[Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
Quite a number of times I've noticed a single way having the tag boundary=administrative (I assume having come from the Australian ABS import and being part of a larger relation marking some town or suburb) but also having waterway=stream (for example http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/38128067). My interpretation of the One feature, one OSM-object suggestion would be that this is bad because the single way is being used for two different purposes (representing a river, and representing an administrative boundary). Because then you don't know which tags refer to the river feature and which to the administrative boundary feature. I would guess that the correct thing to do is have two different ways which share the same nodes, one for the river and another for the boundary. But I don't know how to duplicate an existing way like this in JOSM. If this is the agreed upon thing then it would be great if someone could run a script that split the waterway tags from the boundary ones into a new way. Having learnt from my last foray into running a semi-automated script (http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2010-August/007037.html), I'll await feedback before rushing into writing one for this purpose. It's not just rivers. For instance when I was adding an island, the feature was already traced out as way http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/32317361 and then to seperate the islet feature from the administrative boundary I added a new way for this http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/78499826. But I don't know what's the best practice here. This is really a general mapping question, not about the use of specific tags so I'm not sure if tagging is the right list to post to, but anyway. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On 22 September 2010 21:19, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote: My interpretation of the One feature, one OSM-object suggestion I can only assume that was referring to physical objects, rather than meta information. Boundaries aren't a physical object, and they're not properly dealt with most of the time in any case. Waterways is one of the few things, especially where no hi-res imagery is available, I actually think they can be shared. Take for example the Murray RIver, the south bank is the border, it's also the south bank of the river, is there really much more in splitting them since when one moves they both do. I very very strongly disagree that a bot should be used to split this information, too many boundary relations already get broken by people, I shudder to imagine how badly a bot could really screw things up. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.com wrote: With JOSM you can achieve that by drawing a way by clicking on the node one by one. It will draw a new way using the same nodes. That is okay for a couple nodes, but is error prone and tedious for hundreds of nodes (like if you are matching an outline of a beach to the existing coastline nodes). There are several school for such situation (ie. boundary+river) : * some tell to redraw completly all things (node + ways) so that it can be later into several layers (if OSM handle layer someday). * some split boundary and add tags (reuse nodes and ways) * some redraw way using the same nodes All have advantage and disadvantage : numbers of nodes, creating dupe nodes (QA warnings), maintenance difficulty... So this is an ongoing issue with no real concensus or agreement? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 9:29 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Boundaries aren't a physical object, and they're not properly dealt with most of the time in any case. Waterways is one of the few things, especially where no hi-res imagery is available, I actually think they can be shared. Take for example the Murray RIver, the south bank is the border, it's also the south bank of the river, is there really much more in splitting them since when one moves they both do. They may need to be split later anyway if the river moves (say from erosion), but the administrative boundary doesn't. If however a river and boundary were split into different ways now then tags aren't mixed and cannot cause conflicts later on. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On 22/09/2010 13:36, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorangepdora...@mac.com wrote: With JOSM you can achieve that by drawing a way by clicking on the node one by one. It will draw a new way using the same nodes. That is okay for a couple nodes, but is error prone and tedious for hundreds of nodes (like if you are matching an outline of a beach to the existing coastline nodes). on JOSM : copy the way (ctr + C), create a new layer (ctrl + N) and don't clic in it, paste the way (ctrl + V) (the nodes are at the same place), put the tags, merge the layers, merge the duplicated nodes (validator plugin), done ! There are several school for such situation (ie. boundary+river) : * some tell to redraw completly all things (node + ways) so that it can be later into several layers (if OSM handle layer someday). * some split boundary and add tags (reuse nodes and ways) * some redraw way using the same nodes All have advantage and disadvantage : numbers of nodes, creating dupe nodes (QA warnings), maintenance difficulty... So this is an ongoing issue with no real concensus or agreement? yes. I use the 3d way (drawing 2 ways sharing nodes). I prefer this method for the reason given : if the bank/flow changes, the border may not. But it is a mapping style... -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 10:03 PM, Vincent Pottier vpott...@gmail.com wrote: on JOSM : copy the way (ctr + C), create a new layer (ctrl + N) and don't clic in it, paste the way (ctrl + V) (the nodes are at the same place), put the tags, merge the layers, merge the duplicated nodes (validator plugin), done ! But I wouldn't want to merge other existing duplicate nodes, only the ones I would have just created. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On 22. September 2010 18:20 Andrew Harvey [andrew.harv...@gmail.com] wrote: If this is the agreed upon thing then it would be great if someone could run a script that split the waterway tags from the boundary ones into a new way. On 22. September 2010 18:32 Pierre-Alain Dorange [pdora...@mac.com] wrote: There are several school for such situation (ie. boundary+river) : * some tell to redraw completly all things (node + ways) so that it can be later into several layers (if OSM handle layer someday). * some split boundary and add tags (reuse nodes and ways) * some redraw way using the same nodes All have advantage and disadvantage : numbers of nodes, creating dupe nodes (QA warnings), maintenance difficulty... On 22. September 2010 18:37 Andrew Harvey [andrew.harv...@gmail.com] wrote: So this is an ongoing issue with no real concensus or agreement? I would like to recommend to read http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits/Code_of_Conduct especially written in bold characters Also, things that you may read in the Wiki are not a carte blanche for you to change everything so that it fits the Wiki rules. Individual mappers have every right to tag things differently from what is stated in the Wiki, and it is not OK for anybody to turn the suggestions contained in the Wiki into strict rules that are applied automatically. Happy mapping Willi ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 2:24 PM, Willi wil...@gmx.de wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits/Code_of_Conduct .. you may read in the Wiki are not a carte blanche for you to change everything so that it fits the Wiki rules. And, of course, these rules include the code of conduct on the wiki... ;-) Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On 22/09/2010 14:17, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 10:03 PM, Vincent Pottiervpott...@gmail.com wrote: on JOSM : copy the way (ctr + C), create a new layer (ctrl + N) and don't clic in it, paste the way (ctrl + V) (the nodes are at the same place), put the tags, merge the layers, merge the duplicated nodes (validator plugin), done ! But I wouldn't want to merge other existing duplicate nodes, only the ones I would have just created. You can work with only the way you want to duplicate by loading it (Crtl + Maj + O way id of the way) -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On 22/09/2010 14:14, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2010/9/22 Vincent Pottiervpott...@gmail.com: yes. I use the 3d way (drawing 2 ways sharing nodes). I prefer this method for the reason given : if the bank/flow changes, the border may not. and you will be happily unglueing nodes till the end of your days ;-) if needed, if needed only that is not each day... and they are other tricks... And if you don't use this way and get a more acurate source Nothing is perfect. -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On 22 September 2010 21:43, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote: They may need to be split later anyway if the river moves (say from erosion), but the administrative boundary doesn't. If however a river and boundary were split into different ways now then tags aren't mixed and cannot cause conflicts later on. The example I gave of the Murray River is one explicit example where the boundary is fixed the main flow of the southern bank of the river, regardless what happens to the river the boundary moves with it. Other water ways are the same, the boundary and the waterway are the same thing, for all intents and purposes and there is no good reason to separate them, in fact there is many good reasons to just leave them as is. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] BE vs AE: kerb
Recently someone noted on the tagging-ML, that curb is AE and the OSM-style would be kerb. Unfortunately curb is quite frequent in the wiki (and probably in tagging although I think tagging kerbs is not yet a well established practise). I encourage everybody to stick to one of our golden rules and tag like the Empire does. If you spot any curbs in the wiki or data, please convert them to kerbs. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 5:43 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: As for the specific question, I would say that if the boundary is defined by the natural feature, it's probably OK to use one way. For example, http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/78384443 is legally defined as ...to the water's edge of Little Lake Conway; thence run southeasterly along said waters edge to a point of intersection... On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:41 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: The example I gave of the Murray River is one explicit example where the boundary is fixed the main flow of the southern bank of the river, regardless what happens to the river the boundary moves with it. Other water ways are the same, the boundary and the waterway are the same thing, for all intents and purposes and there is no good reason to separate them, in fact there is many good reasons to just leave them as is. Yes, I also think there are many good reasons to leave them as is, using a single way. But I can also think of reasons to have multiple ways. What happens if tags conflict then? For example just say the boundary actually had a name, e.g. X Y Border, but the river also has a different name. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 5:43 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: I think one feature, one object is usually used in the other direction: you don't tag the boundary name=x and also put it in a boundary relation with name=x. You don't put a fast_food node in the middle of a building that only holds the fast food place; you put the fast_food tags on the building (or, even better, the parcel of land owned by the company, which includes the parking lot). Having a boundary relation and a node at the city center violates this guideline, but is a valid exception because the node carries other information about where the city center is. Yep. That makes sense. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On 9/22/10 6:47 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote: What happens if tags conflict then? For example just say the boundary actually had a name, e.g. X Y Border, but the river also has a different name. one of the operative theories here is that in cases of shared ways, we should be using the higher level relations that contain the ways to provide the distinction. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Interpreting One feature, one OSM-object
On 23 September 2010 08:47, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote: What happens if tags conflict then? For example just say the boundary actually had a name, e.g. X Y Border, but the river also has a different name. Since it would be almost impossible for a single way along a river to be a closed area, you'd need to use a relation to group all the boundaries together, you add the boundary name to the relation. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
