Re: [Tagging] Vacant shop tagging...
2010/8/16 Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm: On 15/08/2010 22:30, John Smith wrote: I'm not sure this is the best way to do things, what do others think? If its vacant, then its not a shop, so shouldn't be tagged as such. IMHO a shop is a shop because it is officially commercial space (and not residential), it has a separate entrance (usually from the street), it has appropriate windows, etc. Of course there might be exceptions, but I think you get it. Otherwise it will show up on applications / renderers that show anything tagged as shop=* with a shop icon. that might be the problem of these applications but they could filter vacant if they don't like it. ie use a separate namespace, so tag it something like disused:shop=yes Then it can be easily ignored by applications that just want to show currently existing shops, or rendered differently etc. that's a good idea as well, and very versatile. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Vacant shop tagging...
2010/8/16 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: Perhaps building=disused (not shop because it's not a shop when it's empty, and disused by analogy with railroads)? -1, because the shop is usually a small fraction of the building, and especially for vacant shops I wouldn't expect the whole building to be disused. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging for streets with sharrows?
On 10/08/2010 11:54, Mike N. wrote: There are a number of local streets being converted from 4-lane to 2 lanes + center turn + sharrows. http://bikehugger.com/2006/12/whats-a-sharrow.html What is the best way to tag these - they were discussed briefly in the recent shoulder, etc thread, but I can't find any consensus. I found the proposed cycleway=shared_lane , which seems to be as good a solution as any. Comments? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Hi OK, can I get some clarification here please? A sharrow does not describe what type of cycleway it is, or whereabouts it is, but purely some painted lines on the road in the form a chevron arrows as a sign. Is this correct? If so, I personally wouldn't bother, but if you feel the need to, please don't use it to try fudge a description of a cycleway which already has far to convoluted tagging system. Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Hi everybody, as I noted in my diary, the forums,... http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/!i!/diary/11477 I would like to improve the features page and other wiki pages around. Therefore I asked at the talk page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features#Cleanup_Request I checked the current german map feature list and noticed a lot few features and key that are new but non proposed. I beg the authors to move them out of the list back to the proposed features. I create a template to label them http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features#Non_proposed_features Hope nobody is angry, of course everybody can tag as he like but IMHO the feature list needs some kind of soft moderation: 1. it is for the most people 'the reference' esp. newbies 2. the community should have the right to talk about new ideas 3. Proposals seem to be the only way to avoid conflicts and get good models that work fine worldwide. Of course the proposal process is far away from beeing perfect, looks a little bit like master control, makes it ardous to introduce new features. But on the other hand we get a good overview whats new, have time to think about ideas and involve the community in a creative way instead of showing something final. Especially complete new Keys like OFFICE=* or EMERGENCY=* should be discussed to show up where their items start and end and if there might be better solutions. So what do you think? regards Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On 16/08/2010 16:31, Matthias Meißer wrote: Hi everybody, as I noted in my diary, the forums,... http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/!i!/diary/11477 I would like to improve the features page and other wiki pages around. Therefore I asked at the talk page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features#Cleanup_Request I checked the current german map feature list and noticed a lot few features and key that are new but non proposed. I beg the authors to move them out of the list back to the proposed features. I create a template to label them http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features#Non_proposed_features Hope nobody is angry, of course everybody can tag as he like but IMHO the feature list needs some kind of soft moderation: 1. it is for the most people 'the reference' esp. newbies 2. the community should have the right to talk about new ideas 3. Proposals seem to be the only way to avoid conflicts and get good models that work fine worldwide. Of course the proposal process is far away from beeing perfect, looks a little bit like master control, makes it ardous to introduce new features. But on the other hand we get a good overview whats new, have time to think about ideas and involve the community in a creative way instead of showing something final. Especially complete new Keys like OFFICE=* or EMERGENCY=* should be discussed to show up where their items start and end and if there might be better solutions. So what do you think? +1 ! regards Matthias -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Well, this idea is not to telling you do's and dont's, it's just to manage ideas. IMHO the current process lacks a few details that are mentioned (and can be discussed by everyone here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features#Cleanup_Request As some of you might noted with the weekly newsletter the things will become better. And I'm pretty sure, that creating a proposal will be more enjoyfull if there are more people that pay attention on it (before vote). Is there any kind of guardian group or management team for the proposal process? (No Masters, just janitors) I think the proposed page should be promoted as garage or incubator and let the people understand that it is on all to expend and finalise the single ideas. I would like to move the corresponding tags back to /Proposal so everybody that searches can find them. I'm not sure that to do with emergency, that looks well but seem to reintroduce some objects (e.g. HIGHWAY=EMERGENCY_ACCESS_POINT). Or even with OFFICE=*, any ideas? Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Am 16. August 2010 16:31 schrieb Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: I checked the current german map feature list and noticed a lot few features and key that are new but non proposed. I beg the authors to move them out of the list back to the proposed features. this might not in all cases be justified. Actually it isn't helpful if established features are taken back to proposed status for formal criteria. ... but IMHO the feature list needs some kind of soft moderation: which is already executed by the comunity. In unclear cases the disputed features will usually pop up on the mailing lists for further discussion. 1. it is for the most people 'the reference' esp. newbies 2. the community should have the right to talk about new ideas +1 3. Proposals seem to be the only way to avoid conflicts and get good models that work fine worldwide. I'm not so sure about this. I think many features just get somehow into the system and get documented in the wiki later when they are already widely in use. Especially complete new Keys like OFFICE=* or EMERGENCY=* should be discussed to show up where their items start and end and if there might be better solutions. I think this is currently in discussion on the lists for emergency. Office was already discussed quite a bit in the past months. AFAIK it is not disputed. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging for streets with sharrows?
2010/8/16 Anthony o...@inbox.org: As a side-effect, it also makes it explicit that bicycles are allowed. - As an European I am interested in this: aren't they allowed on any non-highway/freeway/interstate unless explicitly forbidden? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Well I'm not talking about undoing very common features but about a few new ones that seemed to be a bad design (even if I like the idea to get a feature e.g. for OFFICE=*). For fine tuning is the /Proposed list, right? Yes soft moderation by the community but therefore the community needs some central space and some guidelines. You already see the lack of voters, just cause it's to decentral communication atm. How should anybody/a newbie new that there are still design problems with feature XYZ? :) Later documentation is ok cause they approved their usage already. But introducing new ideas using the map features list is not a good idea in my opinion. Thats why nobody knows that there are new features, nobody talked about it, nobody made a review :( Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging for streets with sharrows?
On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 12:03 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/8/16 Anthony o...@inbox.org: As a side-effect, it also makes it explicit that bicycles are allowed. - As an European I am interested in this: aren't they allowed on any non-highway/freeway/interstate unless explicitly forbidden? Yes, but motorists often need reminding (that they're allowed on the road *and* that they don't have to ride in the gutter). Hence sharrows and 'share the road' signs. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Am 16. August 2010 18:09 schrieb Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: central space and some guidelines. You already see the lack of voters, just cause it's to decentral communication atm. RFC and voting start are announced on talk-list and often on some local lists as well. I fear that the lack of voting contribution is due to few interest. Not even a vote on the definition of our main tag (highway) let to more than 130 votes (and not so few voters wrote stuff like abstain veto Nggh I just got out and map instead of wasting time wikifidling or voting on pointless things etc.) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/17 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: opinion. Thats why nobody knows that there are new features, nobody talked about it, nobody made a review :( But they do get talked about, take for example this thread where someone added a shop that no one seems to agree with: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2010-August/003504.html Someone will clean up this shortly after enough time has passed. As for emergency, there was A LOT of discussion on both the tagging list and the main talk list, people generally notice. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
But OSM is more than just the major lists (see people like me that sign on/off lists to avoid to much mails). As I said it would be a good idea to feature our proposal incubator a little bit more ;) I'm pretty sure if the users have no Push but a Pop media (e.g. the weekly newsletters) they would be interested in co-designing some new features. I guess it's a little bit a problem between generations (ML vs. RSS/Forums/...). I already asked if we should design a template to make sure that people leaf a useful comment? regards Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/17 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: But OSM is more than just the major lists (see people like me that sign on/off lists to avoid to much mails). As I said it would be a good idea to feature our proposal incubator a little bit more ;) I'm pretty sure if the users have no Push but a Pop media (e.g. the weekly newsletters) they would be interested in co-designing some new features. I guess it's a little bit a problem between generations (ML vs. RSS/Forums/...). The problem with using the wiki is it is a very poor medium to try and communicate complex topics... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal: Energy generator power types
2010/8/16 Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/power_type Basically I have deprecated power_type=photovoltaic and power_type=solar-thermal, which combine two bits of information (source of energy, and type of energy generated). This also allows for adequate tagging of generators that produce more than one type of energy from a single source, such as a gas-fired combine heat and power plant. I think that's a good idea to separate source and type. It isn't currently reflected on the actual tagging according to tagwatch (http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Europe/En/keystats_power_source.html photovoltaic 266, solar 32) but it is logical and given that tagging these details is still at the beginning I think it's a good idea to clean this up now. thanks for your work (and probably those of others engaged in this field in OSM) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
Proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dancing_school /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 05:15, Andreas Labres l...@lab.at wrote: Proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dancing_school I'm wondering if a sub-tag would be more useful, eg amenity=school school=dance That way you could group other similar schools, like martial arts, using school=* would also allow you to better tag existing schools, eg primary/middle/secondary/tertiary ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Well ok might be possbile but for that reason there are other channels e.g. forums, MLs that have their own pros and cons. So nobody really has a problem with refactoring /Proposed, right? If so it would be nice if you review the upcoming changes. But this will take time cause I'm involved in other projects, too. good night Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal: Energy generator power types
2010/8/16 Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net: Basically I have deprecated power_type=photovoltaic and power_type=solar-thermal, which combine two bits of information (source of energy, and type of energy generated). This also allows for adequate tagging of generators that produce more than one type of energy from a single source, such as a gas-fired combine heat and power plant. The difference between photovoltaic and solar-thermal isn't the type of produced energy. In both cases it is electric energy, but via different physical ways. photovoltaic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic_system solar-thermal - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower ... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower ... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_tower_%28downdraft%29 But it would be good to propose a tag for heat plants or smaller block heating stations. André ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/17 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: Well ok might be possbile but for that reason there are other channels e.g. forums, MLs that have their own pros and cons. There is software that can show mailing list posts in the same way as forums, the forums are only used by a minority of people, most people seem to use the mailing lists. So nobody really has a problem with refactoring /Proposed, right? If so it would be nice if you review the upcoming changes. But this will take time cause I'm involved in other projects, too. You seemed to have ignored the existing comments, most seemed indifferent to the changes or disagreed. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Monday 16 August 2010 22:07:07 Matthias Meißer wrote: So nobody really has a problem with refactoring /Proposed, right? Yes, many people will have a problem with that. The people actually voting on the wiki are a very small group. Pushing tags already documented and in use back into the proposal process will upset a significant number of people. People subscribing to this mailinglist (and particularly actively contributing to) this mailing list are a minority of the mappers too. Tagging discussions got moved from the talk list to this list because most people didn't want to see the long winded discussions. Concluding less than six hours after your initial post to this mailinglist that nobody has a problem with what you propose is: youthfull exuberance ? impatience ? It is certainly is not the way to go. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Sry @all, was my mistake, what I tried to say is that I will improve the /proposed page (and only this one). So restyling, splitting text but nothing on the features itself, is this ok? Yes you can read MLs in a forum or RSS like way, but mostly you have to be member of the mailinglist to participate. Indeed I believe that the mass doesn't listen to ML, forums, or anything else ;) But I doesn't want to talk about this communication channel thing to much Well please pay attention that the whole discussion doesn't get to emotional. Think about I'm new to this list and doesn't want to tell you how the things work...I just want to show you show you my suggestion and asking you for advice. I participate like the most of us cause I try to improve OSM and not to hurt somebody ;) regards Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging for streets with sharrows?
On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 12:03 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/8/16 Anthony o...@inbox.org: As a side-effect, it also makes it explicit that bicycles are allowed. - As an European I am interested in this: aren't they allowed on any non-highway/freeway/interstate unless explicitly forbidden? Sure. They're implicitly allowed already. But this does make it explicit. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging for streets with sharrows?
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:27:30 -0400, Anthony wrote: But it's not effectively the same thing. If it were, sharrows wouldn't have ever been invented. Not true, the old-style BIKE ROUTE signs no longer appear in the current MUTCD (thus are being phased out nationwide). Sharrows and bicycle guidance signs giving destinations of routes replace the old style signs. Otherwise, there is no difference between the old Bike Route signs and the new pavement and signage markings. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging for streets with sharrows?
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:01:09 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote: He wasn’t saying that bicycle=designated is always a sharrow, but that a sharrow is effectively the same thing as a sign saying “bike route”. They’re both ways of marking something as a designated route for bicycles. I don't agree with this. A single isolated road could have a sharrow, but wouldn't be part of a route. Now, Steve (and Mike), what's wrong (if anything) with bicycle=designated; sharrow=yes? It doesn't really fit with my understanding of bicycle=designated. I understand that tag as meaning yes, bicycles are definitely permitted here, and there is signage or legislation to prove it. It means it's a designated route. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Hi everybody, as I noted in my diary, the forums,... http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/!i!/diary/11477 I would like to improve the features page and other wiki pages around. Therefore I asked at the talk page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features#Cleanup_Request I checked the current german map feature list and noticed a lot few features and key that are new but non proposed. I beg the authors to move them out of the list back to the proposed features. I create a template to label them http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features#Non_proposed_features Hope nobody is angry, of course everybody can tag as he like but IMHO the feature list needs some kind of soft moderation: 1. it is for the most people 'the reference' esp. newbies 2. the community should have the right to talk about new ideas 3. Proposals seem to be the only way to avoid conflicts and get good models that work fine worldwide. Of course the proposal process is far away from beeing perfect, looks a little bit like master control, makes it ardous to introduce new that is the complete problem, the proposal process is imperfect and occurs in two places, although only the wiki is noted as the place on the wiki before you decide to move everything around on the wiki 1. rewrite the proposals process closer to reality and get agreement 2. decide with others, not by yourself what is approved and not approved 3. long ago a committee was suggested to get this sort of thing organised and howled down by the groups who like free tagging and free documentation. Those who liked consensus were annoyed by the incredibly small number of wiki voters who approved and disapproved tags ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 07:41, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: amenity=school school=middle I know I brought up middle schools, but are they deemed a type of secondary school? The reason I ask, it might be more useful to tag which grades, for example in Australia there are central schools which cover k-10 or k-12 and they primary+secondary at the same location... school=truck_driving school=driving driving:type=[car|truck|bike] ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
2010/8/16 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: school=truck_driving school=driving driving:type=[car|truck|bike] what about school=dolphins for a school of dolphins? Or hospital=tree nursery? IMHO we shouldn't create our categories/keys only based on language which might sometimes be ambiguous or misleading. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 07:57, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: -1, IMHO no. A dancing school, boxing school, ski school, etc. are IMHO not in the same category than general-education schools. They might be classified in one category, but that is IMHO not school. That's what the sub tag is for, a school is where you gain knowledge or experience in what is being taught, so as long as the sub-tag distinguishes things sufficiently, and this is where primary/secondary or even just school=general would come in, there should be no issue. are they similar, martial arts schools and highschools? You attend to be taught don't you? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 08:03, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: what about school=dolphins for a school of dolphins? Or hospital=tree nursery? IMHO we shouldn't create our categories/keys only based on language which might sometimes be ambiguous or misleading. So far you seem to be giving silly examples, all the school examples I gave were for people wanting, or forced to, to learn or gain experience... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 8/16/10 6:06 PM, John Smith wrote: On 17 August 2010 08:03, M∡rtin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: what about school=dolphins for a school of dolphins? Or hospital=tree nursery? IMHO we shouldn't create our categories/keys only based on language which might sometimes be ambiguous or misleading. So far you seem to be giving silly examples, all the school examples I gave were for people wanting, or forced to, to learn or gain experience... yes, really, that's more ridicule than an argument, Martin. not at all up to your usual high standard. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
Am 17.08.2010 00:31, schrieb John Smith: On 17 August 2010 08:24, Ulf Lampingulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: What is the benefit to put this all under amenity=school - and then have a tag no renderer actually can use, because it is far too generic? The benefit is an existing tag that isn't very specific, so we could imply the existing tag to be amenity=school, school=general if there is no school=* tag. That's not a benefit, that's only one of the possible definitions. Implying a specific meaning in the absence of a tag is usually asking for trouble. People tend to forget tags while not knowing your implication. Regards, ULFL ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
2010/8/17 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 17 August 2010 08:24, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: What is the benefit to put this all under amenity=school - and then have a tag no renderer actually can use, because it is far too generic? The benefit is an existing tag that isn't very specific, so we could imply the existing tag to be amenity=school, school=general if there is no school=* tag. it doesn't change the good point Ulf made: a potential data consumer would have to know all school types for a pleasant results. Currently most schools are tagged with amenity=school and maybe a name. This is sufficient for many maps. If we now start to put all kind of special interest schools, sports facilities and other in this category, it will get useless. Renderers would have to know all local types of general schools that will get entered in the subtag school (because it will not remain general and because it is a good idea to tag school=fr:lycee, de:Gymnasium, it:liceo, highschool, etc.). Or they will only evaluate one tag (amenity=school) because they do this for years, and they will start to display rubbish. I'm generally in favour of subtagging, where it is adequat. I just don't see the benefit here and worse, I feel it would harm. In the case of schools I think there are already enough different types of general-education schools to differentiate. If you make a map of schools you will in most cases don't want the boxing schools in. Another hint might be to see how others handle this. If you look at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_by_country there is not the faintest hint to other than general education schools. No word about driving schools or dancing schools. They are very different. Really. Btw: the OSM Wiki refers to Wikipedia's definition of school. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 08:53, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: it doesn't change the good point Ulf made: a potential data consumer would have to know all school types for a pleasant results. Currently That's actually a reason to sub-tag, so they can show a generic icon instead of needing to constantly update their rendering style sheet for a new amenity added every other day. most schools are tagged with amenity=school and maybe a name. This is sufficient for many maps. If we now start to put all kind of special interest schools, sports facilities and other in this category, it will get useless. Renderers would have to know all local types of general schools that will get entered in the subtag school (because it will not remain general and because it is a good idea to tag school=fr:lycee, de:Gymnasium, it:liceo, highschool, etc.). Or they will only evaluate one tag (amenity=school) because they do this for years, and they will start to display rubbish. You seem to be trying to convince me that subtagging is a good idea and others are already doing it anyway. I'm generally in favour of subtagging, where it is adequat. I just don't see the benefit here and worse, I feel it would harm. In the case of schools I think there are already enough different types of general-education schools to differentiate. If you make a map of schools you will in most cases don't want the boxing schools in. You haven't really shown a bad harm, schools will continue to render as is, these other types of schools are also for learning, so where is the problem? Another hint might be to see how others handle this. If you look at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_by_country there is not the faintest hint to other than general education schools. No word about driving schools or dancing schools. They are very different. Really. Btw: the OSM Wiki refers to Wikipedia's definition of school. Wikipedia is a good starting point for research, but no one usually uses them as a primary source. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
2010/8/17 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 17 August 2010 08:53, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: it doesn't change the good point Ulf made: a potential data consumer would have to know all school types for a pleasant results. Currently That's actually a reason to sub-tag, so they can show a generic icon instead of needing to constantly update their rendering style sheet for a new amenity added every other day. The point was (maybe my message was too long to get this clear) that the same generic icon for schools which do general education in the morning and maybe afternoon to kids AND the same time for all other places that educate all kind of people at all times in all kind of special interests like dancing, driving, swimming, cooking, boxing, playing chess, knitting, sex, etc. is IMHO a bad idea. You seem to be trying to convince me that subtagging is a good idea and others are already doing it anyway. yes, the ones that said they were doing it did it the way I promote it: for real schools. You haven't really shown a bad harm, schools will continue to render as is, these other types of schools are also for learning, so where is the problem? too generic. Schools will not be distinguishable any more. very different. Really. Btw: the OSM Wiki refers to Wikipedia's definition of school. Wikipedia is a good starting point for research, but no one usually uses them as a primary source. Well OSM did. The definition of the wiki says in the first line: see wikipedia and a link to: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dschool cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 8/16/10 7:23 PM, John Smith wrote: On 17 August 2010 09:20, M∡rtin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: The point was (maybe my message was too long to get this clear) that the same generic icon for schools which do general education in the morning and maybe afternoon to kids AND the same time for all other places that educate all kind of people at all times in all kind of special interests like dancing, driving, swimming, cooking, boxing, playing chess, knitting, sex, etc. is IMHO a bad idea. Ok, so don't use amenity=school, but do you agree that maybe these other schools could be still tagged as school=* instead of amenity=dance_school, amenity=driving_school etc? right, amenity=special_school or something on that order, and then subtag with school= i don't object to splitting that way, but there's no good reason to further pollute amenity when we can subtag with school= richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 09:29, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: amenity=special_school or something on that order, and then subtag with school= i don't object to splitting that way, but there's no good reason to further pollute amenity when we can subtag with school= Do we even need an amenity tag? After all we don't tag shops as amenity=shop, shop=*... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17.08.10 01:29, Richard Welty wrote: amenity=special_school or something on that order, and then subtag with school= I can't see any benefit subsuming those ...schools that are no schools under one tag. They all need special icons, there is no generic icon for these. One more thing, a dancing school has more of a leisure time amusement, sometimes of practicing good behaviour, than of lerning (the steps). /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 8/16/10 8:39 PM, Andreas Labres wrote: On 17.08.10 01:29, Richard Welty wrote: amenity=special_school or something on that order, and then subtag with school= I can't see any benefit subsuming those ...schools that are no schools under one tag. They all need special icons, there is no generic icon for these. One more thing, a dancing school has more of a leisure time amusement, sometimes of practicing good behaviour, than of lerning (the steps). there are dancing schools and there are dancing schools, my daughter has gone to both. it's not a good idea to generalize something like this. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17.08.10 02:46, Richard Welty wrote: there are dancing schools and there are dancing schools Well, maybe we need a subtag... ;) /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] turn restrictions, multiple time intervals
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:30:26 -0700 Michael Barabanov michael.baraba...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, How would one tag a turn restriction ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turn_restrictions) which is active say 6-9AM and 3-6PM every day? hour_on/hour_off seem to only be sufficient for one time interval. Michael. Maybe: hour_on=06:00;15:00 hour_off=09:00;18:00 -- Cheers Ross ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] turn restrictions, multiple time intervals
On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Michael Barabanov michael.baraba...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, How would one tag a turn restriction (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turn_restrictions) which is active say 6-9AM and 3-6PM every day? hour_on/hour_off seem to only be sufficient for one time interval. FIXME=this restriction is only active 6-9AM and 3-6PM; add this information when we come up with a good way of tagging it :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging farmers markets?
On 17/08/2010 01:43, Richard Welty wrote: i don't see an obvious tag in the system. i'm not talking about shop=farm, where the shop is physically located at the farm, but about places where one or more producers come together to sell. some are intermittant (and would need schedule tags), but others are somewhat permanent. amenity=marketplace would seem to cover that. With the opening hours tag for the times it is there. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dmarketplace Though it doesn't specify that its specifically a farmers market, maybe an additional tag for that? Though what is the definition of a farmers market anyway? Is it just for farmers / producers? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging farmers markets?
On 8/16/10 9:56 PM, Craig Wallace wrote: On 17/08/2010 01:43, Richard Welty wrote: i don't see an obvious tag in the system. i'm not talking about shop=farm, where the shop is physically located at the farm, but about places where one or more producers come together to sell. some are intermittant (and would need schedule tags), but others are somewhat permanent. amenity=marketplace would seem to cover that. With the opening hours tag for the times it is there. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dmarketplace Though it doesn't specify that its specifically a farmers market, maybe an additional tag for that? Though what is the definition of a farmers market anyway? Is it just for farmers / producers? ok, but how about a physical building named Ryan's Farmers Market where i presume (i haven't been inside, i just saw it for the first time today) the produce is from local farmers, but it's a conventional brick-and-mortar store with normal hours. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] turn restrictions, multiple time intervals
Thanks. BTW, tagwatch does have those: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Planet/En/keystats_hour_on.html On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:30:26 -0700 Michael Barabanov michael.baraba...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, How would one tag a turn restriction ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turn_restrictions) which is active say 6-9AM and 3-6PM every day? hour_on/hour_off seem to only be sufficient for one time interval. Michael. Maybe: hour_on=06:00;15:00 hour_off=09:00;18:00 -- Cheers Ross ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging farmers markets?
On 17/08/2010 03:09, Richard Welty wrote: ok, but how about a physical building named Ryan's Farmers Market where i presume (i haven't been inside, i just saw it for the first time today) the produce is from local farmers, but it's a conventional brick-and-mortar store with normal hours. amenity=marketplace + building=yes, if it is actually an indoor market, ie with individual stalls selling their own products etc. Though from what you describe, it sounds more like its just one shop - ie all operated by the same company, and with just one set of checkouts etc - but just calling itself a farmers market? In which case, I would suggest tagging it as shop=greengrocer (if its mostly fruit and vegetables), or maybe shop=supermarket if it has a wider range of products. Or maybe shop=food if it sells a range of foods (though that tag is currently undocumented). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] turn restrictions, multiple time intervals
On 17 August 2010 12:18, Michael Barabanov michael.baraba...@gmail.com wrote: Seems like double work to me. Ross's suggestion may just work. If there're no objections, I'll update the wiki. That would probably be fine for every day of the week, and yes I noticed day_on/off, but that seems to overly complicate things and also limit you if there is more complex restrictions, if there wasn't anything already existing I would have suggested an access tag based on opening_hours, eg: access:time=mo-fr 00:00-05:59;09:00-14:59;18:00-23:59 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] turn restrictions, multiple time intervals
I agree. But I'm not in the mood to start a voting process on changing hour_on to access:time. On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:58 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: On 17 August 2010 12:18, Michael Barabanov michael.baraba...@gmail.com wrote: Seems like double work to me. Ross's suggestion may just work. If there're no objections, I'll update the wiki. That would probably be fine for every day of the week, and yes I noticed day_on/off, but that seems to overly complicate things and also limit you if there is more complex restrictions, if there wasn't anything already existing I would have suggested an access tag based on opening_hours, eg: access:time=mo-fr 00:00-05:59;09:00-14:59;18:00-23:59 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] turn restrictions, multiple time intervals
On 17 August 2010 13:14, Michael Barabanov michael.baraba...@gmail.com wrote: I agree. But I'm not in the mood to start a voting process on changing hour_on to access:time. We keep getting told this is a do-ocracy, so if you find something more useful, just do it? :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Dealing with types of places (possibly US-specific)?
First, what's the US standard for incorporated places? Should the actual form of government (town/city/etc) be used? More importantly, how are unincorporated places handled? With respect to boundaries, census-designated places are not really suited for our use. Sometimes it's easy to define a boundary based on various historical or current factors such as subdivision plats or land use, but often this can't really be done and the only thing that makes sense is a single node. When there is a boundary, should it have boundary=administrative? (Probably not, since it's not an administrative boundary, but what if it's a well-defined planning area?) What place=* values should be used for unincorporated places? In some states villages are incorporated; do we skip this value? Do we use suburb at all, or is everything village or hamlet? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dealing with types of places (possibly US-specific)?
You should check out the 50,000 other threads on place=*, it varies too much from country to country and even regions within countries based on what people expect to see on maps, there doesn't seem to be any objective methods to do this that would be consistent within countries, let alone the world, for many various cultural and historical reasons. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] turn restrictions, multiple time intervals
I will, once I see a restriction that doesn't fit:) On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 8:29 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: On 17 August 2010 13:14, Michael Barabanov michael.baraba...@gmail.com wrote: I agree. But I'm not in the mood to start a voting process on changing hour_on to access:time. We keep getting told this is a do-ocracy, so if you find something more useful, just do it? :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
