Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 02일 04:16, Warin wrote:
> No. OSM amenity - important facilities.

LOL. you mean important facilities like
bar, bbq, biergarten, ice_cream, brothel, casino, cinema, gambling,
nightclub, stripclub, swingerclub, dojo, game_feeding,

> Tourism is the correct key in this instance, a place that provides 
> visual pleasure.

Hm. could probably be said about a stripclub too.
As an artist, I must say that when I go to a museum or gallery it is
mostly work.
For almost anyone I know it is too. I don't think many people of the
typical gallery visitors would agree with "tourism". Investment,
research, inspiration, socializing, networking, business, scouting would
all fit just as well - or better - as tourism does.

m.




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 02일 04:16, Warin wrote:
>> However, the English word "Gallery" doesn't seem to have this specific
>> meaning. Merriam-Webster includes "sculptures, etc"
>> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gallery
> 
> Picking nits;
> Merriam-Webster is American English.
> OSM policy is to use British English ... so the Oxford Dictionary should
> be used.

Right.

https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gallery
https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/museum

Gallery: A room or building for the display or sale of works of art: an
art gallery the National Gallery

Museum: A building in which objects of historical, scientific, artistic,
or cultural interest are stored and exhibited: [as name]: the Museum of
Modern Art

Also the British English is contradicting the use in OSM and the
definition in the OSM wiki where museum is non-art only and Gallery is a
Museum for art. That seems completely made up. Thanks Matthijs for
bringing this conversation up. Now how do we fix it?

M.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.02.2016 um 19:36 schrieb Max :
> https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gallery
> 
> Gallery: A room or building for the display or sale of works of art: an
> art gallery the National Gallery


both, the two examples above, as the first two  examples on the link, clearly 
show that the word gallery has multiple meanings:

Many galleries display the art prints without prices - hoping to get more 
easily into an e-mail contact with their visitors.
The new renaissance and baroque galleries at the Waiters Art Museum, Baltimore, 
include rooms that resemble those of a seventeenth-century Dutch nobleman.


how do you propose we should deal with this? Use the same tag for both kinds of 
gallery? use it only for one type and use another tag for the other type 
(which?)


> 
> Also the British English is contradicting the use in OSM and the
> definition in the OSM wiki where museum is non-art only and Gallery is a
> Museum for art.


yes, while tags are not entirely the same thing as is natural language, they 
tend to be used in a way that is deducted from the meaning of the words. Trying 
to establish definitions that go against the actual meaning of the words will 
not work.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Warin]

On 2/02/2016 8:06 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


Am 02.02.2016 um 05:31 schrieb Greg Troxel :

Another type of exhibit venue is a room in a local library that
typically doesn't charge the artist or get involved in sales (the artist
puts up contact information); it's just free exhibit space for the sake
of having more art on display and supporting artists (who are viewed as
worthy of government charity).


in this case I'd prefer to use a main tag for the room (either area or node), 
amenity=exhibition_space (i.e. you locate it inside the bigger structure that 
contains it)



In this example the main function is a library. Any wall space within the 
library can then be used to display art. The 'exhibition space' is scattered .. 
not a simple single area.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 02일 20:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> both, the two examples above, as the first two  examples on the link,
> clearly show that the word gallery has multiple meanings:
> 
>   * Many galleries display the art prints without prices - hoping to get
> more easily into an e-mail contact with their visitors.
>   * The new renaissance and baroque galleries at the Waiters Art Museum,
> Baltimore, include rooms that resemble those of a
> seventeenth-century Dutch nobleman.

I can understand where the confusion is coming from, but it is actually
not really hard to distinguish.

The art gallery is an important part of the art business. There is the
gallerist whose job it is to find promising artists to invest in. The
gallerist works with the artist to promote the artist and is selling the
artworks of the artist. Usually the gallerist has a contract with the
artist that grants the gallerist the right to represent this artist for
a country or continent.

For the layman it might be confusing that there are museums which also
call some of their rooms a gallery, or even the whole museum is called
gallery. This however is just because in this context gallery is used as
a synonym for exhibition space. Here it is more the architectural sense
of the word gallery, just like it can be used for things that are
balcony like.

If an artist says something like: "Next month I'll show my work in a
gallery in Paris" you can safely assume that the art gallery of the
first kind is what is referred to.

Sure, in a seruous gallery you will not find pricetags on the works. If
you do see them, that's a sign it might be just what is described as
shop=art in the wiki. Why? because the gallery will either have a
separate sheet of paper with the prices and the list of works, or the
gallerist prefers to negociate individually with the clients.

So your examples are not confusing at all. That there is no price tag,
is no indicator that it is a museum.
The second example is clearly using the word gallery in the
architectural or exhibition space sense, but that doesn't make it an art
gallery. It's a museum (which has some thematic rooms/exhibition spaces
a.k.a. "galleries").

Does it make sense?

Max




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[althio]

How about...
- tourism = museum
- shop = artwork
- shop = *

In more details:

For museums, including art museums (collection of works):
tourism = museum
+ museum = art / railway / history / ...
+ art = painting / photography / ...
[no tourism = gallery]

For galleries (showing art works, with exhibition and sales):
shop = artwork
+ artwork = painting / photography / ...
(note: we have also tourism = artwork for public pieces of art, not for
sale)

For "art shops":
shop = interior_decoration / furniture / carpet / antiques / ...

- althio
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

Am 02.02.2016 um 04:16 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

>>> 2 problems with tourism=gallery: it is not clear, which kind of gallery
>>> is intended,
> 
> Many many key/values are not precise in what is intended. That is why 'sub 
> keys' are used.
> 'Sub keys' like width, height add detail. If you think a gallery needs more 
> detail, add sub keys to it!


no, I think there are lots of meanings for the word "gallery", ranging from 
architecture over mining,  to kind of museum to private exhibition spaces that 
are part of the contemporary art discourse. The latter 2 are IMHO different 
enough to not put them under the same main tag.



> 
>>>  and either way "tourism" is not a nice key for these
>>> (neither is it for museums).
> 
> A 'nice key'?
> 
> Tourism? Visiting a place for pleasure? Looks to be the correct key to me!


it's rather constricting, to me museums are not in the first place a kind of 
leisure institution but more for heritage and education. 


> 
>> What would be a proper way to tag this?
>> 
>> 
>> amenity=museum
>> museum=art
>> 
>> 
>> ?
> 
> No. OSM amenity - important facilities.
> 


IMHO museums are important facilities.


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Steve Doerr]

On 01/02/2016 22:15, Dave F wrote:


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/museum#Noun




See also this definition and note in the OED under 'museum':

'2. a. A building or institution in which objects of historical, 
scientific, artistic, or cultural interest are preserved and exhibited. 
Also: the collection of objects held by such an institution.


'Although a museum may include a library or art gallery, the word is not 
(in British use) normally applied to an institution in which either of 
these is the sole or most prominent feature. However, in continental 
Europe the corresponding word is often used to denote an art collection, 
and when so used is usually rendered museum in English (cf. musée n. 
). Similarly, in the 
United States, museum is sometimes used for art museum'.


It seems to me that the wiki was attempting to preserve the British 
English distinction between a museum and a gallery, and the latest 
changes have moved it in the direction of American and European usage.


--
Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.02.2016 um 05:31 schrieb Greg Troxel :
> 
> Finally, there's a fourth entity, sort of, venues that are something
> else but also exhibit art.  This happens both commerically an
> non-commercially.
> 
> There is a restaurant near me that has a different artist each month,
> with the artist selecting works and hanging them.  


+1, good point 
I d make this an attribute and not change the main tag for the venue in this 
case. S.th. like shows_art=yes (but is opening a can of worms: what is "true 
art", and what is the simulation of art).

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.02.2016 um 05:31 schrieb Greg Troxel :
> 
> Another type of exhibit venue is a room in a local library that
> typically doesn't charge the artist or get involved in sales (the artist
> puts up contact information); it's just free exhibit space for the sake
> of having more art on display and supporting artists (who are viewed as
> worthy of government charity).


in this case I'd prefer to use a main tag for the room (either area or node), 
amenity=exhibition_space (i.e. you locate it inside the bigger structure that 
contains it)

cheers,
Martin 
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[Tagging] Inconsistent road refs

[Paul Norman]

There is a stretch of local highway which used to be signed with a ref, 
but no longer is. On the other hand, most of the intersecting roads 
still show that this highway has the old ref. Some other parts of the 
road remain signed.


The two options for tagging seem to be ref=123 or old_ref=123.

Thoughts?

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