Re: [Tagging] No abbreviations in names edge case
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Expanding abbreviations grates a bit with the on the ground rule. Navigation applications as well as visual maps need to be able to reproduce what the human will see on the ground - often in a language they don't know. Sometimes the abbreviated version is more recognisable. There should IMHO be an explicit tag to hold the version as displayed on the signs for any case where the abbreviator could be confused. Well, in this case, mapping highway=traffic_sign and the appropriate ancillary tagging (name=*, etc) makes sense. Abbreviating the name for the way is obviously bad, especially since which signs abbreviate and which don't are frequently wildly different. And there's places where signs just aren't updated in any timely fashion to reflect the correct names. For example, OK 51 through Broken Arrow is signposted for the route as the 41st(?) Rainbow Division Memorial Highway, for the motorway segment within Broken Arrow city limits as Disabled American Veterans Memorial Expressway and for the motorway segment within Tulsa County east of the Paul Harvey Expressway as Broken Arrow Expressway. Once you get east of the BA city line, much of the signage at ramps still incorrectly identifies it as BA Expy, Broken Arrow Expy or, even dumber, Expy East/West. The signage doesn't actually reflect the real, spoken name on most cases through Broken Arrow. Granted, OklaDOT and it's completely inconsistent and outright often standards noncompliant (it's common to see Oklahoma state highways signed with the generic state route shield 20 years after we developed our own, or the wrong state's route shield entirely (usually a Texas route shield in this case)), if not flat out wrong (I've actually seen an Oregon state highway route shield used for a US highway in Oklahoma!) signage. Mapping the ground truth based on signage alone would mean some routes change networks 8-12 times per mile... Maybe we should distinguish between types of words: road types such as Avenue, Street -- limited set: these can probably be expanded reversibly They demonstrably can't. personal titles such as General, King -- limited set: these can mostly be expanded reversibly; in Dutch, Ingenieur has two possible abbreviations Ir. and Ing. depending on the granting University. Expanding them both to Ingenieur loses the distinction, and the abbreviator cannot make the right decision without having a list of names. I've personally strayed away from this, as exemplified in the Governor Joseph Turner Turnpike here. personal names such as Winston Churchill -- infinite set: these are often (but not always) abbreviated - how far do you go with the expansion? Should W. Churchillstraat be expanded to Winston Leonard Spencer Churchillstraat? Perhaps we should leave personal names as they are on the signs. I'd go with Winston Churchillstraat, personally. I tend to expand full names in Oklahoma mostly because full names are the norm for honorific locale names here. One extreme example: Officer Larry W. Cantrell and Mister Charles L. Cantrell Memorial Highway, for which the only reason middle initials even play into question is because I can't find the expansions for those, but they appear on the signage (though midpoint signage still incorrectly lists, alternatively, New Sapulpa Road, Sapulpa Road or US Highway 66), Sapulpa Road was never accurate for this way, as Frankoma Road was formerly Sapulpa Road, and is presently signed, in roughly equal frequency, Frankoma Road, Old Sapulpa Road, Sapulpa Road, and US Highway 66. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Reviewing the use of addr:housename
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:31 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps there's a call for a building name tag which may or may not be the addr:housename tag? I think that's called name=* Paul, if you'd read the actual instances of addr:housename that I provided earlier on this thread, then you'd have seen that the name field is already being used for the POI itself (as it should be). What we have in the United States are examples where people will put in the name of the structure, such as the mall that a store is in as the addr:housename. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pipeline bridges
This one of my pipeline bridges: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/132791265 https://www.google.com/maps/@45.292027,11.927267,3a,75y,153.47h,91.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sr2gRzPpcw10yML5dM5LgXQ!2e0 You see it from miles away. On 19 June 2014 06:47, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm going to dispute that claim and back it up with a recent news article and aerial view... can't recall if it's mapped in OSM yet, it's close enough to Lewis Avenue that I honestly didn't notice it driving until I got detoured around it earlier this month. http://www.newson6.com/story/25713388/interstate-244-near-lewis-shut-down http://maps.google.com/?q=36.160647,-95.957975hl=engl=us On Jun 18, 2014 5:13 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I expect that it would be [man_made=pipeline, location=overground, bridge=yes, layer=*]. +1 -1 I would expect bridge=yes to be combined with highways only. Here nobody can walk/drive on the pipe. We don't call it a bridge. location=overground is enough. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pipeline bridges
If we consider aqueducts http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/176520234#map=18/44.45802/8.97848 http://www.acquedottogenova.altervista.org/images/01-primo%20itinerario/46_sifone%20geirato.jpg http://www.oruko.altervista.org/images/curiosita-ponti/11b-sifone%20geirato.jpg Otherwise here's a bridge/gas pipeline https://www.google.com/maps/@44.434533,8.961157,3a,49.2y,174h,90.72t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1suvazafJHL3TJQ8kTGRRVwQ!2e0?hl=en On OSM it's not tagged as pipeline http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/5625784 Regards, Stefano 2014-06-19 10:33 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com: This one of my pipeline bridges: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/132791265 https://www.google.com/maps/@45.292027,11.927267,3a,75y,153.47h,91.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sr2gRzPpcw10yML5dM5LgXQ!2e0 You see it from miles away. On 19 June 2014 06:47, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm going to dispute that claim and back it up with a recent news article and aerial view... can't recall if it's mapped in OSM yet, it's close enough to Lewis Avenue that I honestly didn't notice it driving until I got detoured around it earlier this month. http://www.newson6.com/story/25713388/interstate-244-near-lewis-shut-down http://maps.google.com/?q=36.160647,-95.957975hl=engl=us On Jun 18, 2014 5:13 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I expect that it would be [man_made=pipeline, location=overground, bridge=yes, layer=*]. +1 -1 I would expect bridge=yes to be combined with highways only. Here nobody can walk/drive on the pipe. We don't call it a bridge. location=overground is enough. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Reviewing the use of addr:housename
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: Paul, if you'd read the actual instances of addr:housename that I provided earlier on this thread, then you'd have seen that the name field is already being used for the POI itself (as it should be). But this is a mistake. addr:housename has not been created to replace name, operator, brand or addr:housenumber. As the wiki says, it has been created for houses without numbers and designated by a name. If you build an address for a POI, you need all tags addr:* plus the POI name. We don't have to duplicate the POI name into addr:housename. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Reviewing the use of addr:housename
2014-06-19 10:14 GMT+02:00 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: Paul, if you'd read the actual instances of addr:housename that I provided earlier on this thread, then you'd have seen that the name field is already being used for the POI itself (as it should be). -1, the name is the name of the tagged feature, if there is a building with a POI in it and you want to do it cleanly, you should seperate the two into different objects (a building and a POI in it) so you can give each of them their name unambigously. If you have a building without a name you can also lazily mix them up, but I'd always see this as an interim solution, because there will probably be more properties which will (when more detail is tagged) have to be associated just to one of the two, e.g. start_date, wikipedia, operator, ... cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Emergency Access
On 2014-06-19 01:49, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote : Am 19/giu/2014 um 00:38 schrieb André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: To exclude all other vehicles, one must add (see key=access category tree http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#Land-based_transportation) access=n with access=no you exclude everybody (also pedestrians, etc), to exclude vehicles use vehicle=no That's right, exclude all other vehicles as I say but also the rest. That's why, much like you, I was continuing with: Or, to exclude just motor vehicles: motor_vehicle=no That's allowing bicycles too if that's wanted. But that's not the end. You will probably want to exclude the now allowed: motor_vehicle=no carriage=no trailer=no ski=no inline_skates=no ice_skates=no horse=no And OSM does not support men leading animals of the Belgian code, especially important for elephants ;-) So, the simplest after all is probably what you want of: access=no emergency=yes foot=yes bicycle=yes Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Emergency Access
Am 19/giu/2014 um 13:18 schrieb André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: So, the simplest after all is probably what you want of: access=no emergency=yes foot=yes bicycle=yes I would use vehicle=no instead of access=no to avoid excluding too much by accident. Also makes foot=yes obsolete. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] No abbreviations in names edge case
Am 19/giu/2014 um 08:54 schrieb Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: There should IMHO be an explicit tag to hold the version as displayed on the signs for any case where the abbreviator could be confused. +1, also useful for cases where the name on the sign is misspelled. For abbreviated versions you might (?) also use the tag short_name. there are 13 name:signposted in the db, not sure if there are more established alternatives... cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] No abbreviations in names edge case
there are 13 name:signposted in the db, not sure if there are more established alternatives... I don't think we should use this key, since it clashes with the usage of the key name for other languages (i.e. name:lg ). Something like name_signposted would be okay though. BTW there are some objects with the key name:abbreviation, which also clashes, is not standard and IMO can be safely changed to the key short_name . 2014-06-19 11:44 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 19/giu/2014 um 08:54 schrieb Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: There should IMHO be an explicit tag to hold the version as displayed on the signs for any case where the abbreviator could be confused. +1, also useful for cases where the name on the sign is misspelled. For abbreviated versions you might (?) also use the tag short_name. there are 13 name:signposted in the db, not sure if there are more established alternatives... cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] No abbreviations in names edge case
Am 19.06.2014 16:59, schrieb John Packer: there are 13 name:signposted in the db, not sure if there are more established alternatives... I don't think we should use this key, since it clashes with the usage of the key name for other languages (i.e. name:lg ). Something like name_signposted would be okay though. signposted_name would be more consistent with existing keys like old_name, short_name and so on, so I would prefer it that way. But I like the idea of having a key for the signposted spelling available. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] No abbreviations in names edge case
But I like the idea of having a key for the signposted spelling available. Of course I could bring up the fact that FDR Drive in NYC is spelled FDR Drive and F.D.R. Drive, and F D R Drive, depending on which sign you look at. :) - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
