did not seem to be unusual for me or any of us.
Tom Derderian, still playing cowboys and indians
- Original Message -
From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Mike Contopoulos says:
There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running
at
an
early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early
age.
Because distance running IS NOT any other sport. Last time I checked
it
was more stressful than golf and baseball, the examples you gave.
And yes, kiddies play tennis at age 6, the classes I watch look like
romper room on a big, green court. It DOES NOT resemble the tough
training
and practice required when they are more physically ready, and much
older
than 6.
Look over the lists of American men and women who actually made it to
World-class in the Steeple/5k/10k ... XC or marathon. You will find a
lot
of guys who WERE NOT EVEN HS STUDS. You will not find many age-group
prodigies. I can think of only TWO age-group stars who made it that far
...
and they both were women who ran the 800m in HS.
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Yes, after cowboys and indians came middle school age football. My parents might give me a ride to saturday practice or a game but they would never come the 2 miles to hang around and pick me up so I and all the other guys walked home wearing our football stuff and carrying the helmet. (I didn't think to call them on my cell phone) All over town kids walked places. That was what kids did. When you got bored of walking, you ran. When you got tired, you walked. There was nothing to be afraid of. Tom - Original Message - From: Geoff Pietsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Tom - and others - are right about how active we were in the good old days (yeah, I think they were), but it was far more than cowboys and Indians. After all, we outgrew that stuff by 3rd grade (well, some of us). But from then on it was any and every sport - whatever was in season - none of it parent organized. Touch football, basketball, baseball
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Geez, is there anything nowadays to be all that afraid of? In my town the only thing you have to be scared of are cars... but I imagine that was the same 15, 25, or 35 years ago. M From: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:06:10 -0400 Yes, after cowboys and indians came middle school age football. My parents might give me a ride to saturday practice or a game but they would never come the 2 miles to hang around and pick me up so I and all the other guys walked home wearing our football stuff and carrying the helmet. (I didn't think to call them on my cell phone) All over town kids walked places. That was what kids did. When you got bored of walking, you ran. When you got tired, you walked. There was nothing to be afraid of. Tom - Original Message - From: Geoff Pietsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Tom - and others - are right about how active we were in the good old days (yeah, I think they were), but it was far more than cowboys and Indians. After all, we outgrew that stuff by 3rd grade (well, some of us). But from then on it was any and every sport - whatever was in season - none of it parent organized. Touch football, basketball, baseball _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
No more really except the volume of automobile traffic and the perception from the TV news that the world is dangerous, especially for children. Even my mother who allowed me unlimited geographical range when I was a child cautions me about her grandchildren, Lotta crazy people in this world... I figure she reads the backs of too many milk cartons. But I think this kind of fearfulness, fear of risk, hurts track and field. Tom - Original Message - From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:37 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Geez, is there anything nowadays to be all that afraid of? In my town the only thing you have to be scared of are cars... but I imagine that was the same 15, 25, or 35 years ago. M From: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:06:10 -0400 Yes, after cowboys and indians came middle school age football. My parents might give me a ride to saturday practice or a game but they would never come the 2 miles to hang around and pick me up so I and all the other guys walked home wearing our football stuff and carrying the helmet. (I didn't think to call them on my cell phone) All over town kids walked places. That was what kids did. When you got bored of walking, you ran. When you got tired, you walked. There was nothing to be afraid of. Tom - Original Message - From: Geoff Pietsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Tom - and others - are right about how active we were in the good old days (yeah, I think they were), but it was far more than cowboys and Indians. After all, we outgrew that stuff by 3rd grade (well, some of us). But from then on it was any and every sport - whatever was in season - none of it parent organized. Touch football, basketball, baseball _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Mike Contopoulos says: There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running at an early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early age. Because distance running IS NOT any other sport. Last time I checked it was more stressful than golf and baseball, the examples you gave. And yes, kiddies play tennis at age 6, the classes I watch look like romper room on a big, green court. It DOES NOT resemble the tough training and practice required when they are more physically ready, and much older than 6. Look over the lists of American men and women who actually made it to World-class in the Steeple/5k/10k ... XC or marathon. You will find a lot of guys who WERE NOT EVEN HS STUDS. You will not find many age-group prodigies. I can think of only TWO age-group stars who made it that far ... and they both were women who ran the 800m in HS.
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
What few kids do now in the USA is incorporate moving over the ground as part of childhood play. Long before I thought of running on a team in a competition I ran around for transportation, back in my 1950s childhood, in my dungarees and US keds. Running was part of play, whether a cowboy or an indian.Our horses were painted sticks with shoe laces for reins. Then freshman year of HS running the 2.5 mile cross-country course on the first day did not seem to be unusual for me or any of us. Tom Derderian, still playing cowboys and indians - Original Message - From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: RE: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Mike Contopoulos says: There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running at an early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early age. Because distance running IS NOT any other sport. Last time I checked it was more stressful than golf and baseball, the examples you gave. And yes, kiddies play tennis at age 6, the classes I watch look like romper room on a big, green court. It DOES NOT resemble the tough training and practice required when they are more physically ready, and much older than 6. Look over the lists of American men and women who actually made it to World-class in the Steeple/5k/10k ... XC or marathon. You will find a lot of guys who WERE NOT EVEN HS STUDS. You will not find many age-group prodigies. I can think of only TWO age-group stars who made it that far ... and they both were women who ran the 800m in HS.
t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
on 4/9/01 16:50, Tom Derderian at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our horses were painted sticks with shoe laces for reins. You were lucky. We played cops and robbers with just fingers for guns. (with apologies to Monty Python) Randall Northam
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
What few kids do now in the USA is incorporate moving over the ground as part of childhood play. Long before I thought of running on a team in a competition I ran around for transportation, back in my 1950s childhood, in my dungarees and US keds. Running was part of play This is partly the more protective parent of today's doing. My kids routinely play games involving running which has them stretching the 'comfort zone' for my wife. We often 'discuss' where the boundaries should be and I find that my boundaries as a child were definitely more expansive than many parents would like them to be today. My feelings are that there are not any more dangerous people, animals or situations than I grew up with in todays world. We just here about them more on the TV, in the paper or on the web. So we end up with play dates and never letting the kids out of sight.
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is partly the more protective parent of today's doing. My kids routinely play games involving running which has them stretching the 'comfort zone' for my wife. We often 'discuss' where the boundaries should be and I find that my boundaries as a child were definitely more expansive than many parents would like them to be today. My feelings are that there are not any more dangerous people, animals or situations than I grew up with in todays world. We just here about them more on the TV, in the paper or on the web. So we end up with play dates and never letting the kids out of sight. Sociologists have found that the desire to protect children has increased greatly in the US over the last 20 years. Furthermore, such things are cyclical and will probably change in the future as it is thought to relate to children's relationships to their parents. There is, of course, no data showing children are at greater risk today. For example, school shootings have been steadily DECREASING over the last 20 years, we just hear about them more. In 1970 if a kid told his or her parents, I'm going to run 100 mile weeks all summer so I can be all-county this fall in cross country. Most parents would have though, Great! My kid wants to work hard at something!. I think today many parents would start to think, Oh that's too much! You should broaden your interests, not focus on one thing!; What if you get hurt?; What will happen if you put in all that work and fail? What would your reaction be to your own child (not as a coach or knowledgable runner, but as a parent)? What would most parents be today?
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
What would your reaction be to your own child (not as a coach or knowledgable runner, but as a parent)? What would most parents be today? Today's parents are also always right with the kids of all ages in many sports all the time. Thus you have 5 hour trips to soccer matches - something unheard of in my day (70's). My parent's always seemed impressed by the miles I ran and never questioned our training even though during xc season we had to run through a rough neighborhood to get to the park we trained in. I also always travelled to meets by myself from age 13. I don't even know if I'd let my own kid travel like that these days. Perception is very strange. Steve S.
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
In a message dated Fri, 31 Aug 2001 3:09:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you believe in training at or just below your latcic threshold for the majority of your runs, there is no reason to ever be puking post workout. Next time somebody asks me why we went 30 years between HS sub-4:00 milers I'll cite this line of thinking. gh ps--who said anything about puking POST workout? Unless you'ree from the wussy school of training you puke DURING your workout.
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
GH wrote: Next time somebody asks me why we went 30 years between HS sub-4:00 milers I'll cite this line of thinking. gh ps--who said anything about puking POST workout? Unless you'ree from the wussy school of training you puke DURING your workout. I remember a workout one day back in high school where everyone was doing speed work -sprinters, hurdlers, distance runners, jumpers .. Seemed like at any one given moment half the team was kneeling beside the track giving up a portion of their lunch !! Coach remarked that it looked like we were starting a new religion with everyone praying on the side of the track and giving an offering to the gods of track ! Puking used to be a sign that you were giving it everything you had ... And then some !!! Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Puking ( Was: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods)
My $0.02 on the pukinghard work issue. In high school I puked after every interval workout and *every* race. In college I found that the times when I got about about 40 miles a week (which actually wasn't that often) I *never* puked after a race or interval. The difference was that I could recover faster. Puking isn't a function of working hard, most of the time it's a function of being out of shape. Paul On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Conway wrote: GH wrote: Next time somebody asks me why we went 30 years between HS sub-4:00 milers I'll cite this line of thinking. gh ps--who said anything about puking POST workout? Unless you'ree from the wussy school of training you puke DURING your workout. I remember a workout one day back in high school where everyone was doing speed work -sprinters, hurdlers, distance runners, jumpers .. Seemed like at any one given moment half the team was kneeling beside the track giving up a portion of their lunch !! Coach remarked that it looked like we were starting a new religion with everyone praying on the side of the track and giving an offering to the gods of track ! Puking used to be a sign that you were giving it everything you had ... And then some !!! Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
On Sun, 02 Sep 2001 11:32:23 EDT, GH wrote: ps--who said anything about puking POST workout? Unless you'ree from the wussy school of training you puke DURING your workout. My son puked this year 15 meters before the finish line of his anchor leg for a 4x400 relay! (admittedly, he said he didn't feel that well beforehand- had run the 110H and 400H earlier...) He finished second and succeeded in slowing down pursuers who were dogging his heels in the final straightaway :-) His barf while in full sprint was a work of art... ...anybody know if puking during a race is grounds for an interference DQ?... ...it probably didn't help that after the 400IH he chugalugged a gallon or two of cold gatorade... You'd think it would have embarassed him, but he was bragging about his 'race tactics' to teammates afterward ...don't think he learned it from his old man- I reserved my best puking sessions for off-season track interval workouts, like when returning to school after a summer of nothing but grind-it-out long road work sessions by myself.. ...one other puke of note- when I was racing 800 we had a dual against U of Florida at Gainesville- and the Gators had an ace Kenyan 800m runner...(this was about the same time that lister Byron Dyce was doing his thing for the Fla.Track Club) As we were toeing the waterfall starting arc, he waved a hand to the starter who told everybody to 'stand up', and the Kenyan dude walked over to the infield grass and proceeded to gag himself with his index finger till he puked, then calmly stepped back on the track, they fired the gun, and he came up from 4th in the last straightaway to win in 1:49. Does Brother O'Connell teach this at his school in Kenya? :-) P.S.- didn't Khannouchi barf during the marathon in Edmonton last month, before dropping out? RT
Re: Puking ( Was: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods)
Paul Talbot writes: In college I found that the times when I got about about 40 miles a week (which actually wasn't that often) I *never* puked after a race or interval. The difference was that I could recover faster. Puking isn't a function of working hard, most of the time it's a function of being out of shape. Also, it seems to me reactions during and post-hard workouts or races are just different from one person to the next. I never puked, however I did almost black out a couple of times. I can remember one cross-country race in high school, kicking down the last 150 meters neck and neck with another guy, and pushing so hard that spots started appearing in my vision like I was going to faint. (In other unrelated contexts once or twice--attending school when I was sick and should have stayed home--I'd gotten woozy and fainted a couple of times and lost consciousness, so I know what the immediately preceding symptoms are like.) This was when I was in excellent shape, too, for me. Never came even close to puking, though. --Ward Nicholson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Throw up stories. Bob Kempainen threw up at about the 22 mile mark of the men's marathon trials in Charlotte in '96. It was live on TV. He immediately picked up the pace and ran away from his pursuers. I coached an 8th grade boy some years ago who threw up every time he pr'd. He improved from 5:00+ to 4:35 that season. He went on to captain the Furman University team. An 8th grade girl threw up on my feet after she had run 5:08 for second place in the HS state meet. She went on to run 4:43 indoors last year for Clemson. I may get excited the next time one of my kids throws up after a race. Ed Prytherch
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Yeah, tell me about it, our school had a really lousy cafeteria too. Tom Derderian I remember a workout one day back in high school where everyone was doing speed work -sprinters, hurdlers, distance runners, jumpers .. Seemed like at any one given moment half the team was kneeling beside the track giving up a portion of their lunch !!
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Netters Michael Contopoulos writes: American's start running too late. We need to get our kids out there and running at 6 years old. You wouldn't think twice shoving your kid off to soccer practice, giving him tennis lessons, or signing him up for little league... Yes, I would think twice about sending my children out. There are a lot of things that we can do here to improve athletics but special training at age 6 is not one of them
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I ask you why? Once again, age group swimming is widely popular. You see tennis players begin and even go on the tour at age 14 or 15 (Sampras beat Lendl in the US Open at 19... Capriatti had to be 15 when she was first became a stud, etc). No one thinks twice about sending their kid out to play pee wee baseball. No one thinks twice about dragging their son along on the golf course, in the dead of summer, for 5 hours and 18 holes. Your attitude, in my opinion, is why we are no longer good distance runners. There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running at an early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early age. M From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:51:41 GMT Netters Michael Contopoulos writes: American's start running too late. We need to get our kids out there and running at 6 years old. You wouldn't think twice shoving your kid off to soccer practice, giving him tennis lessons, or signing him up for little league... Yes, I would think twice about sending my children out. There are a lot of things that we can do here to improve athletics but special training at age 6 is not one of them _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Michael Contopoulos writes: I ask you why? Because the injury rates are higher and the risk of never being able to compete later is higher and because the succsess rate is so low. To be clear for every one kid that is good at 15 there are thousands who lie in a waste land of burnout and injury. In general the very best athletes in any sport participate in a variety ot sports usually focusing on one in their early to middle teens progressing to higher levels into their mid to late 20s. Once again, age group swimming is widely popular. So is Brittnay spears, that doesn't make her actually good. You see tennis players begin and even go on the tour at age 14 or 15 Mostly Females their. No one thinks twice about sending their kid out to play pee wee baseball. No one thinks twice about dragging their son along on the golf course, in the dead of summer, for 5 hours and 18 holes. Michael, I don't know if you have kids or not but all parents think twice about these type of things. Your attitude, in my opinion, is why we are no longer good distance runners. My opinion about children doing sports at a young age has little to do with the quality of distance runners in the U.S. This is a complicated issue and yours and Kebas simplified ideas of runnig more at a younger age and raising expectations gloss over really important issues of genetics, training, quality of lfe and much much more. There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running at an early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early age. My son in fact runs every day. Sometimes we play soccor, somtimes he runs at the track while I do my training, somtimes he long jumps, sometimes he runs with is cousins, playing some kind of army game and sometimes he plays with his dog SPot. Not that much different then most Kenyan boys of age 8 except maybe the name of the dog. Mike
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I ask you why? Once again, age group swimming is widely popular. You see tennis players begin and even go on the tour at age 14 or 15 (Sampras beat Lendl in the US Open at 19... Capriatti had to be 15 when she was first became a stud, etc). No one thinks twice about sending their kid out to play pee wee baseball. No one thinks twice about dragging their son along on the golf course, in the dead of summer, for 5 hours and 18 holes. Your original example was age 6. Loads of people think twice about their kid playing 18 holes or going through the child abuse that is the tennis system. Capriatti is just coming back after what, 7 years away from the tour due to burnout (whatever she calls it)? However, that doesn't mean I don't agree with your point that kids can and should be running as young as they want to. The question is what form does that take and how much pressure should be put on them. Going to the local all-comers meet and encouraging them to run a kids-only 100yd dash or mile seems great. Having a parent-child run seems like no problem, either. The problem is when is becomes serious at age 6. I can't cite psychological proof but it seems self-evident to me. Physiologically, I have little doubt that kids have no problem doing distance runs - you only have to look at the Kenyans. But the added element of parental competitive pressure can contribute to both physiological and physchological damage. Again, I've seens various evidence to support both sides of this argument, but I have to go with what I've seen with my two eyes. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
No, I don't have kids. And when I do, I'm not going to make him go out and run 60 miles a week at 10 years old. What I will do, however, is invite him out for runs with his old man. Maybe invite he and his friends along too... then they can do it together if they like it. I will let my son (God willing I have one someday) decide if he likes it enough to want to really train and progress. I will surround him not only with sports such as tennis and baseball and soccer, but track and field. Our trips to see sporting events will not solely be to Mets and Jets games or the US Open, but also to the USATF championships, Pre Classic, etc. Hopefully, in this manner, he will take interest in running and want to excel... and at that point, I will guide him along. You said, My son in fact runs every day. Sometimes we play soccor, somtimes he runsat the track while I do my training, somtimes he long jumps, sometimes he runs with is cousins, playing some kind of army game and sometimes he plays with his dog SPot. Not that much different then most Kenyan boys of age 8 except maybe the name of the dog. Your son is more active than most kids in the US these days. I have one question... does he understand track and field as a sport? Or does he see it as excercise or something one does as conditioning for other sports? I hope he knows the value of track and field as its own sports entity. As for my beliefs about why we are not competing well at an international level, they run deep. I feel we don't start early enough. I feel we don't train hard enough. I feel we race too much. I think most coaches in the US are aweful. I think our minds have been tainted by phony juniors running 13:00 and 7:58 steeples and we are psyched out. I believe we do not have the genetics that perhaps Eastern and Northern Africans have, but I also feel that where maybe 80 out of 100 of those Africans have the ability to be international superstars, maybe 40 out of 100 American's have the ability. Given these ratios and the fact that only 3 compete in the OG and given the US's size compared to all of East and North Africa, we should be competitive at the top end. There are many reasons, from altitude, to social circumstances, from feelings of necessity to support a family through running that contribute to the African's superiority in distance running. All those factors, though, can be overcome... and in my opinion, it all starts with a proper training schedule from a young age. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Ed... what I see with my own two eyes is sometimes burn out, sometimes great success. I feel as though we have to stop trying and make the masses happy. We are not here to coddle people into liking our sport. IT WILL NEVER BE ONE OF THE TOP RESPECTED SPORTS IN THIS COUNTRY. Its OK to burn out. Its OK for people to walk away from the sport. You have to break a few eggs to make an ommelette you know. I am being serious here. I would rather have 50 out of 100 kids burn out and turn there interest elsewhere and have 1 Olympic Champ than have 100 kids all be between 13:30-18:00 5k runners. The key, however, and I think we agree here, is that I don't feel as though it is the parent's job to burn a kid out. It is my belief that a god parent, one who cares about his son's athletic potential, will simply lay out the options. He will show his son that running is not simply conditioning for another sport, that it is not something done just as exercise. Rather it is a sport in and of itself. It is important that a father introduce their child to team sports like baseball and soccer as well as individual sports like tennis. It is also important to invite his son for a run and take them to track meets like you would take them to a Mets or Jets game. Once the interest is there, then you can outline a program for your son, and hopefully you have a good enough relationship with him that he will feel comfortable telling you what you have given him is either too much or too little. Hopefully you will make the sport enjoyable for him and not a job. I remember playing baseball, running sprints, lifting weights and doing drills, shagging flies for hours upon hours as a kid... every day. Hardly the most fun thing to do. If anything, my parents DISCOURAGED me from all the stuff I did to excel in sport. I did it anyway though because I loved the game. Same thing when I started running. This is because I was introduced to the sports the way I should have been. My choice was to be the best I could be. Did I get burned out? Yeah. I quit baseball late in high school to concentrate on a new obsession, track and field. But I BURNT MYSELF out... no one else burnt me out. My coaches gave me guidance and I ran with it. If burn out is to occur, that is how it should ocurr. I have no regrets. I actually wish I had gone out and run with my friend when I went and slept over his house as a kid and he would get up and run anywhere from 1-4 miles. I wish my parents knew more about track and field and had introduced it to me before I happened upon it in hs. Maybe I would be a professional athlete by now. Maybe I would be burned out. Either way, I'm sure I would have been happy. M From: Ed Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Ed Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 06:06:49 -0700 I ask you why? Once again, age group swimming is widely popular. You see tennis players begin and even go on the tour at age 14 or 15 (Sampras beat Lendl in the US Open at 19... Capriatti had to be 15 when she was first became a stud, etc). No one thinks twice about sending their kid out to play pee wee baseball. No one thinks twice about dragging their son along on the golf course, in the dead of summer, for 5 hours and 18 holes. Your original example was age 6. Loads of people think twice about their kid playing 18 holes or going through the child abuse that is the tennis system. Capriatti is just coming back after what, 7 years away from the tour due to burnout (whatever she calls it)? However, that doesn't mean I don't agree with your point that kids can and should be running as young as they want to. The question is what form does that take and how much pressure should be put on them. Going to the local all-comers meet and encouraging them to run a kids-only 100yd dash or mile seems great. Having a parent-child run seems like no problem, either. The problem is when is becomes serious at age 6. I can't cite psychological proof but it seems self-evident to me. Physiologically, I have little doubt that kids have no problem doing distance runs - you only have to look at the Kenyans. But the added element of parental competitive pressure can contribute to both physiological and physchological damage. Again, I've seens various evidence to support both sides of this argument, but I have to go with what I've seen with my two eyes. - Ed Parrot _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I ask you why? Once again, age group swimming is widely popular. You see tennis players begin and even go on the tour at age 14 or 15 (Sampras beat Lendl in the US Open at 19... Capriatti had to be 15 when she was first became a stud, etc). No one thinks twice about sending their kid out to play pee wee baseball. No one thinks twice about dragging their son along on the golf course, in the dead of summer, for 5 hours and 18 holes. OK, now here's a question back. What do tennis, baseball, and golf all have in common, that distance running lacks? A HUGE dependence on refined motor skills. Strength is important, conditioning is important, but both those factors are far behind hand-eye coordination and muscle memory. Thus, there is potentially a big windfall to be reaped from developing those skills early in life. Even swimming has a far, far greater reliance on technical expertise than running. A runner can succeed, and even prosper, with the awful form of a Zatopec, or a Pat Peterson. A swimmer can't - stroke dynamics and form make up a huge portion of the swimmers training. And the earlier you can start on that, the better chance that you'll be able to develop world class technique. You can certainly try to pursuade us that by starting in a structured running program early in life, that distance runners could improve their form. But I would agree with the arguements over burn-out and injuries counterbalancing that improvement. Obviously, if we could get hundreds of thousands of kids to join up in age-group running programs over soccer and basketball, we're going to have some successes. I'm just not sure if that would be because of the intrinsic value of early training, or because you'd have a lot more talent identified early in the process. Phil
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I do have kids, girls, 10 and 12. Last week we ran a x-c relay together 4x2.5 miles with Cynthia. We did the same thing last year. They took it seriously, especially the sprinting to the hand off at the end. A nice family thing and matching t-shirts. I did expect them to run faster than last year and of course the big joke is when the girls will run faster legs than their parents. I think their weekly mileage is less than 10. They really like running fast down rocky hills in the woods. The mostly like the food at the end. But the danger is not lack of training or overtraining but kids who do not even play by covering ground on their own two legs. My theory is that kids, especially girls do not even walk let alone run because of fear of crime and the convenience of cars and TV so they do not mineralize their bones and thus get far too many stress fracture when in High School they go out for cross-country. Kids must walk many miles a day 3-6 in the course of their playing long before they train for running. But I have to go now and give my daughter a ride into town... Tom No, I don't have kids. And when I do, I'm not going to make him go out and run 60 miles a week at 10 years old.
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
As a kid in the sixties, starting at about age 7 or so, I was always involved in some sport or physical activity, but most of the time with little adult imposed structure, including tennis, hockey, football, baseball, bicycling, and running. When my friends and I were a little older, we used to play this game, where one of us would be designated as the rabbit or fox, given a few minutes lead and the pack would try to catch him, running across fields, up and down hills. It was great, unstructured training for cross country/track... Bruce Goodchild Boston/Cambridge American's start running too late. We need to get our kids out there and running at 6 years old. You wouldn't think twice shoving your kid off to soccer practice, giving him tennis lessons, or signing him up for little league... Yes, I would think twice about sending my children out. There are a lot of things that we can do here to improve athletics but special training at age 6 is not one of them
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I think our minds have been tainted by phony juniors running 13:00 and 7:58 steeples and we are psyched out. Who's getting psyched out? Certainly not our juniors who for the most part unaware of what Kenyan athletes are doing. Pick a random HS cross team and ask them what the WJR's are and you'll probably have one or two kids who are really interested in the sport give you some sort of answer. The rest aren't all that interested in the sport beyond their own self, school, league, etc. Steve S.
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
shagging flies for hours upon hours as a kid... every day. Hardly the most fun thing to do. Say what? I still go out and shag flies occasionally for enjoyment. As a matter of fact this is how I discovered as a kid that I liked to run. I hoped whoever was hitting would hit the ball as far away from me as possible so I could run it down. Cross marketing I guess. Steve S.
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I can only go by personal experience. I can honestly say that by the time I was a junior in high school, I knew all the world records, junior world records, etc. With the presence of the internet, I would bet that the best kids on most teams know what is going on internationally. Maybe not the ones who are running 21 minutes for 5k, but if you were to take the top 25 at a state meet and ask them what International Juniors are doing, I think they would know that the Kenyan kids are nearly as good as their seniors. If not, we're not educating our athletes well enough. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:17:30 EDT I think our minds have been tainted by phony juniors running 13:00 and 7:58 steeples and we are psyched out. Who's getting psyched out? Certainly not our juniors who for the most part unaware of what Kenyan athletes are doing. Pick a random HS cross team and ask them what the WJR's are and you'll probably have one or two kids who are really interested in the sport give you some sort of answer. The rest aren't all that interested in the sport beyond their own self, school, league, etc. Steve S. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Michael Contopoulos wrote: Yes, I would think twice about sending my children out. There are a lot of things that we can do here to improve athletics but special training at age 6 is not one of them I ask you why? Once again, age group swimming is widely popular. You see tennis players begin and even go on the tour at age 14 or 15 (Sampras beat Lendl in the US Open at 19... Capriatti had to be 15 when she was first became a stud, etc). No one thinks twice about sending their kid out to play pee wee baseball. No one thinks twice about dragging their son along on the golf course, in the dead of summer, for 5 hours and 18 holes. Your attitude, in my opinion, is why we are no longer good distance runners. There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running at an early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early age. How about what the kid wants to do? What a concept! Cheers, Alan Shank
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Michael Contopoulos wrote: I can only go by personal experience. I can honestly say that by the time I was a junior in high school, I knew all the world records, junior world records, etc. With the presence of the internet, I would bet that the best kids on most teams know what is going on internationally. I would bet the majority of D-I college runners do not. They know the big names and the WRs in most events, but that's about it. I would guess less than 5% of collegiate runners could name 3 WJRs. This was true of the team I was on, and was true when I was working with collegiate athletes a few years ago. Like high school, few plan on running after college and they care primarily about where they rank in the conference. I'm sure there's great variation, but I don't think most college runners follow the sport as close as people on this list, and many do not follow it at all. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
If that is the case, I reiterate, we are doing a terrible job educating our youth then! IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT OUR ATHLETES KNOW HOW THE REST OF THE WORLD IS DOING! If they do not, they continue believing the times run by the class before them were good when they are in fact becoming more and more mediocre! I agree, I doubt many know 3 WJR... but I'd guarantee that more than you seem to think know that people break 13 in the 5k and 27 in the 10k. I'm sure more than you think know that there are people out there who run sub 3:30 and sub 1:44. Thanks to sites like Letsrun.com and the late (RIP) tnfmedia, how couldn't people know? I say again, if they don't, well, that's just one more factor as to why our country has fallen behind, and just one more thing we have to work on. M From: P.F.Talbot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:02:39 -0600 (MDT) On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Michael Contopoulos wrote: I can only go by personal experience. I can honestly say that by the time I was a junior in high school, I knew all the world records, junior world records, etc. With the presence of the internet, I would bet that the best kids on most teams know what is going on internationally. I would bet the majority of D-I college runners do not. They know the big names and the WRs in most events, but that's about it. I would guess less than 5% of collegiate runners could name 3 WJRs. This was true of the team I was on, and was true when I was working with collegiate athletes a few years ago. Like high school, few plan on running after college and they care primarily about where they rank in the conference. I'm sure there's great variation, but I don't think most college runners follow the sport as close as people on this list, and many do not follow it at all. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I can only go by personal experience. I can honestly say that by the time I was a junior in high school, I knew all the world records, junior world records, etc. With the presence of the internet, I would bet that the best kids on most teams know what is going on internationally. When I was in HS elite distance running was much more popular to the general public than it is now. It was in the era of Pre, Shorter et al and there was only one kid on my team who knew much about the sport other than what was recently witnessed at the Olympics and that kid was me. In college it was even a more pronounced lack of awareness of the sport on the elite level. From recent experience speaking with HS and college athletes of today I was say for the most part this still remains the norm. The occasional kid is interested in the elite part of the sport and the rest are only concerned with there immediate personal and conference or league performance. Steve S.
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I'm sure more than you think know that there are people out there who run sub 3:30 and sub 1:44. Thanks to sites like Letsrun.com and the late (RIP) tnfmedia, how couldn't people know? I say again, if they don't, well, that's just one more factor as to why our country has fallen behind, and just one more thing we have to work on. The amount of visitors any of those sites have is miniscule compared the the population of kids in HS and college athletics. It's a problem as far as the sports popularity is concerned and probably is a factor in why distance running has not improved in the US in 15 years. Steve S
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Because the injury rates are higher and the risk of never being able to compete later is higher and because the succsess rate is so low. To be clear for every one kid that is good at 15 there are thousands who lie in a waste land of burnout and injury. That is precisely the reason why Kenya has so many good runners because they have thousands more who burnout or get injuried. At a young age they train, train, train and those who make it go on to greatness and those who don't lay burned out or injuried on the sidelines or even worse...become a part of the US collegiate system (GASP!). Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
I can think of many young kids who run competitively in road races during elementary and middle school age. Problem with most is that they lose interest, they burnout so to speak. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:28:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [66.108.28.195] Received: from [128.223.142.13] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBD58338000844136E82380DF8E0DC3E20; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:30:02 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost)by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f7V1SM416751for t-and-f-outgoing; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f157.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.19.157])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f7V1SK816663for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:28:15 -0700 Received: from 66.108.28.195 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:28:15 GMT From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:31:06 -0700 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2001 01:28:15.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[350A3A80:01C131BC] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk What do Tiger Woods, Andre Agassi, Mickey Mantle, and Haile Gebreselassie all have in common? They all were/are the best in their sport. They all started their discipline from basically the time they could walk. American's start running too late. We need to get our kids out there and running at 6 years old. You wouldn't think twice shoving your kid off to soccer practice, giving him tennis lessons, or signing him up for little league... but to have him go out and run 3 miles is considered cruel and unusual punishment. I guarantee if we started our kids on a developmental program from the time they were 6, we would have the best distance runners in the world. And I don't mean developmental as bringing them up to 40 miles a week by the time they are 18... I mean building a solid base and developing natural speed in the same way we handle 14 and 15 year olds until they are 26 or 27. The only examples I can think of are my best friend from high school who was a 1:53 800 runner and started very young (11ish), the Torres twins who began running at an extremely young age and I believe the Hausers did too. M _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Alan, I yet to see why this is bad. They may have 1000s that burn out or get injured, but they have the best top end runners also... as well as being the deepest country in the world. Give me 1000 quality runners and I would rather have 10 guys who can compete with anyone in the world and 9990 that are broken, never make it, burnt, don't pan out, etc than have 1000 quality runners who all run between 13:30-18:00. M That is precisely the reason why Kenya has so many good runners because they have thousands more who burnout or get injuried. At a young age they train, train, train and those who make it go on to greatness and those who don't lay burned out or injuried on the sidelines or even worse...become a part of the US collegiate system (GASP!). Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Never said it was bad. The reason why Kenya is so dominant is BECAUSE they have thousands burn out. I'm all for young kids running hard at a young age, but only if they want to. I know many young kids who join local running clubs in their youth. If in order to have 10 medal-caliber runners we must burn out 1000 then so be it. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 Alan, I yet to see why this is bad That is precisely the reason why Kenya has so many good runners because they have thousands more who burnout or get injuried. At a young age they train, train, train and those who make it go on to greatness and those who don't lay burned out or injuried on the sidelines or even worse...become a part of the US collegiate system (GASP!). Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
In a message dated Fri, 31 Aug 2001 8:04:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running at an early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early age. The key word there is play. You don't play at running, you WORK at it. You can become very proficient at most of the ball sports without having to even sweat too much. To become proficient at running you need to have ongoing barf sessions. Not exactly what the average kid is looking for for entertainment. gh
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Michael wrote: Alan, I yet to see why this is bad. They may have 1000s that burn out or get injured, but they have the best top end runners also... as well as being the deepest country in the world. Give me 1000 quality runners and I would rather have 10 guys who can compete with anyone in the world and 9990 that are broken, never make it, burnt, don't pan out, etc than have 1000 quality runners who all run between 13:30-18:00. Yep. Sucks to live in a democracy. Phil
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
GH, Have you ever played any other sports? Do you know how much dedication and HARD WORK goes into being a good soccer player or tennis player? I remember running lines in tennis for an hour once and I puked. I remember soccer coaches making us do windsprints for 30 minutes, have a 2 hour practice, then finish up with 30 minutes of wind sprints again. That's not work? As Malmo said earlier, distance running is one of the few sports where you can get by with 2 hours or less of practice a day. Running, I feel, is a pretty easy sport done correctly. If you believe in training at or just below your latcic threshold for the majority of your runs, there is no reason to ever be puking post workout. M From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:58:04 EDT In a message dated Fri, 31 Aug 2001 8:04:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running at an early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early age. The key word there is play. You don't play at running, you WORK at it. You can become very proficient at most of the ball sports without having to even sweat too much. To become proficient at running you need to have ongoing barf sessions. Not exactly what the average kid is looking for for entertainment. gh _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
To become proficient at running you need to have ongoing barf sessions. Not exactly what the average kid is looking for for entertainment. gh If you are barfing you are not doing it right. malmo
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
First thing that popped into my mind after this thread began is Alan Webb. He would currently seem to be our prime successful example of one who started at an early age and trained hard who's now head and shoulders above most others in the U.S. in terms of his development. However, a key point is his early start was in swimming where the risk of injury is low compared to running, only switching to track in his mid-teens if I remember correctly. --Ward Nicholson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Thank you Malmo... I addressed this already :-) Mike From: malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods, Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:47:42 EST To become proficient at running you need to have ongoing barf sessions. Not exactly what the average kid is looking for for entertainment. gh If you are barfing you are not doing it right. malmo _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
alan tobin writes: That is precisely the reason why Kenya has so many good runners because they have thousands more who burnout or get injuried. At a young age they train, train, train and those who make it go on to greatness and those who don't lay burned out or injuried on the sidelines or even worse...become a part of the US collegiate system (GASP!). Ignoring the fact that there are not really thousands of Kenyan kids training. I have to say that i am not, nor ever will be, a proponet of the next please coaching philosphy. Michael Rohl Asst. Coach Sprints Jumps Mansfield University/
t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
What do Tiger Woods, Andre Agassi, Mickey Mantle, and Haile Gebreselassie all have in common? They all were/are the best in their sport. They all started their discipline from basically the time they could walk. American's start running too late. We need to get our kids out there and running at 6 years old. You wouldn't think twice shoving your kid off to soccer practice, giving him tennis lessons, or signing him up for little league... but to have him go out and run 3 miles is considered cruel and unusual punishment. I guarantee if we started our kids on a developmental program from the time they were 6, we would have the best distance runners in the world. And I don't mean developmental as bringing them up to 40 miles a week by the time they are 18... I mean building a solid base and developing natural speed in the same way we handle 14 and 15 year olds until they are 26 or 27. The only examples I can think of are my best friend from high school who was a 1:53 800 runner and started very young (11ish), the Torres twins who began running at an extremely young age and I believe the Hausers did too. M _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
