Re: [Tagging] 'ongoing' U-turn restriction

[André Pirard]

On 2016-12-07 22:53, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> Hey all, 
>
> Apparently there are roads that have an 'ongoing' U-turn restriction,
> see the sign here for example: http://openstreetcam.org/details/10053/304 
>
> I know how to tag this for an intersection but not how to do it for an
> entire way where U-turns are prohibited.
The concept of a node where one cannot U-turn and where one could U-turn
1 meter before it is a strange one.
In Belgium, signal C33

indicates that one cannot U-turn from the position of the signal up to
and including the next crossing.  It's obviously always in force over a
span of the highway, it indicates a one-way section and the simplest way
to indicate that is oneway=yes.

I find the road-signal-like tagging dangerous.
I have seen municipality limit tags that did not show on which side the
municipality is and that would be called redundant by someone disliking
that tagging.
I have seen give-way tags right in the middle of 3-way junctions. 
Really, what did the tagger have in mind?
Priority to the right?  i did not find tagging for this one.
Etc.

Cheers

André.


> Any guidance?
>
> Thanks,
> Martijn van Exel
> http://mvexel.github.io/
>

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Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Aun Johnsen]

I am among the few that have tried to buy real estate in multiple countries, 
and I would definitely heal against office=

Entering a real estate agency doesn’t feel like a shop, neither in Europe, nor 
in South America, where I have first hand experience

All estate agency I have entered have the layout of offices. 

I have noticed estate agencies that solely announce on internet and newspaper 
without any “shop-front” at all, and use the announcements to get people to 
on-site sightings of the houses and apartments for sale, and rely solely on 
media and on-site to sell.

The few times I have had “in shop presentation” of a house or apartment have 
all been for new developments, where no showcase apartment or house have been 
available.

Based on all of these experiences, shop=estate_agent feels and sounds wrong, 
while office=estate_agent feel and sound like the way to go.

Aun Johnsen



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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[Alejandro S.]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, 23:41 Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> The correct tagging would certainly be  "amenity" with several values,
> separated by semicolons.
> That's allowed by the osm data structure. We (try to) avoid it because of
> the inherent problems with the subsequent rendering.
> Maybe we could do it in the way the ingredients are listed on food stuff:
> a list in decreasing order of importance.  A simple renderer would simply
> use the first value of the list, but specialised ones are free to use also
> the remaining values of the key.
>

Wow! I think that will certainly need a dedicated thread by itself. And
doesn't address the problem of having an exception in the bar definition.
Indeed looks like amenity=cafe, amenity=bar and amenity=pub have the same
meaning in Mediterranean counties.

Best regards,
Alejandro Suárez

>
> On 7 Dec 2016 22:50, "ksg"  wrote:
>
> > Am 07.12.2016 um 21:34 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> > for me, amenity=cafe implies tables and chairs, many bars don't have
> tables, just a bar.
>
>
> I admit that an Italian bar is different from a german cafe in almost each
> and every way ;)
>
> But amongst the alternatives „bar“ „pub“ and „cafe“, wouldn’t be the
> latter the best choice?
>
> Klaus (geow)
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[Alejandro S.]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, 21:36 Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 7 Dec 2016, at 21:00, ksg  wrote:
> >
> > I guess caffe (espresso) is also the most _important_ served item and
> justifies amenity=cafe for an Italian „bar"
>
>
> for me, amenity=cafe implies tables and chairs, many bars don't have
> tables, just a bar. There's a wide range of places that call themselves
> "bar", often they are combinations: bar pasticceria (pastry), bar caffè,
> bar tabacchi, ristorante bar caffè, bar gelateria, bar tavola calda, 
> Some are indeed better tagged with amenity=cafe
>

And maybe some of them as amenity=pub?

>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[Alejandro S.]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, 21:02 ksg  wrote:

> > Am 07.12.2016 um 11:26 schrieb Volker Schmidt :
> > The situation in Italy is similar.
> > In my area (Veneto) they are mostly tagged as amenity=cafe, I suppose
> that is because this is the most frequently served item.
>
>
> I guess caffe (espresso) is also the most _important_ served item and
> justifies amenity=cafe for an Italian „bar"
> "
>

I agree, but for a place where beer and coffee share the top, would you use
amenit=bar?

> For me, the the English word "pub" indicates a place where the most
> frequently served item is beer, not food.
>
> +1
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[Alejandro S.]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, 11:27 Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> The situation in Italy is similar.
> In my area (Veneto) they are mostly tagged as amenity=cafe, I suppose that
> is because this is the most frequently served item.
>

Maybe amenity=cafe it's wrong, but would you tag those establishments (that
are between pub and cafe) as amenity=bar?

>
> For me, the the English word "pub" indicates a place where the most
> frequently served item is beer, not food.
>

A place where the most frequent severed item is food looks like a
restaurant ;)

>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[Alejandro S.]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, 10:07 Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 7 Dec 2016, at 02:32, Alejandro S.  wrote:
>
> That looks like the definition of a Spanish "*bar*", why not use the tag
> that describe that concept, amenity=pub.
>
>
>
> if amenity=pub fits the thing you want to tag, just use this tag
>

Sure ! That's what I do, but that statement confuses people :(

>
>
>
> That exception looks like it was written many years ago by user
> dieterdreist[3] but I don't know if it was discussed before or after the
> writing in the wiki.
>
>
>
> It was discussed, and it documents tagging practice in Italy.
>

OK.
Is an Italian "bar" a place with loud music where no food is served,
usually you have to stand and with a noisy atmosphere, similar to a party?
I'm asking from the ignorance but the Spanish ones they are not.

>
> cheers,
> Martin
>

Beats,
Alejandro

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Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Mike N]

On 12/7/2016 5:48 PM, LeTopographeFou wrote:

Several years after this debate, the wiki page of the approved one
(shop=estate_agent) have been tagged as "to be merged", both shop and
office are documented and here are the statistics:


 I would also lean toward office= because it describes the situation 
much better.   I had used shop= earlier, but already migrated my own 
tags.   After all, you don't walk into one of these locations to buy an 
estate_agent.


  Like all things in OSM, I'm not sure how to migrate to a new 
consensus of office=



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Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Tod Fitch]

For what it is worth, in the regional dialect of American English I speak and 
the area I live in, realtors (“estate agents” or “real estate agents”) work out 
of an “realty office” or a “real estate office”. It might be a “store front” 
office, but the office is very likely to only be open during normal local 
“office hours” rather than normal local “retail hours”. Its furnishings will be 
office like (desks, chairs, etc.) rather than retail like (display cases and 
counters). And much of the time the smaller concerns may have an office that is 
closed when the agents are out with clients or only be open by appointment or 
when there is paperwork to be signed.

I sold one house last year and purchased another. I never visited the office of 
the selling agent on the first house. And only visited the office we had for 
purchasing the other house twice, both times to sign some paperwork.

So from my experience, office=estate_agent makes more sense than 
shop=estate_agent.

It is a large world and customs and laws pertaining to the transfer of real 
estate could be much different elsewhere, but I’ll continue to think of them 
and tag them as offices.

> On Dec 7, 2016, at 2:48 PM, LeTopographeFou  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I will probably reopen an explosive case but I would like to know where we 
> are reguarding shop=estate_agent vs office=estate_agent.
> 
> On the discussion page for the original proposal 
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Estate_Agent 
> ) 
> there is already some debates on this one but because the tag office was not 
> yet created, shop has been prefered. And probably also because concensus was 
> not strong enought toward office.
> 
> Several years after this debate, the wiki page of the approved one 
> (shop=estate_agent) have been tagged as "to be merged", both shop and office 
> are documented and here are the statistics:
> 
> office=estate_agent 
>  (status in 
> use) => 17 227 use
> shop=estate_agent 
>  (status 
> approved) => 3 818 use
> On editor side both JOSM and ID use office=estate_agent (unofficial) and do 
> not recognise shop=estate_agent (official). This will definitively not help 
> the approved one to grow.
> Consequently it looks like the "in use" one is killing (has already killed?) 
> the "approved" one.
> 
> => Is there any ongoing plan to clarify the situation? Any up to date 
> discussion page/proposal I did not found yet?
> 
> If one ask for my opinion, I would tend to say that we shall not think by 
> purpose of the company but by purpose of the place we map (OSM is all about 
> mapping right?):
> a shop is where you can buy something, regardless it is a desk in the midddle 
> of a room or nice rows of shelves with products and prices. Consequently a 
> "place" at the corner of the street where you can enter and buy a real estate 
> would be a shop.
> an office is where people are working, usually at desks, and are not 
> primarily dedicated to wait for customers, welcome them and sell products. 
> Consequently, the headquarter of this real estate chain (or a building 
> dedicated to an administrative or internal service) would be an office.
> If everything (selling and administrative) is at the same place, I think that 
> shop should be prefered (but one can use both on the same object).
> This is like the HQ of a bank or a post company: it's more an office than an 
> amenity (and sometimes there is no counter nor ATM inside).
> 
> In this scenario shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent would coexist, 
> each one with its own meaning (or another mecanism to differenciate an open 
> shop from a limited-access office, both working to sell/manage real estates, 
> would be devised). Same principle can be applied to insurances, law firms... 
> which are suffering from the same issue.
> Yours,
> -- 
> LeTopographeFou


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[Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[LeTopographeFou]

Hi,

I will probably reopen an explosive case but I would like to know where 
we are reguarding shop=estate_agent vs office=estate_agent.


On the discussion page for the original proposal 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Estate_Agent) 
there is already some debates on this one but because the tag office was 
not yet created, shop has been prefered. And probably also because 
concensus was not strong enought toward office.


Several years after this debate, the wiki page of the approved one 
(shop=estate_agent) have been tagged as "to be merged", both shop and 
office are documented and here are the statistics:


 * office=estate_agent
   
   (status in use) => 17 227 use
 * shop=estate_agent
   
   (status approved) => 3 818 use

On editor side both JOSM and ID use office=estate_agent (unofficial) and 
do not recognise shop=estate_agent (official). This will definitively 
not help the approved one to grow.


Consequently it looks like the "in use" one is killing (has already 
killed?) the "approved" one.


=> Is there any ongoing plan to clarify the situation? Any up to date 
discussion page/proposal I did not found yet?


If one ask for my opinion, I would tend to say that we shall not think 
by purpose of the company but by purpose of the place we map (OSM is all 
about mapping right?):


 * a shop is where you can buy something, regardless it is a desk in
   the midddle of a room or nice rows of shelves with products and
   prices. Consequently a "place" at the corner of the street where you
   can enter and buy a real estate would be a shop.
 * an office is where people are working, usually at desks, and are not
   primarily dedicated to wait for customers, welcome them and sell
   products. Consequently, the headquarter of this real estate chain
   (or a building dedicated to an administrative or internal service)
   would be an office.

If everything (selling and administrative) is at the same place, I think 
that shop should be prefered (but one can use both on the same object).


This is like the HQ of a bank or a post company: it's more an office 
than an amenity (and sometimes there is no counter nor ATM inside).


In this scenario shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent would 
coexist, each one with its own meaning (or another mecanism to 
differenciate an open shop from a limited-access office, both working to 
sell/manage real estates, would be devised). Same principle can be 
applied to insurances, law firms... which are suffering from the same issue.


Yours,

--
LeTopographeFou

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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[Volker Schmidt]

The correct tagging would certainly be  "amenity" with several values,
separated by semicolons.
That's allowed by the osm data structure. We (try to) avoid it because of
the inherent problems with the subsequent rendering.
Maybe we could do it in the way the ingredients are listed on food stuff: a
list in decreasing order of importance.  A simple renderer would simply use
the first value of the list, but specialised ones are free to use also the
remaining values of the key.

On 7 Dec 2016 22:50, "ksg"  wrote:

> > Am 07.12.2016 um 21:34 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> > for me, amenity=cafe implies tables and chairs, many bars don't have
> tables, just a bar.
>
>
> I admit that an Italian bar is different from a german cafe in almost each
> and every way ;)
>
> But amongst the alternatives „bar“ „pub“ and „cafe“, wouldn’t be the
> latter the best choice?
>
> Klaus (geow)
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] highway=primary/secondary/tertiary - tag according to quality or usage? (Paul Johnson)

[John Willis]

Javbw

On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:02 AM, Bradley White  wrote:

>> Unless being a surface expressway (trunk) or fully controlled freeway
>> (motorway), I tend to qualify anything that averages 7+ lanes as primary,
>> 5-6 lanes as secondary or primary, 4-5 lanes as secondary, 2-3 lanes as
>> tertiary, when otherwise not otherwise being a state (secondary) or federal
>> (primary) highway.
> 
> This is what the "lanes" tag is for. Trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary
> is not necessarily about quality or usage - it is fundamentally about
> road network importance. There are many extremely important roads in
> the U.S. that are only 2 lanes.

In Japan, it is the other end of the spectrum. The designations are purely 
legal designations. Many of the older, extremely narrow and winding "primary" 
roads have been bypassed (and officially signed as bypass roads) - but the 
smaller older roads still carry the "primary" designation while the larger (and 
in some cases, much less dangerous) bypass roads carry the tertiary designation 
because of legal definitions. 

A) the primary is a nationally recognized route, while the bypass was built by 
regional or local authorities, and the primary route is effectively replaced

B) both the primary and bypass routes are tagged as the same route and shield 
ref, and both follow routes that turn left and right at signals, meaning 
rendering color is the most important thing in Japan, in order to follow roads 
properly. 

I have set some of these "primary on paper only roads" to tertiary or 
unclassified in extreme situations where the road is almost impassible and 
dangerous - and totally unsigned as a way to deter people from using it, the 
bypass being the safer and signed route - but this is not a great way to handle 
it either. 

Trying to balance road classification, lanes, and legal designations is 
difficult when local customs and colors are not able to be managed in OSM/carto 
renderings.

Javbw. 
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[Tagging] 'ongoing' U-turn restriction

[Martijn van Exel]

Hey all,

Apparently there are roads that have an 'ongoing' U-turn restriction, see
the sign here for example: http://openstreetcam.org/details/10053/304

I know how to tag this for an intersection but not how to do it for an
entire way where U-turns are prohibited.

Any guidance?

Thanks,
Martijn van Exel
http://mvexel.github.io/
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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[ksg]

> Am 07.12.2016 um 21:34 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer :
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> for me, amenity=cafe implies tables and chairs, many bars don't have tables, 
> just a bar. 


I admit that an Italian bar is different from a german cafe in almost each and 
every way ;)

But amongst the alternatives „bar“ „pub“ and „cafe“, wouldn’t be the latter the 
best choice?

Klaus (geow)



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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 21:00, ksg  wrote:
> 
> I guess caffe (espresso) is also the most _important_ served item and 
> justifies amenity=cafe for an Italian „bar"


for me, amenity=cafe implies tables and chairs, many bars don't have tables, 
just a bar. There's a wide range of places that call themselves "bar", often 
they are combinations: bar pasticceria (pastry), bar caffè, bar tabacchi, 
ristorante bar caffè, bar gelateria, bar tavola calda, 
Some are indeed better tagged with amenity=cafe

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[ksg]

> Am 07.12.2016 um 11:26 schrieb Volker Schmidt :
> The situation in Italy is similar.
> In my area (Veneto) they are mostly tagged as amenity=cafe, I suppose that is 
> because this is the most frequently served item.


I guess caffe (espresso) is also the most _important_ served item and justifies 
amenity=cafe for an Italian „bar"
"
> For me, the the English word "pub" indicates a place where the most 
> frequently served item is beer, not food. 

+1





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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[Volker Schmidt]

The situation in Italy is similar.
In my area (Veneto) they are mostly tagged as amenity=cafe, I suppose that
is because this is the most frequently served item.

For me, the the English word "pub" indicates a place where the most
frequently served item is beer, not food.
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Re: [Tagging] Mediterranean "bar" aka pub

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 02:32, Alejandro S.  wrote:
> 
> That looks like the definition of a Spanish "bar", why not use the tag that 
> describe that concept, amenity=pub.


if amenity=pub fits the thing you want to tag, just use this tag


> 
> That exception looks like it was written many years ago by user 
> dieterdreist[3] but I don't know if it was discussed before or after the 
> writing in the wiki.


It was discussed, and it documents tagging practice in Italy.

cheers,
Martin ___
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