RE: t-and-f: supplements, diet and soil
Hello to all... As a soil scientist that has done research on organic production systems, I need to make a few quick comments about this soil quality/nutritional quality thread. First let me mention that my e-mail account was dead for much of the last 4 days so I probably missed some of the pertinent posts. I do not dispute Mike Rohl's comment that very few agricultural soils are deficient in macronutrients. In fact, many agricultural soils have been over fertilized to the point that crops would be unlikely to suffer without P and K additions for many decades. Micronutrients are a more complicated story. While relatively few soils are so deficient in micronutrients that yield is affected, this does not mean that crop disease resistance, attractiveness to pests, flavor or nutritional quality are not being affected. The key concept withregards to soil quality is ***not*** soil mineral content. Healthy soils contain much greater complexity of environmental conditions than any other ecosystem and correspondingly provide habit for greater biodiversity than any other ecosystem. The integrity of the trophic linkages within soil ecological communities aka the soil food web is the key concept withregard to understanding soil quality. There are lots of peer reviewed scientific articles which indicate that soil quality ***does*** impact crop quality. Write to me privately if you want some literature citations. Organic agriculture is *** not*** a monolithic entity. Organic agriculture is defined legally primarly by inputs that are prohibited. Many organic farmers use soil management practices that promote good soil quality and crop nutritional quality... some do not the same is true for conventional farmers. Mike's list (which follows this paragraph) is poignant... it is a poignant example of the very antiquated "organic by neglect" perspective that was common among univeristy agronomists over 20 years ago today research on organic agriculture occurs at every land grant university and the results are published in the major peer reviewed agricultural science journals. The best examples of modern organic agriculture are complex science based systems that are more socially just, environmentally sound and economically viable than conventional agriculture. > Organic salt is NaCl with fish poop in it. > Honey is C6H12O6 with bee spit added. > Oraganic vegetables are vegetable with extra protein in them (dead bugs) >and extra fiber (cow poop.) > Organic milk is milk that goes bad and or has mastitis bacteria in it. > Organic vegetable cost more because the waste to insects/predation drive >cost up due to waste. > My 2 cents, Joel Joel Gruver Farm Manager Center for Environmental Farming Systems 201 Stevens Mill Rd. Goldsboro, NC 27530 (919) 731 3270 [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
RE: t-and-f: supplements, diet and soil
Well said michael, A few added points, even the fish oil can be got naturally by eating Mackerel, herring or other "oily" fish. Potassium can be got in abundance in your diet if you choose the right foods. My experience is that if some thought is put into your diet you can have all the nutrients you need and (as importantly) have really interesting, tasty and healthy meals. As for organic milk going bad or having mastitus: In europe at least organic means that no manufactured chemicals are put on the land, or fed to the cattle. Pasteurisation is totally consistent with the EU definition of organic, in fact it is required. As to whether people think that organic foods are more nutritius than non-organic foods, I don't think they do, I think they use organic because 1) they don't want the added chemicals in their diet, 2) some people rather the taste of organic foods. (For example I prefer the taste of freerange organic eggs but rather chemically grown carrots) 3)Some people eat organic because they don't like what the fertiliser and feed stuff manufacturers are doing to the environment. Mike -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 10 April 2001 14:55To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: t-and-f: supplements, diet and soilNettersIf I may I would like to comment on the issue of supplement, soil quality and diet.Two years ago I worked operating a spectrometer for one of the two largest soil and feed testing labs in the U.S. I ran an average of 350 feed sample test per day and some 1000+ soil samples. I helped in each aspect of the testing at one point or another and learned to read the results. On very rare occasions a sandy type soil would come in that lacked the necessary ingredient but that was the purpose of the test to tell the farmer what needed to be put in the soil to make it right. On the feed side, depending on what was being tested, (corn vs hay or alpha or sorghum) there were none that came back with lower than normal mineral or protein or even fat counts(we tested a full range.)The point is this: the idea that soils are difficient is a myth and is largely promoted by supplement companies. As is the idea that the plants/animal we eat are deficient.It is also a myth that "organic" foods are more nutritious then "non-organic foods." I will give some examples that I find humorous and Poignant.Organic salt is NaCl with fish poop in it.Honey is C6H12O6 with bee spit added.Oraganic vegetables are vegetable with extra protein in them (dead bugs) and extra fiber (cow poop.)Organic milk is milk that goes bad and or has mastitis bacteria in it.Organic vegetable cost more because the waste to insects/predation drive cost up due to waste.In addition to my experience working in the lab I also happen to have grown up on a farm in New York which is why i know a lot about poop:)Now as an athlete i have worked with the dietitians at the olympic Training centers and as a Fitness Consultant now for 12+ year I have worked with dietitians closely with clients and have had to "counsel" hundred of other on my own.The standard and what a believe correct advice is that one does get everything you need from a well balanced diet and that the non athlete will get everything they need from a crappy diet including too much fat and more importantly to many calories.That being said almost all the dietitian i worked with said that Iron and B-12 and E were the things athletes fall short of in their diets and that is because these two things are hard to absorb or they are low in the foods (but not because of soil or poor food usually but rather they are naturally rare) and they are used up in hard training. In hot wether potassium may be needed. But in any diet there is plenty of C, Ca, and protein - even with out eating beef. One might take a protein supplement out of convenience but not out of necessity. Personally I use B complex, glucosamine (really helps the joints) potassium, mg and E. I also take fish oil to help fight high Cholesterol. But I use the cheap generic stuff so as not to waste too much in my Urine.And to finish I certainly don't think taking supplements is cheating in any way and it may well be possible that in certain case and individual may need supplements but those, I think, are rare.
t-and-f: supplements, diet and soil
I think most people chose organic produce in an effort to avoid the pesticides on "normal" produce (I know that's why I do). There is growing evidence that pesticides/herbicides are endocrine system disruptors, and may have negative effects with long term consuption. Bruce Goodchild. >If I may I would like to comment on the issue of supplement, soil quality and diet. >It is also a myth that "organic" foods are more nutritious then "non-organic foods." I will give some examples that I find humorous and Poignant. > >Organic salt is NaCl with fish poop in it. >Honey is C6H12O6 with bee spit added. >Oraganic vegetables are vegetable with extra protein in them (dead bugs) and extra fiber (cow poop.) >Organic milk is milk that goes bad and or has mastitis bacteria in it. >Organic vegetable cost more because the waste to insects/predation drive cost up due to waste. >
t-and-f: supplements, diet and soil
Netters If I may I would like to comment on the issue of supplement, soil quality and diet. Two years ago I worked operating a spectrometer for one of the two largest soil and feed testing labs in the U.S. I ran an average of 350 feed sample test per day and some 1000+ soil samples. I helped in each aspect of the testing at one point or another and learned to read the results. On very rare occasions a sandy type soil would come in that lacked the necessary ingredient but that was the purpose of the test to tell the farmer what needed to be put in the soil to make it right. On the feed side, depending on what was being tested, (corn vs hay or alpha or sorghum) there were none that came back with lower than normal mineral or protein or even fat counts(we tested a full range.) The point is this: the idea that soils are difficient is a myth and is largely promoted by supplement companies. As is the idea that the plants/animal we eat are deficient. It is also a myth that "organic" foods are more nutritious then "non-organic foods." I will give some examples that I find humorous and Poignant. Organic salt is NaCl with fish poop in it. Honey is C6H12O6 with bee spit added. Oraganic vegetables are vegetable with extra protein in them (dead bugs) and extra fiber (cow poop.) Organic milk is milk that goes bad and or has mastitis bacteria in it. Organic vegetable cost more because the waste to insects/predation drive cost up due to waste. In addition to my experience working in the lab I also happen to have grown up on a farm in New York which is why i know a lot about poop:) Now as an athlete i have worked with the dietitians at the olympic Training centers and as a Fitness Consultant now for 12+ year I have worked with dietitians closely with clients and have had to "counsel" hundred of other on my own. The standard and what a believe correct advice is that one does get everything you need from a well balanced diet and that the non athlete will get everything they need from a crappy diet including too much fat and more importantly to many calories. That being said almost all the dietitian i worked with said that Iron and B-12 and E were the things athletes fall short of in their diets and that is because these two things are hard to absorb or they are low in the foods (but not because of soil or poor food usually but rather they are naturally rare) and they are used up in hard training. In hot wether potassium may be needed. But in any diet there is plenty of C, Ca, and protein - even with out eating beef. One might take a protein supplement out of convenience but not out of necessity. Personally I use B complex, glucosamine (really helps the joints) potassium, mg and E. I also take fish oil to help fight high Cholesterol. But I use the cheap generic stuff so as not to waste too much in my Urine. And to finish I certainly don't think taking supplements is cheating in any way and it may well be possible that in certain case and individual may need supplements but those, I think, are rare.
