Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Steve Doerr]

On 20/01/2016 23:12, Dave Swarthout wrote:
A waste transfer station is a different operation from this one, which 
is a place to store used parts for the long-term until someone buys 
them. The things stored therein are not waste but resellable parts. If 
I want a tail-light lens for a 1975 Ford, for example, the best place, 
often the only place, to get it would be at a junkyard/scrapyard.




Commonly called a 'breaker's yard' here in the UK - the other terms are 
equally comprehensible though.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Dave Swarthout]

A waste transfer station is a different operation from this one, which is a
place to store used parts for the long-term until someone buys them. The
things stored therein are not waste but resellable parts. If I want a
tail-light lens for a 1975 Ford, for example, the best place, often the
only place, to get it would be at a junkyard/scrapyard.

Thanks for the input. I've got some good ideas now. I now agree that adding
the tags for shop=car_parts and second_hand=only would help describe this
particular type of scrapyard quite nicely.

Cheers,
Dave

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On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 3:46 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21/01/2016 4:31 AM, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
> On 20/01/2016 17:19, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>
> On 20 January 2016 at 02:03, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm trying to decide how to tag what we in the U.S. refer to as junkyards.
>>
>
> ...
>>
>> Would amenity=waste_transfer_station be an option? See
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
> . Perhaps this makes more sense for scrapyards that make most of their
> money from selling the iron used in cars.
>
>
> I'd have thought that a "waste transfer station" was something else?
> Scrapyards round here tend to major not so much in selling iron but in car
> parts (though obviously that'll vary with commodity prices and local
> area).  I think I've seen at least one "waste transfer station" somewhere
> in the county though what that's tagged as I wouldn't like to say.   It
> didn't look very scrapyardish (though I can see how there might be overlap
> of edge cases).
>
>
> I too think of a 'waste transfer station' as something else. They don't
> store stuff for long - moving it on fairly quickly. Say less than a week.
>
> A 'junkard' would usually have things stored for quite some time. Save
> over a year. They sell the individual parts to people who want those parts
> for use rather than scrapping them. What ever parts that are not wanted ..
> those go to the recyclers.
>
> 
> A 'junkard' can be for cars, trucks, motorcycles, earth movers, aeroplanes
> ... I think that needs to be specified.
>
> They go by various names depending on where you are .. 'boneyeard',
> 'wreckers' ...
>
> for example I'd tag them;
> landuse=industrial
> industrial=car_wreckers
> shop=car_parts
> car_parts:secondhand=ford;gmc
>
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>


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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[Hakuch]

I just want to mention again: this proposal is about the wiki, that
name_1 and alt_name_1 should not be suggested there for good tagging.
Its not about the existing data in OSM.

On 20.01.2016 23:35, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
> On 20/01/2016, Mike N  wrote:
>> On 1/20/2016 3:39 PM, Dominic Coletti wrote:
>>> I see 808,000 uses of name_1 and 65,000 of name_2.
> 
> And 609,505 alt_name and 6,013 alt_name_1.
> 
> These approximate figues have already been mentioned in this thread.
> Does Anybody have stats on how many "*name*" tags have values with
> semicolons ? Bonus points for pointing out cases of litteral ";" in
> the name.
> 
>> Many of these are from the US TIGER import, and must not be
>> automatically removed.  They would go into alt_name , etc based on local
>> knowledge.
> 
> Appart from using this as a cunning way to track which TIGER names
> have been reviewed, there's IMHO no good reason to convert an existing
> "name_1" to "alt_name".
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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 20/01/2016, Mike N  wrote:
> On 1/20/2016 3:39 PM, Dominic Coletti wrote:
>> I see 808,000 uses of name_1 and 65,000 of name_2.

And 609,505 alt_name and 6,013 alt_name_1.

These approximate figues have already been mentioned in this thread.
Does Anybody have stats on how many "*name*" tags have values with
semicolons ? Bonus points for pointing out cases of litteral ";" in
the name.

> Many of these are from the US TIGER import, and must not be
> automatically removed.  They would go into alt_name , etc based on local
> knowledge.

Appart from using this as a cunning way to track which TIGER names
have been reviewed, there's IMHO no good reason to convert an existing
"name_1" to "alt_name".

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Re: [Tagging] Please don't think name_1 tags are errors.

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 17/01/2016, Hakuch  wrote:
> for me the use of alt_name_1 is more logical than the name_1, because
> alt_name is the meaning of name_1! So, if you have a second name and you
> dont know where to put it (loc_name, old_name...) you can use alt_name.
> And if you have a third name you SHOULD use alt_name:name2;name3 but in
> a bad manor you can use alt_name_1=name2, alt_name_2=name3. But name_1
> doesn't make any sense.

Well "alt_foo" and "foo_1" both mean "here's another value for foo".
So "alt_foo_1" expand to something like "here's another another value
for foo". "alt_" and "_1" are two ways of saying "another", and
juxtaposing two "adverbs" with the same meaning is superfluous and
grammatically akward. To use another analogy, it's like talking about
the "TCP protocol" or the "MIT institude of technology".

And because "_1" naturally naturally brings "_2" and so on (while
"alt_" doesn't naturally bring any followup), it makes sense to give
up on "alt_" altogether. It doesn't bring any benefit compared to "_1"
(but "loc_", "old_" and others are still ok because they carry a
different meaning).

Concerning your suggestion to use "name=n1 alt_name=n2;n3", let me
rethorically wonder why you didn't suggest "name=n1;n2;n3" ? I expect
it is because the risk of semicolons in the "name" tag catching some
consumers unaware. Well, that risk of catching consumers unaware is
pretty much the same with semicolons in "name" as in "alt_name".

So when are semicolons a reasonable way to specify multiple values ?
IMHO whenever the values are fixed or sanitizable (unlike for example
"name", which the mapper has no control over), and empty fields don't
make sense. There are actually quite few of them that wouldn't benefit
from a more elaborate mapping or tagging scheme. "Sport" and "ref" are
likely fine, but I'd rather leave the fun of determining which keys
are semicolon-safe as an exercise to future generations of mappers and
consumers. Myself, I'd rather use foo_1 everywhere and stop worrying.


Obligatory xkcd quote: https://xkcd.com/327/

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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[Wolfgang Zenker]

* Mike N  [160120 21:47]:
> On 1/20/2016 3:39 PM, Dominic Coletti wrote:
>> I see 808,000 uses of name_1 and 65,000 of name_2.

> Many of these are from the US TIGER import, and must not be 
> automatically removed.  They would go into alt_name , etc based on local 
> knowledge.

The problem with that is that TIGER just gives several names for
a way segment without prioritizing them. Sometimes you can identify
some as mis-spellings but in most cases it is impossible to decide
from TIGER data alone which name should be in the name tag and
which one should be somewhere else. Hence the name_x tags with name
and name_x which are for any x presumed equally important.

That could of course be fixed with local knowledge, because many
of these multiple names are simply wrong. We just don't know which
ones, and for most of the rural parts of the US we don't have any
local mappers (yet).

Wolfgang

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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[Mike N]

On 1/20/2016 3:39 PM, Dominic Coletti wrote:

I see 808,000 uses of name_1 and 65,000 of name_2.


Many of these are from the US TIGER import, and must not be 
automatically removed.  They would go into alt_name , etc based on local 
knowledge.



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Warin]

On 21/01/2016 4:31 AM, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 20/01/2016 17:19, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
On 20 January 2016 at 02:03, Dave Swarthout > wrote:



I'm trying to decide how to tag what we in the U.S. refer to as
junkyards.




...

Would amenity=waste_transfer_station be an option? See 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station 
. Perhaps this makes more sense for scrapyards that make most of 
their money from selling the iron used in cars.


I'd have thought that a "waste transfer station" was something else?  
Scrapyards round here tend to major not so much in selling iron but in 
car parts (though obviously that'll vary with commodity prices and 
local area).  I think I've seen at least one "waste transfer station" 
somewhere in the county though what that's tagged as I wouldn't like 
to say.   It didn't look very scrapyardish (though I can see how there 
might be overlap of edge cases).




I too think of a 'waste transfer station' as something else. They don't 
store stuff for long - moving it on fairly quickly. Say less than a week.


A 'junkard' would usually have things stored for quite some time. Save 
over a year. They sell the individual parts to people who want those 
parts for use rather than scrapping them. What ever parts that are not 
wanted .. those go to the recyclers.



A 'junkard' can be for cars, trucks, motorcycles, earth movers, 
aeroplanes ... I think that needs to be specified.


They go by various names depending on where you are .. 'boneyeard', 
'wreckers' ...


for example I'd tag them;
landuse=industrial
industrial=car_wreckers
shop=car_parts
car_parts:secondhand=ford;gmc
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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[Dominic Coletti]

I see 808,000 uses of name_1 and 65,000 of name_2.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:07 AM moltonel 3x Combo 
wrote:

> On 19/01/2016, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> > It's not used by anyone as far as I can see:
> >
> > http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=%3B%3B
> >
> > (unless taginfo is doing some special filtering)
>
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=%3B (a single ";") doesn't
> find any value either, so taginfo can't be used like that.
>
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Cary, NC 27513
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Tod Fitch]

> On Jan 20, 2016, at 9:19 AM, Matthijs Melissen  
> wrote:
> 
> On 20 January 2016 at 02:03, Dave Swarthout  > wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to decide how to tag what we in the U.S. refer to as junkyards. 
> Mostly these are where old automobiles go when they are discarded and are a 
> source of used parts. They are therefore an amenity of considerable value, at 
> least to some people. In other countries they might be called scrapyards (or 
> perhaps salvage_yards or even some variation on automobile_salvage) so I'm 
> looking for input from our little world-spanning community of expert taggers.
> 
> Would amenity=waste_transfer_station be an option? See 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station 
>  . 
> Perhaps this makes more sense for scrapyards that make most of their money 
> from selling the iron used in cars.

The three places I know of that are officially called “waste transfer stations” 
are relatively small facilities where rubbish is collected for short term 
storage and then trucked off for final disposal (or possibly recycling) 
elsewhere. I don’t think that the ones I’ve looked at have enough space for 
more than a day or two of storage and suspect that everything deposited there 
is removed within a day.

This is quite different than a scrap or salvage yard where it may be months or 
years before things are disassembled for parts sales or crushed, etc.

So I am not sure how a junkyard should be tagged but am pretty sure that “waste 
transfer station” ought not be confused with it.



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Andy Townsend]

On 20/01/2016 17:19, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
On 20 January 2016 at 02:03, Dave Swarthout > wrote:



I'm trying to decide how to tag what we in the U.S. refer to as
junkyards.




...

Would amenity=waste_transfer_station be an option? See 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station 
. Perhaps this makes more sense for scrapyards that make most of their 
money from selling the iron used in cars.


I'd have thought that a "waste transfer station" was something else?  
Scrapyards round here tend to major not so much in selling iron but in 
car parts (though obviously that'll vary with commodity prices and local 
area).  I think I've seen at least one "waste transfer station" 
somewhere in the county though what that's tagged as I wouldn't like to 
say.   It didn't look very scrapyardish (though I can see how there 
might be overlap of edge cases).


Cheers,

Andy

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 20 January 2016 at 02:03, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

>
> I'm trying to decide how to tag what we in the U.S. refer to as junkyards.
> Mostly these are where old automobiles go when they are discarded and are a
> source of used parts. They are therefore an amenity of considerable value,
> at least to some people. In other countries they might be called scrapyards
> (or perhaps salvage_yards or even some variation on automobile_salvage) so
> I'm looking for input from our little world-spanning community of expert
> taggers.
>
> Would amenity=waste_transfer_station be an option? See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station .
Perhaps this makes more sense for scrapyards that make most of their money
from selling the iron used in cars.

-- Matthijs
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[Tagging] key:priority

[Paul Johnson]

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:priority

Would there be any major objection to expanding the priority key to include
two way, multilane situations?  Example would be a two way street that was
formerly a one-way street, and has signal timings as if it were a one-way
street (thus the green wave turns into the red crawl if you're going the
direction opposite the de-facto priority).
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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 19/01/2016, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> It's not used by anyone as far as I can see:
>
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=%3B%3B
>
> (unless taginfo is doing some special filtering)

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=%3B (a single ";") doesn't
find any value either, so taginfo can't be used like that.

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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[Dave F.]

On 20/01/2016 09:01, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


Power users might switch on the data layer on osm.org  
and look at the data directly


I hardly describe the data layer as 'direct' viewing. It offers the same 
information, in the same format, as looking at a node/way individually: 
No Ks or Vs, & no XML formatting.


Dave F.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Dave Swarthout]

taginfo suggests "amenity=scrapyard" actually (60, as opposed to 20
industrial=scrap_yard).

 I like that one. I must have missed it on my brief gander at Taginfo :-0

How then to add tags for the "stuff" stored there - cars, metals, building
materials, etc. ?

scrap=cars
scrap=metal ??

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On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2016-01-20 12:05 GMT+01:00 Andy Townsend :
>
>> taginfo suggests "amenity=scrapyard" actually (60, as opposed to 20
>> industrial=scrap_yard).
>
>
>
> +1, if you don't like man_made, make it amenity. Any subtags for the kind
> of stuff (ships, cars, machinery, ...)?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Please don't think name_1 tags are errors.

[Dave F.]

On 20/01/2016 05:30, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Ralph Aytoun 
mailto:ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com>> wrote:



New mappers have a lot to learn. They have enough of a problem
just learning how to use the tools and finding out what basic
tagging is without being inundated with error messages telling
them they cannot save their work because of some technical fault.
Let them save their work rather than it getting lost or they get
so frustrated that they give up and walk away.


An error condition is a perfect "teaching moment" where iD could 
explain tagging convention (rather than hiding it).



+1

Amending existing tags is a major part of OSM editing & not something 
that should be swept under the carpet.


Dave F.


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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[Hakuch]

however, everything depends on the key definition, in opening_hours for
example you use || as "or". Thats ok because that key does not expect
parameters, lane=* does

On 20.01.2016 15:05, Hakuch wrote:
> On 20.01.2016 08:30, Colin Smale wrote:
>> If the "semicolon
>> syntax" defines a "list of values", shouldn't stuff remove an empty
>> value from the list (i.e. replace ;; with ; ) and then remove the whole
>> tag if the list is empty? 
> 
> no, because in this context (semicolons) the ;;  should't be recognized
> as empty value but as an escaped semicolon. There is no sense for empty
> values in this context.
> 
> Differently from the use of | pipes:
> key=|| would mean: param1=empty, param2=empty
> key=|50| would mean: param1=empty, param2=50, param3=empty
> 
> and this empty COULD be identified as "use default value XX for this
> param", but that must be defined somehow (wiki...) for this specific
> key. You even could define "there must not be any empty values", then
> this tags would be invalid.
> 
> by the way, this topic has lost the connection to the proposal
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[Hakuch]

On 20.01.2016 08:30, Colin Smale wrote:
> If the "semicolon
> syntax" defines a "list of values", shouldn't stuff remove an empty
> value from the list (i.e. replace ;; with ; ) and then remove the whole
> tag if the list is empty? 

no, because in this context (semicolons) the ;;  should't be recognized
as empty value but as an escaped semicolon. There is no sense for empty
values in this context.

Differently from the use of | pipes:
key=|| would mean: param1=empty, param2=empty
key=|50| would mean: param1=empty, param2=50, param3=empty

and this empty COULD be identified as "use default value XX for this
param", but that must be defined somehow (wiki...) for this specific
key. You even could define "there must not be any empty values", then
this tags would be invalid.

by the way, this topic has lost the connection to the proposal


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-01-20 12:05 GMT+01:00 Andy Townsend :

> taginfo suggests "amenity=scrapyard" actually (60, as opposed to 20
> industrial=scrap_yard).



+1, if you don't like man_made, make it amenity. Any subtags for the kind
of stuff (ships, cars, machinery, ...)?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] parking for motorcycles AND bicycles

[Anders Fougner]

We already have something similar in
amenity=parking
hiking=yes
ski=yes
in order to indicate that a parking is mostly used for people who go 
hiking and/or skiing.

I.e. not for parking of boots and skis...

In other words, if you use bicycle=yes it may not be obvious whether it is:
* a bicycle parking
*a place to park your car when you e.g. come to a "bike park". Which, 
BTW, is not a place to park anything: 
https://s3.amazonaws.com/tgr_prod/valmontpana.jpg


Anders

--
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+47 97158863

Sent from my Commodore 64

Den 20.01.2016 11.52, skrev Volker Schmidt:

We have:
amenity=parking (which assumes cars as vehicles)
amenity=motorcycle_parking
amenity=bicycle_parking
We are apparently lacking a proper tag for mixed bicycle and 
motorbicycle parking.


What about
amenity=parking
motorcar=no
motorcycle=yes
bicycle=yes
?


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Andy Townsend]

On 20/01/2016 09:16, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2016-01-20 2:03 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout >:


After consulting Taginfo I've come up with these two tags for now:
landuse=industrial
industrial=scrap_yard

Opinions, suggestions?




I'd prefer a "feature" tag, rather than a refinement of the landus 
attribute.

What about man_made=scrap_yard?



taginfo suggests "amenity=scrapyard" actually (60, as opposed to 20 
industrial=scrap_yard).


Cheers,

Andy

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[Tagging] parking for motorcycles AND bicycles

[Volker Schmidt]

We have:
amenity=parking (which assumes cars as vehicles)
amenity=motorcycle_parking
amenity=bicycle_parking
We are apparently lacking a proper tag for mixed bicycle and motorbicycle
parking.

What about
amenity=parking
motorcar=no
motorcycle=yes
bicycle=yes
?
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-01-20 2:03 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout :

> After consulting Taginfo I've come up with these two tags for now:
> landuse=industrial
> industrial=scrap_yard
>
> Opinions, suggestions?
>



I'd prefer a "feature" tag, rather than a refinement of the landus
attribute.
What about man_made=scrap_yard?

Not sure if it could also be considered a kind of works, e.g. we might see
it as kind of a recycling plant?
Shall we distinguish places which only do cars? We could also add a tag
combination of
shop=car_parts and
second_hand=only ?  --> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:second_hand

Other scrap yards might generally buy and sell all kinds of old machinery /
scrap metal.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-01-20 8:30 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> Yes I'm sure... Notice I put the word "direct" in there. No "end user" of
> the data will use the data directly, there is always a presentation layer
> in the middle, which formats up numbers and dates, converts units,
> localises key words, etc etc.



it really depends on the end user. Power users might switch on the data
layer on osm.org and look at the data directly (to people familiar with our
tagging I'd actually recommend to do so, would be nice if more applications
did actually offer this possibility). I agree though that most end users
won't.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki

[Colin Smale]

Exactly. 

If a missing value (i.e. use the default) is not the same as explicitly
having NO value, how do you override the default with "no value"?

--colin 

On 2016-01-20 08:50, Gerd Petermann wrote:

> I don't think that the meaning really depends on the position. My 
> understanding is that the 
> 
> complete value (e.g. "80||" ) is parsed by splitting it into separate strings 
> at each pipe symbol. 
> 
> Result: three strings: "80" , "","" 
> 
> The value "|80|" also gives three strings: "","80","" 
> 
> Another point is that an empty value means "use the default", which can 
> 
> only make sense in special cases  like this. 
> 
> Gerd 
> 
> -
> 
> VON: Colin Smale 
> GESENDET: Mittwoch, 20. Januar 2016 08:23
> AN: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> BETREFF: Re: [Tagging] Removing name_1 and alt_name_1 from Wiki 
> 
> I meant that there is a value missing "between the pipes", which at a 
> slightly higher semantic level can mean "use the default". A definition which 
> varies according to position doesn't feel well-formed to me.
> 
> //colin 
> 
> On 2016-01-20 08:10, Gerd Petermann wrote: 
> Colin Smale wrote The "lanes" tag family uses a different delimiter ("|"), 
> sometimes
> together with a semicolon to make a kind of 2-d array. A double pipe
> ("||") indicates a missing value there. Wouldn't it be nice if we were
> consistent? 
> That is new to me. My understanding of a double pipe is that described here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lanes_General_Extension#Default_values
>  
> 
> Proposed features/lanes General Extension - OpenStreetMap Wiki [1] 
> wiki.openstreetmap.org 
> A simple, straightforward extension of existing tags to specify properties 
> not only for a way as whole but for the lanes of the way instead. Based on 
> this general ... 
> 
> which indicates that a double pipe means one or two default values,
> depending on the position.
> At the end of the value, it means two default values.
> 
> Gerd
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Removing-name-1-and-alt-name-1-from-Wiki-tp5864465p5865207.html
>  [2]
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Links:
--
[1]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lanes_General_Extension#Default_values
[2]
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Removing-name-1-and-alt-name-1-from-Wiki-tp5864465p5865207.html___
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