Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
2014-06-09 22:12 GMT+02:00 nounours77 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com: Should we tag flat areas as natural=peak ele=0 and then tell the renderer not to render it as a mountain? No, because that's not a peak. Should we tag deserts as water=lake and type=dry to tell the renderer to render it yellow instead of blue? No, because that's not a lake. Go out and ask hundred people on the street what a ATM is - and everybody will answer you the same thing. Nobody will tell you an ATM is an machine which does NOT give you money! We use human-readable words as tags, so we have to stick to their meanings. Well, it does give you money. Just not paper money. What if it gave you paper money for Bitcoins? Would it be an ATM then? What if there's a shop that only works with bitcoins? Is it a shop? An ATM isn't a machine that gives you paper money, the term is broader than that. But please do not do it in a way that interferes with what others are doing for a long time. So, you want advertise Bitcoin on OSM (what I really think is not the place for this - but o.k. ...) I don't get how tagging something correctly is advertising. I'm not that stubborn, if people are against tagging Bitcoin ATMs as amenity=atm I'm fine with that. An alternative could be amenity=bitcoin_atm. Maybe there should be a vote. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
2014-06-10 11:36 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: Well, it does give you money. Just not paper money. thing is, it doesn't give you cash. What kind of cash machine is this, that doesn't give you cash? What if it gave you paper money for Bitcoins? Would it be an ATM then? IMHO yes. What if there's a shop that only works with bitcoins? Is it a shop? why shouldn't it? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
On 09/06/2014 22:12, nounours77 wrote: Go out and ask hundred people on the street what a ATM is - and everybody will answer you the same thing. [..] ATM = Automatic Teller Machine... An electronic telecommunications device that enables the customers of a financial institution to perform financial transactions without the need for a human cashier, clerk or bank teller [..] Using an ATM, customers can access their bank deposit or credit accounts in order to make a variety of transactions such as cash withdrawals, check balances, or credit mobile phones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Teller_Machine) So an ATM that manages Bitcoin transactions is most definitely amenity=atm. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
2014-06-10 11:44 GMT+02:00 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Teller_Machine) So an ATM that manages Bitcoin transactions is most definitely amenity=atm. wikipedia is not the Bible nor the Coran, it is obvious that there are some flaws in this article, the first paragraph states: An *automated teller machine* or *automatic teller machine*[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Teller_Machine#cite_note-1[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Teller_Machine#cite_note-2[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Teller_Machine#cite_note-3 (*ATM*, American https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English, Australian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_English, Singaporean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singaporean_English, Indian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_English, and Hiberno-English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-English), also known as an *automated banking machine* (*ABM*, Canadian English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_English), *cash machine*, *cashpoint*, *cashline*, or colloquially *hole in the wall...* It mixes different (sub)-typologies into one article, clearly there are at least subtle differences between an ATM as given by the former definition and a cash machine (which is clearly about cash). If you look this up in the Oxford dictionary you get this definition: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/automated-teller-machine?q=Automated+teller+machine A machine that automatically provides cash and performs other banking services on insertion of a special card by the account holder. you can see there is no or but an and between cash and other banking services ;-) I understand that atm can be seen as broadly as incorporating all kind of automated telling even in the absence of actually emitting cash, but I would prefer to use a different tag for this and use atm for machines that actually do give you cash. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 5:36 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: What if it gave you paper money for Bitcoins? Would it be an ATM then? What if there's a shop that only works with bitcoins? Is it a shop? An ATM isn't a machine that gives you paper money, the term is broader than that. These semantic arguments are going to underly my broader point, later on in this email. I don't get how tagging something correctly is advertising. I'm not that stubborn, if people are against tagging Bitcoin ATMs as amenity=atm I'm fine with that. An alternative could be amenity=bitcoin_atm. Maybe there should be a vote. The core issue is two part: 1. The community process for tagging is one based on the understanding of regular person. Using dictionary definitions or quoting wikipedia is exactly why this is it's getting so much pushback. If you want to make some definition for a new type of machine that is a bitcoin machine- go ahead. Here's a suggestion for one: amenity=cryptocurrency_kiosk currencies=bitcoin;litecoin And your tagging problem is solved. 2. The bitcoin community has generally been skirting the rules Bitcoin mappers have been doing everything from copying other maps outright (violating copyright), to geocoding against Google and then placing that in OSM (violating copyright) to geocoding against nominatim and then using that (really bad quality data). A while back, when I would see suspicious Bitcoin data, I would try to contact the mapper and if it it was confirmed that it was bad- delete the data. Sometimes the users told me they didn't know anything about OSM, or OSM rules about what should or should not be on the map. Other were outright rude to me about it- saying that I was part of the banking conspiracy, etc. It's my experience, and the experience of many others, that the Bitcoin community overall (not everyone, but as a group) has been really uninterested in OSM as a whole, and has been just dumping things into the database in a way that is not only bad data, but is potentially dangerous for OSM (if there are copyright violations). I have a side project (which is currently on the back burner) which is able to show which Bitcoin data is highly suspicious of this kind of either copying or geocoding. I haven't deployed it yet, but I think if/when I do, it would show a very large percentage of Bitcoin data is either of low data quality or is copied or geocoded from another source. My conclusion (without having run the data) is based on limited data I've looked at, and Bitcoin mappers I've spoken with. I would like to see Bitcoin mappers to start collecting data like the rest of us- by hand and direct observation, then I think Bitcoin proposals would be less contentious. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
Maybe we could use a broader term that includes ATMs, like financial_kiosk or money_kiosk. I'm not saying we should deprecate amenity=atm, I'm saying amenity=financial_kiosk could be an umbrella term. amenity=financial_kiosk + cash_out:EUR=yes would be a classical ATM that dispenses Euros. Second way to tag them would be amenity=atm amenity=financial_kiosk + cash_in:BRL http://www.xe.com/currency/brl-brazilian-real=yes + currency:XBT=yes would be a bitcoin ATM that takes Brazil Reals and can manage your Bitcoins. amenity=financial_kiosk + cash_out:SYP http://www.xe.com/currency/brl-brazilian-real=yes + currency:XBT=yes would be a bitcoin ATM that manages your Bitcoins and gives you Syrian Pounds. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
2014-06-10 12:51 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: Maybe we could use a broader term that includes ATMs, like financial_kiosk or money_kiosk. I'm not saying we should deprecate amenity=atm, I'm saying amenity=financial_kiosk could be an umbrella term. amenity=financial_kiosk + cash_out:EUR=yes would be a classical ATM that dispenses Euros. Second way to tag them would be amenity=atm I don't think we should broaden the term and retag all atms we already collected with then 2 instead of 1 tag, instead we should invent new tags for stuff that is new. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
2014-06-10 12:35 GMT+02:00 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: 2. The bitcoin community has generally been skirting the rules Bitcoin mappers have been doing everything from copying other maps outright (violating copyright), to geocoding against Google and then placing that in OSM (violating copyright) to geocoding against nominatim and then using that (really bad quality data). I think this is a very good lesson for OSM. And I think the solution to the Bitcoin problem and similar problems in the future is to make specialized editors, something like http://wheelmap.org. Founder of coinmap.org could have taken the Id editor, and specialized it with only Bitcoin tags, and put a created_by=coinmap editor tag to all changesets. That would have made searching for Bitcoin editors easier, and by changing the coinmap editor we could steer those mappers. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
Am 10.06.2014 12:35, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: Bitcoin mappers have been doing everything from copying other maps outright (violating copyright), to geocoding against Google and then placing that in OSM (violating copyright) to geocoding against nominatim and then using that (really bad quality data). I would like to add spam: Nodes with tags for bitcoin acceptance and website, but nothing else: no address, no name, no office/shop or similar tag. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
I agree, introducing weird term instead of something obvious and widely used is bad idea. Especially doing this to keep happy small group of inexperienced editors. On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 05:40:01 -0700 Martin Koppenhoefer lt;dieterdre...@gmail.comgt; wrote 2014-06-10 12:51 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić lt;jan...@gmail.comgt;: Maybe we could use a broader term that includes ATMs, like financial_kiosk or money_kiosk. I'm not saying we should deprecate amenity=atm, I'm saying amenity=financial_kiosk could be an umbrella term. amenity=financial_kiosk + cash_out:EUR=yes would be a classical ATM that dispenses Euros. Second way to tag them would be amenity=atm I don't think we should broaden the term and retag all atms we already collected with then 2 instead of 1 tag, instead we should invent new tags for stuff that is new. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
2014-06-10 14:40 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: I don't think we should broaden the term and retag all atms we already collected with then 2 instead of 1 tag, instead we should invent new tags for stuff that is new. Then we agree, because I said practically the same thing :) Use amenity=atm for classic atms, and the new term (which can be seen as broader) for other entities. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 5:30 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-06-09 13:58 GMT+02:00 Henning Scholland o...@aighes.de: AFAIK most Bitcoin ATMs right now take real money and convert it to Bitcoins. Some can take Bitcoins and convert them to real money and give it to you. So I'm not sure why this wouldn't be called an ATM. Calling it anything else would be tagging for the renderer (we don't want it to show up on maps because it isn't a classical ATM) The *bitcoin* device is a *currency exchange terminal.* It's not an ATM at 99% of the world understands that term. An ATM is a device for interacting with a pre-established deposit account, perhaps though an interbank network. These are different functions. It's possible a device could both be an ATM as commonly understood, and a bitcoin currency exchange device. The tagging should keep these concepts separate, but allow them to be combined on a single node if appropriate. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
2014-06-10 19:28 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: The *bitcoin* device is a *currency exchange terminal.* Classic ATMs are also currency exchange terminals. If you have a bank account in one currency, and you dispense cash in a country with other currency, it exchanges them at some rate depending on the bank. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
On 06/10/2014 01:28 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: The *bitcoin* device is a *currency exchange terminal.* It's not an ATM at 99% of the world understands that term. An ATM is a device for interacting with a pre-established deposit account, perhaps though an interbank network. These are different functions. It's possible a device could both be an ATM as commonly understood, and a bitcoin currency exchange device. The tagging should keep these concepts separate, but allow them to be combined on a single node if appropriate. I agree with this. Note that we do have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbureau_de_change, which would not be compatible with ATM, as they are both values on amenity. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin ATM (amenity=atm | currency:XBT=yes)
On 10 June 2014 12:51, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe we could use a broader term that includes ATMs, like financial_kiosk or money_kiosk. I'm not saying we should deprecate amenity=atm, I'm saying amenity=financial_kiosk could be an umbrella term. To me those terms are too similar for it to make sense to have two tags. Better to use the established amenity=atm also for bitcoin atms and qualify it with currencies accepted and dispensed. A qualification that traditional atms also would benefit from having. /Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] RFC: Door Values
Hello list, I'm working with people with walking disabilities. We found it to be useful to map the door type of an entrance. There was the key 'door', but with very little documentation. So I created a Proposal Page for the values of the 'door' key: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/door RFC phase is now open! Please add further values, improve the draft page and correct my bad English ;-) Many thanks in advance for your feedbacks. Best Regards, Michael Maier -- Michael Maier, Student of Telematics @ Graz University of Technology OpenStreetMap Graz http://osm.org/go/0Iz@paV http://wiki.osm.org/Graz http://wiki.osm.org/Graz/Stammtisch signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC: Door Values
Am 10.06.2014 21:51, schrieb Michael Maier: Hi Michael I'm working with people with walking disabilities. We found it to be useful to map the door type of an entrance. There was the key 'door', but with very little documentation. There is a proposal [1] which was not accepted some years ago. So I created a Proposal Page for the values of the 'door' key: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/door RFC phase is now open! Please add further values, improve the draft page and correct my bad English ;-) Many thanks in advance for your feedbacks. I would not say that entrance=* implies door=yes. Did not find a word about it on the wiki page. Please, just leave them as to separate tags. I do not think that door=no is needed but that is only a minor issue. Myself does use barrier=door together with entrance=* though it is not documented either. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC: Door Values
Sorry, forgot the link Am 10.06.2014 22:34, schrieb fly: Am 10.06.2014 21:51, schrieb Michael Maier: Hi Michael I'm working with people with walking disabilities. We found it to be useful to map the door type of an entrance. There was the key 'door', but with very little documentation. There is a proposal [1] which was not accepted some years ago. So I created a Proposal Page for the values of the 'door' key: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/door RFC phase is now open! Please add further values, improve the draft page and correct my bad English ;-) Many thanks in advance for your feedbacks. I would not say that entrance=* implies door=yes. Did not find a word about it on the wiki page. Please, just leave them as to separate tags. I do not think that door=no is needed but that is only a minor issue. Myself does use barrier=door together with entrance=* though it is not documented either. Cheers fly [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/entrance/door ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC: Door Values
On 10.06.2014 21:51, Michael Maier wrote: There was the key 'door', but with very little documentation. So I created a Proposal Page for the values of the 'door' key: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/door Thanks for starting the proposal, having a tag for this would be valuable for various applications! There is some additional information that would be desirable: * The number of wings. For example, your image for hinged has two wings, but most hinged doors probably have only one. Could we tag this difference somehow? * For hinged, folding and sliding doors it might be interesting whether it opens to the left or to the right. * For hinged doors it might also be good to know whether the door opens inward, outward or both. If you would include tags for these details into your proposal, I might like it even more. ;) Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
