Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 08.11.2016 16:26, Dave F wrote:


I think you're looking at the wrong bit:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/172425897


Indeed, as we were talking about circular structures, I was looking into 
the road in the north-west of the circle, you refer to the roads in the 
southeast.



http://tinyurl.com/otmaque (StreetView)


Ok, Google then. Their street imagery is dated June 2008, the road 
layout has changed significantly since.


We use aerial imagery from the Geoportal Berlin
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Geoportal_Berlin
where the city enjoyed us with annual updates recently.

Thus, the change happened between the 2011 and 2014 imagery.


Where is this path on GSV? (note it's directly at the bottom of the
steps on OSM): http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/386659492

Where is this path on OSM? It appears to be missing:
http://tinyurl.com/oj9shyp


As above, the paths are mapped correctly according to 2016 aerial view.


Does Skalitzer Straße have lights controlling traffic onto Kottbusser
Tor as per this view: http://tinyurl.com/ool33xg?


As above, this situation is outdated. The tie-in point of the 
residential road is further east, as currently correctly mapped in OSM.



Caveat: I'm using streetview so the images could be out of date.


Yes absolutely. You should trust the community! ;-)
And as said, I'll post a full circle in mapillary within a week or so.

Please note that we are deviating from a general tagging question into 
mapping details of a particular junction. If you need to follow up, 
please change at least the subject...


tom

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Bird Tower

[Tijmen Stam]

On 08-11-16 20:04, markus schnalke wrote:

Hoi,

in the name of the mapping group UlmerAlb, I welcome you to
discuss our proposal for

tower:type=nesting_site

to tag a man made bird nesting aid mounted on a mast or tower.

In short: A bird tower is a man made mast or tower equipped with
one or multiple birds nests, serving as an artificial nesting aid,
compensating the reduction of traditional nesting opportunities.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Bird_Tower


+1


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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Bird Tower

[markus schnalke]

Hoi,

in the name of the mapping group UlmerAlb, I welcome you to
discuss our proposal for

tower:type=nesting_site

to tag a man made bird nesting aid mounted on a mast or tower.

In short: A bird tower is a man made mast or tower equipped with
one or multiple birds nests, serving as an artificial nesting aid,
compensating the reduction of traditional nesting opportunities.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Bird_Tower


meillo

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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Dave F]

On 08/11/2016 14:09, Tom Pfeifer wrote:

On 08.11.2016 14:35, Dave F wrote:


On 08/11/2016 11:07, Daniel Hofmann wrote:

In the second example "Skalitzer Straße" has right of way.


... Reichenberger Straße appears to be mapped incorrectly as


No.


it joins directly into Kottbusser Tor


That's what it does in reality. And it's oneway, so you can only leave 
the circle, not join.


I think you're looking at the wrong bit:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/172425897

http://tinyurl.com/otmaque (StreetView)

Where is this path on GSV? (note it's directly at the bottom of the 
steps on OSM): http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/386659492


Where is this path on OSM? It appears to be missing: 
http://tinyurl.com/oj9shyp






& the pedestrian crossing is
nearer Kottbusser Tor (note the crossing & path are to the West of the
steps up to the railway station.


Access to the U-Bahn (which is above the street here) is via a 
pedestrian tunnel, so the steps outside the circle are going _down_ to 
-1.


These are the steps I'm talking about. going from from Ground level up 
to Level 1

http://tinyurl.com/oodmyat




The lights at that crossing also appear to control vehicle access onto
Kottbusser Tor.


The lights are not all mapped. there are light when entering the 
circle, and lights in the circle.

Will do a full mapillary round next time in the area to get it completed.


Does Skalitzer Straße have lights controlling traffic onto Kottbusser 
Tor as per this view: http://tinyurl.com/ool33xg?





Caveat: I'm using streetview so the images could be out of date.


Which streetview, there are plenty?

Start using mapillary, and there is 2016 aerial coverage for Berlin in 
the town's osm-compliant geoportal. ;-)


Do you mean Mapbox? It's a bit blurred. The photos appear to show the 
same as Google Streetview





If the lights were removed (or temporarily failed) drivers wouldn't
think they have right access on entering the Tor or suddenly start
driving clockwise around it. They'd treat it like a roundabout because
it is a roundabout.


No, each light has either a give-way or main-street sign attached, 
they make the regulation unambiguous when they are off.



But from what I understand you want a tag saying it's not a roundabout
so you can route it as if it was a roundabout.


Effectively Daniel proposes a tag for a circular junction that is not 
formally a roundabout by OSM definition. Then, every data consumer can 
do with it what she wants, whether we like it here or not. As this is 
the tagging list, I am in favour of such a tag, as long as it is a 
positive description.


tom


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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 08.11.2016 14:35, Dave F wrote:


On 08/11/2016 11:07, Daniel Hofmann wrote:

In the second example "Skalitzer Straße" has right of way.


... Reichenberger Straße appears to be mapped incorrectly as


No.


it joins directly into Kottbusser Tor


That's what it does in reality. And it's oneway, so you can only leave 
the circle, not join.



& the pedestrian crossing is
nearer Kottbusser Tor (note the crossing & path are to the West of the
steps up to the railway station.


Access to the U-Bahn (which is above the street here) is via a 
pedestrian tunnel, so the steps outside the circle are going _down_ to -1.



The lights at that crossing also appear to control vehicle access onto
Kottbusser Tor.


The lights are not all mapped. there are light when entering the circle, 
and lights in the circle.

Will do a full mapillary round next time in the area to get it completed.


Caveat: I'm using streetview so the images could be out of date.


Which streetview, there are plenty?

Start using mapillary, and there is 2016 aerial coverage for Berlin in 
the town's osm-compliant geoportal. ;-)



If the lights were removed (or temporarily failed) drivers wouldn't
think they have right access on entering the Tor or suddenly start
driving clockwise around it. They'd treat it like a roundabout because
it is a roundabout.


No, each light has either a give-way or main-street sign attached, they 
make the regulation unambiguous when they are off.



But from what I understand you want a tag saying it's not a roundabout
so you can route it as if it was a roundabout.


Effectively Daniel proposes a tag for a circular junction that is not 
formally a roundabout by OSM definition. Then, every data consumer can 
do with it what she wants, whether we like it here or not. As this is 
the tagging list, I am in favour of such a tag, as long as it is a 
positive description.


tom


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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Dave F]

On 08/11/2016 11:07, Daniel Hofmann wrote:

In the second example "Skalitzer Straße" has right of way.


Are you sure? Reichenberger Straße appears to be mapped incorrectly as 
it joins directly into Kottbusser Tor & the pedestrian crossing is 
nearer Kottbusser Tor (note the crossing & path are to the West of the 
steps up to the railway station.


The lights at that crossing also appear to control vehicle access onto 
Kottbusser Tor.


Caveat: I'm using streetview so the images could be out of date.

If the lights were removed (or temporarily failed) drivers wouldn't 
think they have right access on entering the Tor or suddenly start 
driving clockwise around it. They'd treat it like a roundabout because 
it is a roundabout.




...But it's a hack and that's exactly my point: there should be a 
proper tagging scheme to tag this.


But from what I understand you want a tag saying it's not a roundabout 
so you can route it as if it was a roundabout.


DaveF



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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-08 12:43 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer :

> When you give the 4th exit in turn instructions, the driver would need to
> carefully count the outgoing roads only, not the incoming. Try to
> distinguish them while you are in the inner lane in the circle, focussing
> on the lane markings and watching cars cutting in in front of you!
>
> Next, check Ernst-Reuter-Platz, which is a true roundabout from the
> priority rule.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.51261=13.32183#ma
> p=18/52.51261/13.32183
>


yes, it's all, historically (without traffic lights) and currently (with
traffic lights) a full featured roundabout (or at least it was until 10
years ago, don't know the current situation).



>
>
> A solution could probably to improve the destination tagging on the
> outgoing roads in sync with the directional signposts, so the instructions
> can be "fork into Marchstraße towards Wedding".
>


yes, the particular situation of those big roundabouts is about the lane to
choose when inside. You would want to be towards the inside where you don't
exit and have to be towards the outside where you leave it.


I believe your second example is a roundabout
>
> (Kottbusser Tor) No, it is not. It has neither the blue signposting, nor
> has it the priority regulation of a roundabout. Counting exits would be
> difficult for the driver here, as said.
>
>>
>

yes, but I'm also unsure if special indications would do any benefit here
in general. Most traffic is going straight and there's the subway above you
when you turn, so it's generally a situation of low transparency (subway
columns, shadow, etc.) and it doesn't really matter whether it's circular
or not (you'll typically wait at the red light if you turn, so there's a
lot of time to re-orient, IIRR).


Großer Stern makes it easy to count incoming traffic / outgoing traffic I
believe, it's so huge with many lanes and cars immitting that you can
hardly miss a crossing road, even in the inner ways.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 08.11.2016 12:53, Tom Pfeifer wrote:

However it needs to be a positive tag describing the situation, and a negative 
what it is not.


I meant, of course:
However it needs to be a positive tag describing the situation, and 
_*not*_ a negative what it is not.


tom

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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 08.11.2016 12:07, Daniel Hofmann wrote:

querying for (junction!=roundabout) and (note~"roundabout|Kreisverkehr")

The routing engine could do the same parsing note tags.
This would allow us to classify probably all popular ones at least.

But it's a hack and that's exactly my point: there should be a proper
tagging scheme to tag this.


I agree that the junction tag could be given a value for those circular 
traffics that are not a roundabout. However it needs to be a positive 
tag describing the situation, and a negative what it is not. Otherwise 
the robotic minds of some mappers will attach the "not-a-roundabout" to 
every other junction!


Thus junction=circular_traffic or junction=traffic_circle would work for 
me. It would be helpful to get the American English perspective 
beforehand, to avoid using something too much a synonym to roundabout.


Oxford: "traffic circle ; N-Amer; a road junction at which traffic moves 
in one direction around a central island."

Does this imply any priority regulation??

On 08.11.2016 12:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> what about
> junction=circular
> or circular_crossing
> or circular_junction

those are good as well, and avoid AmE/BrE conflicts. "circular" is nice 
and concise.


tom


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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-08 12:07 GMT+01:00 Daniel Hofmann :

>
> it's a total of four turn instructions every 10-20 meter since there is no
> proper tag for the routing engine to differentiate this from a road with
> four intersections.
> Instead the routing engine could emit a single instruction here.



what about
junction=circular
or circular_crossing
or circular_junction
etc.?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 08.11.2016 11:58, Dave F wrote:
Why would you want it to "issue special instructions"? Are you askingus to add a 'this is not a roundabout' tag to fool OSRM into thinking 

it's a roundabout?

This is exactly the question we need to ask first, what should the
driver experience be?

For a small installation, which Daniel called "Roundabout Intersection", 
which a driver can overview easily from the entrance point, giving the 
exit count might be useful.


For large ones, independently if they are formally a roundabout or a 
traffic circle, this becomes increasingly difficult with the complexity 
of the road layout.


Look at Grosser Stern with its 5 main arms, each consisting of a dual 
carriageway. "Not-a-roundabout" situation.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.51451=13.35013#map=18/52.51451/13.35012

When you give the 4th exit in turn instructions, the driver would need 
to carefully count the outgoing roads only, not the incoming. Try to 
distinguish them while you are in the inner lane in the circle, 
focussing on the lane markings and watching cars cutting in in front of you!


Next, check Ernst-Reuter-Platz, which is a true roundabout from the 
priority rule.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.51261=13.32183#map=18/52.51261/13.32183

Slightly smaller, but the exits shaped even more into forks.

A solution could probably to improve the destination tagging on the 
outgoing roads in sync with the directional signposts, so the 
instructions can be "fork into Marchstraße towards Wedding".



Looking at your first routing example, I'm failing to understand
what the problem is. As it's not a roundabout OSMR appears to be give
clear accurate information.


(Bersarinplatz) With the oval shape of the installation, the
instructions read fine, as the driver on the B96a has little "roundabout
feeling".


I believe your second example is a roundabout


(Kottbusser Tor) No, it is not. It has neither the blue signposting, nor
has it the priority regulation of a roundabout.
Counting exits would be difficult for the driver here, as said.


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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Yves]

In fact,  the tag should be "like-a-roundabout",  right? 

Le 8 novembre 2016 12:07:24 GMT+01:00, Daniel Hofmann  a 
écrit :
>In the second example "Skalitzer Straße" has right of way.
>
>Here are the instructions emitted at the moment:
>http://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car=52.49915%2C13.41952%3B52.49857%2C13.41852#map=19/52.49896/13.41865
>
>it's a total of four turn instructions every 10-20 meter since there is
>no
>proper tag for the routing engine to differentiate this from a road
>with
>four intersections.
>Instead the routing engine could emit a single instruction here.
>
>My argument is this: there already is a pseudo tag for these
>Not-a-Roundabouts:
>it's 1/ no junction=roundabout tag and 2/ a note tag containing
>"roundabout" / "Kreisverkehr"
>
>Here's an example:
>http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/jTV
>
>querying for (junction!=roundabout) and
>(note~"roundabout|Kreisverkehr")
>
>The routing engine could do the same parsing note tags.
>This would allow us to classify probably all popular ones at least.
>
>But it's a hack and that's exactly my point: there should be a proper
>tagging scheme to tag this.
>
>On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Dave F 
>wrote:
>
>> Hi Daniel
>>
>> Second example: Which junction has priority? From a quick look on
>> Streetview all junctions appear to be light controlled.
>>
>> Could you expand on what 'special instructions' the routing engine is
>not
>> able to issue?
>>
>> DaveF
>>
>>
>> On 07/11/2016 14:30, Daniel Hofmann wrote:
>>
>> Over at OSRM we're not only doing Routing on OSM but also Guidance
>for
>> users once a suitable route is found. In order to make the user
>experience
>> great and the instructions pleasant to use we differentiate between
>>
>> 1/ Roundabouts
>> Think: "at the roundabout take the nth exit"
>>
>> 2/ Roundabout Intersections
>> These are roundabouts with up to four ways and turn angles which
>makes the
>> turns obvious.
>> Think: "at the roundabout turn left"
>>
>> 3/ Rotaries
>> These are large and named roundabouts.
>> Think: "at Meinplatz take the nth exit"
>>
>> 4/ Not-a-Roundabout (what this post is about)
>> There are situations where one of the entering road has right of way,
>> which disqualifies the scenario for being classified as a roundabout.
>The
>> Wiki has a section on these Not-a-Roundabouts:
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%
>> 3Droundabout#Not_a_roundabout
>> > In all these cases, the key “junction” is not necessary at all. You
>need
>> no special tagging.
>>
>> Most of these Not-a-Roundabouts have a note on them, telling users
>not to
>> tag them as junction=roundabout as this is a common mistake. Here are
>two
>> examples in Berlin:
>>
>> Bersarinplatz
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/288767318#map=19/52.51849/
>> 13.45355=D
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car;
>>
>route=52.51786%2C13.45348%3B52.51918%2C13.45281#map=19/52.51852/13.45327
>>
>> Kottbusser Tor
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/159155852#map=19/52.49898/
>> 13.41881=D
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car;
>>
>route=52.49915%2C13.41952%3B52.49857%2C13.41852#map=19/52.49896/13.41865
>>
>> As you can tell, for both of those situations the routing engine is
>not
>> able to issue special instructions since there is no tag to parse.
>And
>> parsing note tags for the occurrence of roundabout is not a solution
>;)
>>
>> With the current situations of having note="don't tag as roundabout"
>> pseudo-tags on most of those it would make sense to establish a
>proper
>> junction=not_a_roundabout tag (tag is up for discussion) software can
>parse
>> and make use of.
>>
>> What's your opinion on Not-a-Roundabout?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Daniel J H
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Daniel Hofmann]

In the second example "Skalitzer Straße" has right of way.

Here are the instructions emitted at the moment:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car=52.49915%2C13.41952%3B52.49857%2C13.41852#map=19/52.49896/13.41865

it's a total of four turn instructions every 10-20 meter since there is no
proper tag for the routing engine to differentiate this from a road with
four intersections.
Instead the routing engine could emit a single instruction here.

My argument is this: there already is a pseudo tag for these
Not-a-Roundabouts:
it's 1/ no junction=roundabout tag and 2/ a note tag containing
"roundabout" / "Kreisverkehr"

Here's an example:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/jTV

querying for (junction!=roundabout) and (note~"roundabout|Kreisverkehr")

The routing engine could do the same parsing note tags.
This would allow us to classify probably all popular ones at least.

But it's a hack and that's exactly my point: there should be a proper
tagging scheme to tag this.

On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Dave F  wrote:

> Hi Daniel
>
> Second example: Which junction has priority? From a quick look on
> Streetview all junctions appear to be light controlled.
>
> Could you expand on what 'special instructions' the routing engine is not
> able to issue?
>
> DaveF
>
>
> On 07/11/2016 14:30, Daniel Hofmann wrote:
>
> Over at OSRM we're not only doing Routing on OSM but also Guidance for
> users once a suitable route is found. In order to make the user experience
> great and the instructions pleasant to use we differentiate between
>
> 1/ Roundabouts
> Think: "at the roundabout take the nth exit"
>
> 2/ Roundabout Intersections
> These are roundabouts with up to four ways and turn angles which makes the
> turns obvious.
> Think: "at the roundabout turn left"
>
> 3/ Rotaries
> These are large and named roundabouts.
> Think: "at Meinplatz take the nth exit"
>
> 4/ Not-a-Roundabout (what this post is about)
> There are situations where one of the entering road has right of way,
> which disqualifies the scenario for being classified as a roundabout. The
> Wiki has a section on these Not-a-Roundabouts:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%
> 3Droundabout#Not_a_roundabout
> > In all these cases, the key “junction” is not necessary at all. You need
> no special tagging.
>
> Most of these Not-a-Roundabouts have a note on them, telling users not to
> tag them as junction=roundabout as this is a common mistake. Here are two
> examples in Berlin:
>
> Bersarinplatz
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/288767318#map=19/52.51849/
> 13.45355=D
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car;
> route=52.51786%2C13.45348%3B52.51918%2C13.45281#map=19/52.51852/13.45327
>
> Kottbusser Tor
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/159155852#map=19/52.49898/
> 13.41881=D
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car;
> route=52.49915%2C13.41952%3B52.49857%2C13.41852#map=19/52.49896/13.41865
>
> As you can tell, for both of those situations the routing engine is not
> able to issue special instructions since there is no tag to parse. And
> parsing note tags for the occurrence of roundabout is not a solution ;)
>
> With the current situations of having note="don't tag as roundabout"
> pseudo-tags on most of those it would make sense to establish a proper
> junction=not_a_roundabout tag (tag is up for discussion) software can parse
> and make use of.
>
> What's your opinion on Not-a-Roundabout?
>
> Cheers,
> Daniel J H
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proper Tag for Not-a-Roundabout

[Dave F]

Looking at your first routing example, I'm failing to understand what 
the problem is. As it's not a roundabout OSMR appears to be give clear 
accurate information. Why would you want it to "issue special 
instructions"? Are you asking us to add a 'this is not a roundabout' tag 
to fool OSRM into thinking it's a roundabout?


I believe your second example is a roundabout

Dave F.

On 07/11/2016 14:30, Daniel Hofmann wrote:
Over at OSRM we're not only doing Routing on OSM but also Guidance for 
users once a suitable route is found. In order to make the user 
experience great and the instructions pleasant to use we differentiate 
between


1/ Roundabouts
Think: "at the roundabout take the nth exit"

2/ Roundabout Intersections
These are roundabouts with up to four ways and turn angles which makes 
the turns obvious.

Think: "at the roundabout turn left"

3/ Rotaries
These are large and named roundabouts.
Think: "at Meinplatz take the nth exit"

4/ Not-a-Roundabout (what this post is about)
There are situations where one of the entering road has right of way, 
which disqualifies the scenario for being classified as a roundabout. 
The Wiki has a section on these Not-a-Roundabouts:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout#Not_a_roundabout
> In all these cases, the key “junction” is not necessary at all. You 
need no special tagging.


Most of these Not-a-Roundabouts have a note on them, telling users not 
to tag them as junction=roundabout as this is a common mistake. Here 
are two examples in Berlin:


Bersarinplatz

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/288767318#map=19/52.51849/13.45355=D

http://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car=52.51786%2C13.45348%3B52.51918%2C13.45281#map=19/52.51852/13.45327

Kottbusser Tor

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/159155852#map=19/52.49898/13.41881=D

http://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car=52.49915%2C13.41952%3B52.49857%2C13.41852#map=19/52.49896/13.41865

As you can tell, for both of those situations the routing engine is 
not able to issue special instructions since there is no tag to parse. 
And parsing note tags for the occurrence of roundabout is not a 
solution ;)


With the current situations of having note="don't tag as roundabout" 
pseudo-tags on most of those it would make sense to establish a proper 
junction=not_a_roundabout tag (tag is up for discussion) software can 
parse and make use of.


What's your opinion on Not-a-Roundabout?

Cheers,
Daniel J H


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