Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-09-08 15:39 GMT+02:00 Jo :

> Just tag the route relation in some way, or use roles to indicate which
> ways the minibus would stop anywhere.




+1, or you could split the route in parts and add a "stops anywhere on
demand tag" to some of them (and also regroup the subrelations into a
master relation).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Best tagging practices for winery "tasting rooms"

[Jack Burke]

In that case, I should probably also include:

beer=no
liquor=no

Would "tourism=wine_tasting" be inappropriate?  It just seems to me that
"tourism=attraction" is too generic.

--jack



Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:17:44 +0200
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Best tagging practices for winery "tasting
> rooms"
> Message-ID: <03d36395-0d20-4e58-b4c4-5f88a6f64...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Il giorno 05 set 2016, alle ore 16:41, Jack Burke 
> ha scritto:
> >
> > amenity=bar (sometimes with ;restaurant  added on)
> > wine=yes
> > tourism=attraction
>
>
> if you are specifically after tasting rooms/service, this tagging is way
> too generic. You could add something like wine_tasting=yes/some detail you
> care about
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Jo]

extending stop_position to way would make the whole concept of
stop_position meaningless. Very soon all ways woud be tagged stop_position

Just tag the route relation in some way, or use roles to indicate which
ways the minibus would stop anywhere.

Polyglot

2016-09-08 14:45 GMT+02:00 tomoya muramoto :

> 2016-09-08 18:08 GMT+09:00 Felix Delattre :
>
> >Inside the city center the bus would stop on dedicated bus stops, but
> once they are out of the densely populated area, they stop on people's
> demand.
>
> In Japan, there are such kind of bus route too.
>
> So "on_demand=yes" flag on bus route relation is not enough for me.
> And I don't want to make an OSM object for a virtual platform.
>
> I would propose
>  to add Way (part of the bus route) where bus stops on demand as
> "stop_position" role on the bus relation.
>  (or we can define another role like "stop_position_on_demand")
>
> In the current scheme "stop_position" role is limited to "Node on the
> way". But I think "stop_position" can be expanded to Way.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport
>
> muramoto
>
> 2016-09-08 18:17 GMT+09:00 Éric Gillet :
>
>> 2016-09-08 9:19 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>>
>>> > - Are those built/maintained by the bus company or a related
>>> contractor ?
>>>
>>> it doesn't matter who builds or maintains the bus stop, the important
>>> thing is that the bus stops there. There could be a contractor building and
>>> maintaining them, also for "free" (financing them through advertising,
>>> that's what Wall AG does for instance)
>>>
>>
>> As said by OP, some platforms/shelters are unofficial, so they may be
>> unrelated to PT. Of course we don't really care about who does build and
>> maintain them, but it helps to tell whether they are platforms/shelters
>> designated for PT or not.
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[tomoya muramoto]

2016-09-08 18:08 GMT+09:00 Felix Delattre :

>Inside the city center the bus would stop on dedicated bus stops, but once
they are out of the densely populated area, they stop on people's demand.

In Japan, there are such kind of bus route too.

So "on_demand=yes" flag on bus route relation is not enough for me.
And I don't want to make an OSM object for a virtual platform.

I would propose
 to add Way (part of the bus route) where bus stops on demand as
"stop_position" role on the bus relation.
 (or we can define another role like "stop_position_on_demand")

In the current scheme "stop_position" role is limited to "Node on the way".
But I think "stop_position" can be expanded to Way.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport

muramoto

2016-09-08 18:17 GMT+09:00 Éric Gillet :

> 2016-09-08 9:19 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>
>> > - Are those built/maintained by the bus company or a related contractor
>> ?
>>
>> it doesn't matter who builds or maintains the bus stop, the important
>> thing is that the bus stops there. There could be a contractor building and
>> maintaining them, also for "free" (financing them through advertising,
>> that's what Wall AG does for instance)
>>
>
> As said by OP, some platforms/shelters are unofficial, so they may be
> unrelated to PT. Of course we don't really care about who does build and
> maintain them, but it helps to tell whether they are platforms/shelters
> designated for PT or not.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Éric Gillet]

2016-09-08 9:19 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
> > - Are those built/maintained by the bus company or a related contractor ?
>
> it doesn't matter who builds or maintains the bus stop, the important
> thing is that the bus stops there. There could be a contractor building and
> maintaining them, also for "free" (financing them through advertising,
> that's what Wall AG does for instance)
>

As said by OP, some platforms/shelters are unofficial, so they may be
unrelated to PT. Of course we don't really care about who does build and
maintain them, but it helps to tell whether they are platforms/shelters
designated for PT or not.
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Felix Delattre]

I agree here. What would a good tag be we can use to declare this? 
bus_stops=on_demand?

In the given example I would not add the bus stop plattform to the bus
route relation! As they are not linked to the route, and there are only
for convenience for people waiting for the bus, but also for other
people than bus users, to have a rest (or nap!?) :)

Just to make things a little bit more complicated: In Nicaragua (and
other places I've seen in the world) we have this system, but it doesn't
necessarily depend on the complete route itself, but rather on the area.
For example: Inside the city center the bus would stop on dedicated bus
stops, but once they are out of the densely populated area, they stop on
people's demand.

Cheers,
Felix

On 08/09/16 08:18, Jo wrote:
> Maybe we can have an extra tag on the route relation that the bus will
> stop on demand of the passengers and you only add the stops which have
> physical presence that are along the itinerary to the route relation.
>
> Jo
>
> 2016-09-08 3:30 GMT+02:00 Michael Tsang  >:
>
> On Wednesday 07 September 2016 23:51:12 Éric Gillet wrote:
>
> > If there are platforms (marks on the ground, pole or shelter)
> made for
> > waiting, entering and leaving the vehicle, they should be mapped as
> > nodes/ways.
> >
> > In the case such platforms are used for minibuses, I think they are
> > standard bus stops with both platform and stop_position and
> should be
> > included in the route relation. Another criteria to think of
> them as usual
> > PT stops is whether they are named or not.
> >
> > Éric
>
> On some minibus routes, there are platforms (i.e. poles placed
> near the road)
> along the route but they are just for the convenience of the
> passengers.
> However, in most of the cases, these platforms have no legal
> effect and
> passengers can actually wait for the minibus along the route,
> whether there is
> a platform or not (especially in rural areas). When alighting the
> minibus, the
> passenger just calls out the place to the driver (e.g. "bus stop",
> "junction",
> "convenience store", "no. 23", etc.).
>
> Does that mean I should just map what exist on the ground, without
> regarding
> where the passengers enter / leave the minibus?
>
> Michael
>
> --
> Sent from KMail
>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 08 set 2016, alle ore 09:35, Jo  ha scritto:
> 
> on_demand is for a different kind of bus service.
> 
> For those you have to call to the operator and tell from which stop you want 
> to start and where you want to go. Then the bus travels from that stop to the 
> other, sometimes picking up/dropping off other passengers, but without a 
> fixed itinerary.


while this sounds credible, it might not be the only use. Is this written 
somewhere?


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Jo]

on_demand is for a different kind of bus service.

For those you have to call to the operator and tell from which stop you
want to start and where you want to go. Then the bus travels from that stop
to the other, sometimes picking up/dropping off other passengers, but
without a fixed itinerary.

Having to reserve them is not terribly convenient.

Polyglot

2016-09-08 9:23 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Il giorno 08 set 2016, alle ore 08:32, Éric Gillet <
> gill3t.3ric+...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
> >
> > Finally, I don't think there is a a already-used tag to mean that the
> vehicle can stop "on-demand" in the type=route relations, but feel free to
> start or propose a new one.
>
>
> there's the on_demand flag used but maybe not documented:
> http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/on_demand#combinations
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 08 set 2016, alle ore 08:32, Éric Gillet 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Finally, I don't think there is a a already-used tag to mean that the vehicle 
> can stop "on-demand" in the type=route relations, but feel free to start or 
> propose a new one. 


there's the on_demand flag used but maybe not documented: 
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/on_demand#combinations


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 08 set 2016, alle ore 08:32, Éric Gillet 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Two more questions that could settle whether they should be included :
> - Is there a timetable mentionning those platforms ? 


in Rome there are no timetables for regular busses, but there are maps of the 
lines of course. You simply wait at the bus stop for your bus to come. 


> - Are those built/maintained by the bus company or a related contractor ?


it doesn't matter who builds or maintains the bus stop, the important thing is 
that the bus stops there. There could be a contractor building and maintaining 
them, also for "free" (financing them through advertising, that's what Wall AG 
does for instance)


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 08 set 2016, alle ore 03:30, Michael Tsang  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Does that mean I should just map what exist on the ground, without regarding 
> where the passengers enter / leave the minibus?


seems like, yes. You wouldn't want to put a very long platform along the whole 
route? Which route value do you assign?

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Éric Gillet]

2016-09-08 3:30 GMT+02:00 Michael Tsang :

> On some minibus routes, there are platforms (i.e. poles placed near the
> road)
> along the route but they are just for the convenience of the passengers.
> However, in most of the cases, these platforms have no legal effect and
> passengers can actually wait for the minibus along the route, whether
> there is
> a platform or not (especially in rural areas). When alighting the minibus,
> the
> passenger just calls out the place to the driver (e.g. "bus stop",
> "junction",
> "convenience store", "no. 23", etc.).
>
> Does that mean I should just map what exist on the ground, without
> regarding
> where the passengers enter / leave the minibus?


If something exists on the ground, it should be mapped when possible.
What's not 100% sure for me is whether to include them in route relations.

In my experience "regular" bus services are not expected to stop on
designated bus stops if no one want to get off or come aboard, so it's
kinda the same with these minibuses.

Two more questions that could settle whether they should be included :
- Is there a timetable mentionning those platforms ?
- Are those built/maintained by the bus company or a related contractor ?

Finally, I don't think there is a a already-used tag to mean that the
vehicle can stop "on-demand" in the type=route relations, but feel free to
start or propose a new one.
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Re: [Tagging] Minibus routes

[Jo]

Maybe we can have an extra tag on the route relation that the bus will stop
on demand of the passengers and you only add the stops which have physical
presence that are along the itinerary to the route relation.

Jo

2016-09-08 3:30 GMT+02:00 Michael Tsang :

> On Wednesday 07 September 2016 23:51:12 Éric Gillet wrote:
>
> > If there are platforms (marks on the ground, pole or shelter) made for
> > waiting, entering and leaving the vehicle, they should be mapped as
> > nodes/ways.
> >
> > In the case such platforms are used for minibuses, I think they are
> > standard bus stops with both platform and stop_position and should be
> > included in the route relation. Another criteria to think of them as
> usual
> > PT stops is whether they are named or not.
> >
> > Éric
>
> On some minibus routes, there are platforms (i.e. poles placed near the
> road)
> along the route but they are just for the convenience of the passengers.
> However, in most of the cases, these platforms have no legal effect and
> passengers can actually wait for the minibus along the route, whether
> there is
> a platform or not (especially in rural areas). When alighting the minibus,
> the
> passenger just calls out the place to the driver (e.g. "bus stop",
> "junction",
> "convenience store", "no. 23", etc.).
>
> Does that mean I should just map what exist on the ground, without
> regarding
> where the passengers enter / leave the minibus?
>
> Michael
>
> --
> Sent from KMail
>
> ___
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