[Tagging] More no_u_turn

[Nick Hocking]

A car travelling westbound on an undivided road is about to cross a
north/south divided road at traffic lights.

We wish to prevent the car from doing a U-turn at this intersection.
Do we have to put in  two no_u_turn restrictions, one for each of the
north/south carriageways.

If we only need one, where do we tag this - on the left carriageway or
the right one?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (midwife)

[David Picard]

Hi,

I removed over specific text about the country. The description of 
services does not exclude anything (like give birth).


Cheers.


Le 26/08/2016 00:44, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :



sent from a phone


Il giorno 25 ago 2016, alle ore 22:46, David Picard  ha 
scritto:

So, my description is too specific ? What if I just drop the following sentence 
? It is not really meaningful, anyway.
"In some countries, like France, a midwife is a profession on its own, not a 
specialized nurse like e.g. in the U.S.".



yes, remove anything not needed. Examples often are counterproductive, because 
people tend to generalize them, and in this case it doesn't really matter for 
osm mapping whether your country sees them as specialized nurses or as a 
profession on its own, how much they earn or how long you have to study etc. 
You will tag a midwife (s office? practice?) when they can be considered 
midwifes according to the situation in your country.




Also, about rendering : here in France, midwives in hospitals/clinics usually 
wear a pink suit. So, I guess the doctor symbol could be used if changed from 
red to pink. What do you think ?



-1, this is likely specific to France and will not be understood elsewhere


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Roads with no speed limits

[John F. Eldredge]

One city street here in Nashville, TN, USA went several decades with no 
speed limit signs at all.  Then, one day, it suddenly had "Speed Limit 
30 MPH" signs every few hundred feet.  My guess is that someone 
successfully argued their way out of a speeding ticket, stating that 
they weren't violating the speed limit because no speed limit was 
posted, and that the court, and/or the public works department, decided 
to make sure that no one else could use the same excuse.



On 08/28/2016 05:28 PM, Warin wrote:

In Australia (and I'd think most other parts of the world)

The speed limit sign you last saw is in effect untill you see another 
sign.

In Australia it might be 100 or more miles between signs.


On 8/29/2016 7:51 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

Il giorno 28 ago 2016, alle ore 22:54, Hans De Kryger 
 ha scritto:


My guess was also what Todd said. Same as the freeway.


that's also the situation in Germany: the motorway limit reaches 
until the end of the motorway which is typically signposted a few 
meters before the end of the off ramp. In Italy there's a general 
limit of 40km/h on all off ramps, although it is always (?) 
signposted I believe it is also set by the law and hence would also 
be effective in absence of signs.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] bus route with reversing

[Hubert87]

Nor really, you still need a way to add "bus=yes" to the 
"pt=stop_position"-node. The "pt=platform"-node doesn't have it. At 
least if you follow the wiki. However, one could also derive this from 
the "route=bus" relation, of which the platform is a member..


Yours

Hubert87

Am 03.09.2016 um 11:11 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


2016-09-03 10:13 GMT+02:00 Éric Gillet >:


I think stop_positions are more important as these relations are
mainly about the route of the PT vehicle, and the vehicle stop at
these points.



yes, but they are implicit: you can project the platform on the road 
and get the stop position.


Cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Roads with no speed limits

[Colin Smale]

On 2016-09-03 16:39, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> 2016-09-03 15:57 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale :
> 
>> That will only work if the road types are mapped correctly to their official 
>> legal status, and not to how they appear.
> 
> There not the one "legal status", at least not in Germany. There's the 
> maintainer of the road, e.g. "Bund", "Land", "Kommune" (national, federal, 
> comunal), and this is how road numbering works. This is the most visible 
> legal status, but it doesn't allow to deduct specific speed limits. Then 
> there is the road class according to technical specifications, consisting of 
> 3 functional classes (connective, distribution, residential), 5 "category 
> groups" (A, B, C, D, E) that have to do with the aforementioned functions and 
> the context (inside and outside built-up areas, lined with buildings and not) 
> and there are 6 levels of connectivity (or importance of connection). These 
> are defined in the 1988 RAS-N (Richtlinien für die Anlage von Straßen - 
> Netzgestaltung),  [1], which is now obsolete, but according to which many of 
> the current roads have been planned and built. They have been superseeded by 
> the RIN (Richtlinien für die integrierte Netzgestaltung) [2] which are 
> somehow similar in
content, at least for this discussion here.
> 
> These technical rules are the actual important classes / legal status, that 
> would have to be known, but not even their existence is commonly known, 
> they're stuff for civil engineers. 
> 
> Laws and rules are typically limited to national borders, if we were to 
> structure OSM according to them, we would not have the nice global dataset we 
> all love, we would have a collection of fragmented national solutions, 
> incompatible between them.

Ergo: map all the speed limits explicitly, and don't rely on the road
type to infer them. Then only one person has to jump through all the
hoops. 

As for the fragmented national solutions, I think that is exactly what
we have and exactly what we want. Modelling all the traffic laws in the
world into a single data model will result in such a complex set of tags
- you don't want that, really you don't. Think of the definition of
something simple like a bicycle - is a tricycle or a unicycle included?
What about trailers? Electrically assisted? Different rules for
competition riders? Does a maxspeed apply? All this is going to differ
per country. 

OSM has always valued local knowledge and local solutions, as long as
they are not too far from the generic model i.e. as long as they don't
conflict. 

Sometimes we seem to be permanently scared of documenting anything for
fear of upsetting some future mapper. The subject of national defaults
has been discussed before and I seem to recall there was a certain level
of support; yet there is no real progress towards its implementation. 

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Re: [Tagging] Roads with no speed limits

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-09-03 15:57 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale :

> That will only work if the road types are mapped correctly to their
> official legal status, and not to how they appear.



There not the one "legal status", at least not in Germany. There's the
maintainer of the road, e.g. "Bund", "Land", "Kommune" (national, federal,
comunal), and this is how road numbering works. This is the most visible
legal status, but it doesn't allow to deduct specific speed limits. Then
there is the road class according to technical specifications, consisting
of 3 functional classes (connective, distribution, residential), 5
"category groups" (A, B, C, D, E) that have to do with the aforementioned
functions and the context (inside and outside built-up areas, lined with
buildings and not) and there are 6 levels of connectivity (or importance of
connection). These are defined in the 1988 RAS-N (Richtlinien für die
Anlage von Straßen – Netzgestaltung),  [1], which is now obsolete, but
according to which many of the current roads have been planned and built.
They have been superseeded by the RIN (Richtlinien für die integrierte
Netzgestaltung) [2] which are somehow similar in content, at least for this
discussion here.

These technical rules are the actual important classes / legal status, that
would have to be known, but not even their existence is commonly known,
they're stuff for civil engineers.

Laws and rules are typically limited to national borders, if we were to
structure OSM according to them, we would not have the nice global dataset
we all love, we would have a collection of fragmented national solutions,
incompatible between them.

Cheers,
Martin


[1] management summary on WP-de, the original texts are copyrighted:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richtlinien_f%C3%BCr_die_Anlage_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_%E2%80%93_Netzgestaltung
[2]
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richtlinien_f%C3%BCr_integrierte_Netzgestaltung
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Re: [Tagging] Roads with no speed limits

[Greg Troxel]

Colin Smale  writes:

> These maxspeeds derived from highway type are perfectly verifiable - by
> checking the highway laws of the territory concerned. A motorway in the
> UK has a maxspeed of 70mph, and you don't need a speed limit sign to
> tell you that. In Europe when you enter a "settlement" (passing a sign
> with the name of the settlement) the speed limit (in many countries)
> becomes 50kph, and you don't need a sign for that either. 

I agree (US perspective).  The doctrine of verifiability is overdone;
the point should be that a normal mapper has the ability to verify, not
just things that are visually apparent.

In the US, the notion of motorway/primary/etc. is messier, as it's a
force fit of UK norms.  In my state, speed limits are, unless otherwise
posted, 50 mph if divided, 40 mph if not divided, and 30 mph if "thickly
settled".  There are often yellow (advisory) signs that say thickly
settled when coming to an area where the police want you to think the
density exceeds the thickly settled definition.

For map speed limits to be useful, they should definitely be tagged
explicitly.  Overzealous declining to tag because of an extreme
definitino of verifiability does a disservice to users.


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Re: [Tagging] Roads with no speed limits

[Colin Smale]

That will only work if the road types are mapped correctly to their
official legal status, and not to how they appear. The legal maxspeed on
a road is (unless otherwise signposted) derived from the official status
of a road and should not be subject to "duck tagging". A trunk road may
to all intents and purposes be equivalent to a motorway, yet it is not a
motorway; a tertiary road may be tagged as secondary if it is a bit
wider than usual - yet it would be its official status which determines
the maxspeed, not its appearance. 

As long as we have a subjective element in tagging highway types, it
cannot be relied upon to indicate the maxspeed. So explicit tagging of
maxspeed is actually to be encouraged.

These maxspeeds derived from highway type are perfectly verifiable - by
checking the highway laws of the territory concerned. A motorway in the
UK has a maxspeed of 70mph, and you don't need a speed limit sign to
tell you that. In Europe when you enter a "settlement" (passing a sign
with the name of the settlement) the speed limit (in many countries)
becomes 50kph, and you don't need a sign for that either. 

//colin 

On 2016-09-03 15:18, Hakuch wrote:

> On 30.08.2016 18:15, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> Il giorno 30 ago 2016, alle ore 12:45, Hakuch  ha scritto:
> 
> "Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality" 
> 
> default speed limits are bound to physical objects: the freeway, the urban 
> road, etc.

you should read the whole thing on the wikipage as it is very specific
for this problem:

"Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the
objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign,
road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way
should not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable. " 
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Re: [Tagging] Roads with no speed limits

[Hakuch]

On 30.08.2016 18:15, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> Il giorno 30 ago 2016, alle ore 12:45, Hakuch  ha scritto:
>>
>> "Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality"
> 
> 
> default speed limits are bound to physical objects: the freeway, the urban 
> road, etc.

you should read the whole thing on the wikipage as it is very specific
for this problem:

"Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the
objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign,
road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way
should not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable. "


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Re: [Tagging] Roads with no speed limits

[Hakuch]

On 30.08.2016 13:59, David Marchal wrote:
> AFAIK, no maxspeed value means that the default maximum speed 
> for this type of road in this area applies, so I wouldn't add this 
> tag when there is no sign; that would also fulfill the "Map what's on 
> the ground" principle. Beware that, if there that was a maximum speed 
> sign (hundreds of) kilometers before, which is still in effect, you 
> should then use this value; that kind of situation is pretty common,
> at least here in France, as it prevents installation of redundant signs 
> after each junction.

true, but how do you know, that the maxspeed has not just been forgotten
or is missing? thats the problem with default values


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Re: [Tagging] Permissive turn restrictions

[Nick Hocking]

Would it be a reasonable solution to have area defaults tagged into the
boundary relation/polygon that defines that area. (e.g an administrative
boundary).

For example, we could have values similar to

"unsigned residential ways"  - maxspeed 50
U-turn at traffic signals   yes/no
unsigned motorway  maxspeed 130
school hours 08:00-09:30;14:30-16:00
school days mo-fr
public holidays 1/1;


Then we only have to tag the exceptions.  It would however, mean that we
have to define permissive restrictions.
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Re: [Tagging] cave_entrance. ref and name

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 31 ago 2016, alle ore 12:23, Richard  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Apparently such ids are already used in OSM 
> (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1049851511).


yes, this thread is about the name tag

Are there any objections to make clear on the cave entrance page that "name" on 
a cave entrance object is the name of the cave entrance?

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] bus route with reversing

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-09-03 10:13 GMT+02:00 Éric Gillet :

> I think stop_positions are more important as these relations are mainly
> about the route of the PT vehicle, and the vehicle stop at these points.
>


yes, but they are implicit: you can project the platform on the road and
get the stop position.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] bus route with reversing

[Éric Gillet]

2016-09-02 23:55 GMT+02:00 Jo :

> I'm not adding stop_position nodes to the route relations either, but
> that's a personal preference to keep things simple. Platform nodes for the
> stops are enough to describe the sequence order of the stops.
>

I think stop_positions are more important as these relations are mainly
about the route of the PT vehicle, and the vehicle stop at these points.
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