Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 14-Feb-17 01:44 PM, John Willis wrote:


Javbw


On Feb 14, 2017, at 5:43 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mappers can enter miles instead of kilometres .. so they too should be able to 
enter the units they have into the capacity of the laundry machine.

Yea, because it is well known that they correlate, like C and F.

The loads idea requires people to actually know what the ratio is for mapping 
and the data user to be able to show the correct unit for the user. Also, the 
load might vary a bit and not line up cleanly, so it might display a 1.2 load 
washer or something.


I don't think the variation would worry most people ...it is just an indication 
of how much maybe put into the machine.
Not many people measure their load into the machine.:-)



Maybe it is best to have a single unit (kg?) and have the data provider 
translate the information into loads, but it seems that mapping a million 
washing machines that are all labeled in one unit for one continent in its 
native unit is good for mappers to get it mapped correctly.


The mappers need to be able to enter the data they have directly, in what ever 
units they have, this minimises any possibility of input error.

Any calculation should be done by the data user .. into whatever units they 
desire.
Correlation between the units should not be handled by 1,000,002 mappers .. 
they may have different ideas of the correlation.
This helps in that there is only one area of calculation .. and that can be 
easily corrected if required.
Where no conversion is needed, say cu ft to cu ft, then there will be no 
calculation .. and this would probably be the case for a local map.
 



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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 14-Feb-17 01:33 PM, John Willis wrote:





On Feb 13, 2017, at 6:02 PM, Tristan Anderson  
wrote:

I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing 
machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been 
manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that will 
ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how big or how 
small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load

Everyone's foot is always 1 foot long...

Uhh. No. It became a measurable unit in places.  like a foot.



Err in the old days .. it was the Kings Foot.
If you wanted to buy .. wait for a mature King, sell with a young King (smaller 
foot .. makes things look bigger).

Now the cubit ... that would be thePharaohs  forearm...

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 14, 2017, at 5:43 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Mappers can enter miles instead of kilometres .. so they too should be able 
> to enter the units they have into the capacity of the laundry machine.

Yea, because it is well known that they correlate, like C and F. 

The loads idea requires people to actually know what the ratio is for mapping 
and the data user to be able to show the correct unit for the user. Also, the 
load might vary a bit and not line up cleanly, so it might display a 1.2 load 
washer or something.

Maybe it is best to have a single unit (kg?) and have the data provider 
translate the information into loads, but it seems that mapping a million 
washing machines that are all labeled in one unit for one continent in its 
native unit is good for mappers to get it mapped correctly. 
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

> On Feb 13, 2017, at 7:50 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in campsite 
> laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM.

Neither do I, it was an an aside about laundromats in general. 

That is why the extended campsite has them listed as an amenity of the camp. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

> On Feb 13, 2017, at 6:02 PM, Tristan Anderson  
> wrote:
> 
> I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing 
> machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been 
> manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that will 
> ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how big or 
> how small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load

Everyone's foot is always 1 foot long... 

Uhh. No. It became a measurable unit in places.  like a foot. 

Javbw 
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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Warin]

On 14-Feb-17 09:33 AM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:

On 13.02.2017 22:28, Volker Schmidt wrote:

A dead hedge is not to be confused with a hedge woven from pieces of
wood. It's function is much less that of a barrier than that of a
natural habitat for some animal species, especially in the context of
organic farming [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge


We can conclude that the English description of being a dead hedge is 
a misnomer. 


How is that conclusion reached?

The term 'dead hedge' appears to be legitimate. And to me they are 
barriers in that they are not something I'd like to walk over.


So we could propagate the German term Benjeshecke [2] to be used as 
benjes_hedge, named after the inventor Hermann Benjes [3].


[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjeshecke
[3] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Benjes


Surely that depends on what is being tagged.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - CoreIndoor

[Tobias Knerr]

Hello Pavel,

On 08.02.2017 09:09, Pavel Zbytovský wrote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/CoreIndoor


as one of the authors of Simple Indoor Tagging (SIT), I'd like to 
comment on each of your proposed changes. So please excuse the wall of 
text below. :)


First, thank you for updating your proposal regarding special floor 
numbering. Using tags on the indoor=level elements is something that we 
always intended to be possible with SIT, and level:ref seems like a very 
good use case of that. I have, therefore, updated the SIT page to 
include the level:ref key along with some example values based on your 
proposal.


Now to the other points:

(1.) Deprecate min_level and max_level

Here I would be interested in your rationale for this change. It doesn't 
allow us to map things that weren't already possible, so while I don't 
see any big problems with it, it also seems unnecessary to me at the moment.


As for non_existent_levels, detecting these algorithmically can be 
tricky due to the use of level ranges. For example, you might find a 
feature with level=2-4 in a building that lacks level 3.


(2.) Corridors/stairs can use ways

This is probably where opinions will vary the most. The decision in 
favour of area tagging was one of the most fundamental that we made when 
drafting SIT. Because of this, using highway ways for corridors feels 
like a big change away from SIT, not merely an extension.


Consider that in non-OSM indoor maps, using areas is already 
commonplace. While there are various reasons for this, the most 
important consideration is probably that indoor spaces are a lot more 
irregularly shaped than your typical road. And based on my own attempts 
at indoor mapping, I feel this is really the case – even utilitarian 
buildings have sufficiently interesting geometry and interconnectedness 
that compressing them into lines doesn't do them justice.


When you combine the cartographic tradition of floor plans with the 
general trend towards micro-mapping that we are seeing in OSM, using 
areas for an advanced mapping topic such as indoor maps seems like a 
logical choice. And because we are more or less starting with a blank 
slate, we don't really need to be backward compatible with highway 
tagging. In fact, agreeing on using areas right from the start lets 
developers of indoor apps build on that assumption.


(3.) Decimal level numbers

This proposed extension touches on some open questions that will 
eventually need to be addressed, but I feel the underlying problem 
deserves a more thorough treatment.


One big issue, for example, is transitioning between adjacent buildings 
or building parts that have levels at different heights, but are 
connected to each other. With the image in this section, you hint that 
your proposal might be used to map situations like these. However, it 
doesn't really work that easily unless the levels have an identical 
height of "1" in the two building parts (which is far from given).


From a data consumer perspective, there also needs to be a distinction 
between "real" fractional levels (that would e.g. be listed in a floor 
plan), and decimal levels that appear in the level tag of features such 
as a flight of stairs, but don't function as an identifiable level.


Overall, there is no straightforward solution to non-integer levels that 
I know of, which is why we intentionally omitted it from SIT for now. I 
would have expected to tackle it once the community has more mature 
tools and broader experience with indoor mapping. This topic, if 
explored fully, would probably justify an entire proposal on its own.


(4.) More robust multi-level features and repeated features

As far as I can see, the changes in this section are mostly consequences 
of the decimal level numbers. Am I missing something?


Thanks for reading, and I hope we can work together to make indoor 
mapping in OSM more popular!


-- Tobias

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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 13.02.2017 22:28, Volker Schmidt wrote:

A dead hedge is not to be confused with a hedge woven from pieces of
wood. It's function is much less that of a barrier than that of a
natural habitat for some animal species, especially in the context of
organic farming [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge


We can conclude that the English description of being a dead hedge is a 
misnomer. So we could propagate the German term Benjeshecke [2] to be 
used as benjes_hedge, named after the inventor Hermann Benjes [3].


[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjeshecke
[3] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Benjes

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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Volker Schmidt]

A dead hedge is not to be confused with a hedge woven from pieces of wood.
It's function is much less that of a barrier than that of a natural habitat
for some animal species, especially in the context of organic farming [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge
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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Andy Townsend]

On 13/02/2017 20:46, Chris Hill wrote:


It's a fence.



+1 to that.

Despite both of the refs on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge 
being English ones, it's not an English term I recognise at all, and it 
could have been designed to confuse.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Tristan Anderson]

barrier=dead_hedge feels more correct to me than barrier=fence 
fence_type=dead_hedge


From: Chris Hill 
Sent: February 13, 2017 3:46 PM
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge


Do we need a new term? Surely a wooden fence is made of dead trees?

It's a fence.

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 13/02/2017 20:41, John F. Eldredge wrote:

Well, I just learned a term I didn't know. I had assumed you were referring to 
a regular, planted hedge in which all of the bushes or trees had died. Yes, I 
suppose we do need a separate tag for a barrier composed of cut branches.

On February 13, 2017 2:35:41 PM Marc Gemis 
 wrote:

Sorry, I looked up the word on wikipedia 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge and thought it was a common phrase 
for branches that form a barrier. So it is not about a plant that is dead but 
about a human made barrier mainly made from branches

m

Op 13 feb. 2017 21:17 schreef "Chris Hill" 
>:
Wait until spring to see if it is really dead? :-)

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 13/02/2017 20:13, Marc Gemis wrote:

How do you map a dead hedge?
As barrier=hedge or barrier=fence with some appropriate fence_type e.g. 
dead_hedge ?

m


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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Chris Hill]

Do we need a new term? Surely a wooden fence is made of dead trees?

It's a fence.

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 13/02/2017 20:41, John F. Eldredge wrote:


Well, I just learned a term I didn't know. I had assumed you were 
referring to a regular, planted hedge in which all of the bushes or 
trees had died. Yes, I suppose we do need a separate tag for a barrier 
composed of cut branches.


On February 13, 2017 2:35:41 PM Marc Gemis  wrote:

Sorry, I looked up the word on wikipedia 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge and thought it was a 
common phrase for branches that form a barrier. So it is not about a 
plant that is dead but about a human made barrier mainly made from 
branches


m


Op 13 feb. 2017 21:17 schreef "Chris Hill" >:


Wait until spring to see if it is really dead? :-)

-- 
cheers

Chris Hill (chillly)

On 13/02/2017 20:13, Marc Gemis wrote:


How do you map a dead hedge?
As barrier=hedge or barrier=fence with some appropriate
fence_type e.g. dead_hedge ?

m



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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 14-Feb-17 01:30 AM, John Willis wrote:



Javbw

On Feb 13, 2017, at 3:10 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size .. 
somewhere?)


laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20
laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20

laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20

laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8

laundry:shoe_washer=2


Great!

Uhh... sidewasher was my stupidity.
Front loader is the correct term.

All the US residential top-loading washing machines and the old 
laundromat ones I have seen I have seen all have agitators, the thing 
that sticks up in the center.


Most of the residential washers in Japan do not. Their drum is too 
narrow (40cm?) To have an agitator. The bottom of the drum spins (a 
very weak agitator), but there is no true column agitator.


http://www.cypick.com/item/10kg-auto-top-toshiba-washing-machine-mesin-basuh-refurbish-recondition-.html

 Some people want an agitator machine for washing heavily soiled 
clothes or cleaning cloths, so some laundromats have a single 
top-loading agitator in the corner here.


Maybe they are common throughout the world, but such it was the first 
time I have seen a small and agitator-free washing machine.


I think I had one 'agitator' machine that not only had a rotating 
central column but the drum too moved.. lots of things to ware out. 
Replaced with a front loader .. my cloths last a lot longer.
Not all agitators are central columns .. the hover twin tub has the 
agitator on a wall. These are popular where water is in short supply as 
the spin tub waste water can be put back into the wash tub thus saving 
water.


So I think the top loading/front loading should be a tag that can be 
used. Then if wanted further details on the machine could be detailed?
Personally ... I am usually just looking for a washing machine .. any 
washing machine to get the mud off!




Since there are varying styles of machines, and some are common one 
place and absent others, then I would like to tag them differently. 
And the idea of separating capacity seems good too. I suggest 
supporting the three common methods (kg/load/volume) because people 
will have no idea how to tag, interpret or understand the information. 
People tagging or looking for "load" won't know what a KG of laundry is.


Mappers can enter miles instead of kilometres .. so they too should be 
able to enter the units they have into the capacity of the laundry machine.
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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[John F. Eldredge]

Well, I just learned a term I didn't know. I had assumed you were referring 
to a regular, planted hedge in which all of the bushes or trees had died. 
Yes, I suppose we do need a separate tag for a barrier composed of cut 
branches.



On February 13, 2017 2:35:41 PM Marc Gemis  wrote:


Sorry, I looked up the word on wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge and thought it was a common
phrase for branches that form a barrier. So it is not about a plant that is
dead but about a human made barrier mainly made from branches

m

Op 13 feb. 2017 21:17 schreef "Chris Hill" :


Wait until spring to see if it is really dead? :-)

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 13/02/2017 20:13, Marc Gemis wrote:



How do you map a dead hedge?
As barrier=hedge or barrier=fence with some appropriate fence_type e.g.
dead_hedge ?

m





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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Marc Gemis]

Sorry, I looked up the word on wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge and thought it was a common
phrase for branches that form a barrier. So it is not about a plant that is
dead but about a human made barrier mainly made from branches

m

Op 13 feb. 2017 21:17 schreef "Chris Hill" :

> Wait until spring to see if it is really dead? :-)
>
> --
> cheers
> Chris Hill (chillly)
>
> On 13/02/2017 20:13, Marc Gemis wrote:
>
>>
>> How do you map a dead hedge?
>> As barrier=hedge or barrier=fence with some appropriate fence_type e.g.
>> dead_hedge ?
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 13-Feb-17 10:29 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2017-02-13 11:50 GMT+01:00 Volker Schmidt >:


I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in
campsite laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM. It's
difficult to establish in the first place and the data is very
perishable. The machines have a very limited life span. Data
maintenance will be a serious problem.



industrial quality washing machines have an extended life span 
compared to home machines, as they are still built to be serviced, 
while home machines are built to be thrown away or have complex 
components replaced (instead of disassembling into small parts and 
replace only what has failed). Data maintance is possible for every 
kind of data, but it will done only for those data where people are 
interested in, if people are interested in tagging the details of 
washing machine availability, why not (I'd prefer to have these 
extended details on the laundry room, not on the whole campsite).




Usually the replacement machine would be of a similar size (other wise 
it won't fit the space).


If there is no suggested method of tagging it then mappers will use 
their own individual method to tag it and this leads to all sorts of 
problems.
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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Warin]

On 14-Feb-17 07:18 AM, Mike Thompson wrote:



On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Marc Gemis > wrote:


How do you map a dead hedge?

barrier=hedge
condition=dead
?



Same as a dead railway?
disused=yes
?

A dead plant will eventually collapse and disappear. Dead trees can take 
quite a while to disintegrate.
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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Mike Thompson]

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> How do you map a dead hedge?
>
barrier=hedge
condition=dead
?
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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[John F. Eldredge]

Do we have any other cases where dead vegetation is tagged differently from 
living vegetation?



On February 13, 2017 2:14:01 PM Marc Gemis  wrote:


How do you map a dead hedge?
As barrier=hedge or barrier=fence with some appropriate fence_type e.g.
dead_hedge ?

m



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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

[Chris Hill]

Wait until spring to see if it is really dead? :-)

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 13/02/2017 20:13, Marc Gemis wrote:


How do you map a dead hedge?
As barrier=hedge or barrier=fence with some appropriate fence_type 
e.g. dead_hedge ?


m





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[Tagging] Dead hedge

[Marc Gemis]

How do you map a dead hedge?
As barrier=hedge or barrier=fence with some appropriate fence_type e.g.
dead_hedge ?

m
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 13, 2017, at 3:10 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size .. somewhere?)
> 
> laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20
> laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20
> 
> laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20
> 
> laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8
> 
> laundry:shoe_washer=2

Great!

Uhh... sidewasher was my stupidity. 
Front loader is the correct term. 

All the US residential top-loading washing machines and the old laundromat ones 
I have seen I have seen all have agitators, the thing that sticks up in the 
center. 

Most of the residential washers in Japan do not. Their drum is too narrow 
(40cm?) To have an agitator. The bottom of the drum spins (a very weak 
agitator), but there is no true column agitator.

http://www.cypick.com/item/10kg-auto-top-toshiba-washing-machine-mesin-basuh-refurbish-recondition-.html

 Some people want an agitator machine for washing heavily soiled clothes or 
cleaning cloths, so some laundromats have a single top-loading agitator in the 
corner here. 

Maybe they are common throughout the world, but such it was the first time I 
have seen a small and agitator-free washing machine. 

Since there are varying styles of machines, and some are common one place and 
absent others, then I would like to tag them differently. And the idea of 
separating capacity seems good too. I suggest supporting the three common 
methods (kg/load/volume) because people will have no idea how to tag, interpret 
or understand the information. People tagging or looking for "load" won't know 
what a KG of laundry is. 

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Re: [Tagging] lanes=3 + lanes:forward/backward=1 for "semi-divided" roads?

[Topographe Fou]

For your interest and according to Taginfo:

access:lanes > 4269 use
access:lanes:both_ways > 726 use
access:lanes:both_ways=no > 695 use (+ 24 use of value "no|no" )

Used mainly in central North America and Germany.

Yours, 

LeTopographeFou


  Message original  
De: letopographe...@gmail.com
Envoyé: 12 février 2017 12:47 PM
À: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Objet: Re: [Tagging] lanes=3 + lanes:forward/backward=1 for "semi-divided" 
roads?

Marc, it looks like you propose to tag it as a lane which can be used to turn 
which is not what Roadsguy wants to do (if I get it right...).

If the central line can't be used but exists I would put

lanes:both_ways=1
access:lanes:both_ways=no

LeTopographeFou 

  Message original  
De: marc.ge...@gmail.com
Envoyé: 12 février 2017 7:40 AM
À: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Répondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Objet: Re: [Tagging] lanes=3 + lanes:forward/backward=1 for "semi-divided" 
roads?

You could add lanes:both_ways=1 turn:lanes:both_ways=left

regards

m

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 5:39 AM, Albert Pundt  wrote:
> Consider High Street in downtown Carlisle, PA. It is one lane each way, with
> a wide space as wide as a travel lane in the middle, but not used for
> anything such as a center turning lane. Tagging this with just lanes=2 seems
> wrong since it fails to take into account the lane width separating the two
> travel lanes, and since there is no raised physical divider, it doesn't seem
> right to mark it as a dual-carriageway road either. I've seen lanes=3 used
> along with lanes:forward=1 and lanes:backward=1, but that seems like it
> might be confusing.
>
> What, if anything, is the proper way to tag roads like this?
>
> --Roadsguy
>
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Re: [Tagging] lanes=3 + lanes:forward/backward=1 for "semi-divided" roads?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-12 21:56 GMT+01:00 Mark Wagner :

> I'd consider mapping it as a dual carriageway.  I don't know what the
> law is in Pennsylvania, but here in Idaho, a doubled double-yellow
> line is the legal equivalent of a physical barrier: you are not allowed
> to drive across it for any reason.
>


you shouldn't do it, because it would be inserting wrong data: separate
ways indicate separate carriageways in OSM. There's a big difference
between not allowed and not possible.

There a divider tag proposed (but apperently inactive):
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Divider
apparently this tag has been started to being used since it was marked as
abandoned in 2008:


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-13 11:50 GMT+01:00 Volker Schmidt :

> I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in campsite
> laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM. It's difficult to
> establish in the first place and the data is very perishable. The machines
> have a very limited life span. Data maintenance will be a serious problem.



industrial quality washing machines have an extended life span compared to
home machines, as they are still built to be serviced, while home machines
are built to be thrown away or have complex components replaced (instead of
disassembling into small parts and replace only what has failed). Data
maintance is possible for every kind of data, but it will done only for
those data where people are interested in, if people are interested in
tagging the details of washing machine availability, why not (I'd prefer to
have these extended details on the laundry room, not on the whole campsite).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Dave Swarthout]

"I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing
machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been
manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that
will ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how
big or how small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load. "

Me too. LOL

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in campsite
> laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM. It's difficult to
> establish in the first place and the data is very perishable. The machines
> have a very limited life span. Data maintenance will be a serious problem.
>
> On 13 Feb 2017 10:04 a.m., "Tristan Anderson" 
> wrote:
>
>> I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing
>> machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been
>> manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that
>> will ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how
>> big or how small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load.  If I am wrong,
>> please quantify how much is in one load, in any unit of measurement you
>> like: volume, mass or anything else, metric or imperial.  No search engine
>> can seem to give me a straight answer.
>>
>>
>> I see LG makes a "two-load" machine that can do two loads at once in
>> separate compartments (such as whites/colours) but that doesn't seem to be
>> what's referred to here.
>> --
>> *From:* Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* February 13, 2017 1:10 AM
>> *To:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan
>> sites
>>
>> On 13-Feb-17 03:42 PM, John Willis wrote:
>> >
>> > Javbw
>> >
>> >> On Feb 13, 2017, at 5:38 AM, Mark Wagner 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
>> >> typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
>> >> have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
>> >> "triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
>> >> for things like quilts or sleeping bags.
>> > Since it can be converted to Kg, it could be normalized, or a US
>> tagging scheme used, since there are tons of laundromats in the US:
>> >
>> > Laundromat:US:1load_agitator_washer=20
>> > Laundromat:US:2load_agitator_washer=2
>> > Laundromat:US:5load_sidewasher=1
>> >
>> > I wonder what the rest of the world uses for laundry measurement -
>> pieces? Loads? Weight?
>>
>> I would think it is best to use the same practices used for other units
>> ...
>>
>> The default should be SI units ... like kilometre km for distance, but
>> other units like miles can be used if the unit is appended.
>>
>> Washing machines sizing looks like they use mass (kg) for some places
>> (UK, Australia, NZ), pounds for some (USA) and volume (cubic foot) in other
>> places (USA?)... so that is a bit confusing.
>>
>> See the web links below for examples of size units.
>>
>>
>> I would think that the same tag values should be used so
>>
>> laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size ..
>> somewhere?)
>>
>> laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20
>>
>> laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20
>>
>> laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20
>>
>> laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8
>>
>> laundry:shoe_washer=2
>>
>> --
>>
>> I have never heard the terms 'sidewasher' .. I assume this is what I call
>> front loading?
>> UK - front loader https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washi
>> ng-Machines-Front-Load/b?ie=UTF8=494926031
>> Amazon.co.uk: Front-Load - Washing Machines: Large Appliances
>> 
>> www.amazon.co.uk
>> Online shopping for Front-Load - Washing Machines from a great selection
>> at Large Appliances Store.
>>
>>
>>
>> I note that front loaders are common in the domestic area .. but
>> commercially (in Laundromats) top loaders are more common.
>>
>> Agitator I have heard of .,.. but that is a 'top loader'?
>>
>> USA - front loader and top loader https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=n
>> b_sb_ss_i_5_10?url=search-alias%3Daps=washing
>> +machine=washing+ma%2Caps%2C428=30REZUSOII599
>>
>>
>>
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>> lists.openstreetmap.org
>> Your email address: Your name (optional): You may enter a privacy
>> password below. This provides only mild security, but should prevent others
>> from messing with ...
>>
>>
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>>
>>
> 

Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Volker Schmidt]

I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in campsite
laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM. It's difficult to
establish in the first place and the data is very perishable. The machines
have a very limited life span. Data maintenance will be a serious problem.

On 13 Feb 2017 10:04 a.m., "Tristan Anderson" 
wrote:

> I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing
> machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been
> manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that
> will ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how
> big or how small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load.  If I am wrong,
> please quantify how much is in one load, in any unit of measurement you
> like: volume, mass or anything else, metric or imperial.  No search engine
> can seem to give me a straight answer.
>
>
> I see LG makes a "two-load" machine that can do two loads at once in
> separate compartments (such as whites/colours) but that doesn't seem to be
> what's referred to here.
> --
> *From:* Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* February 13, 2017 1:10 AM
> *To:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan
> sites
>
> On 13-Feb-17 03:42 PM, John Willis wrote:
> >
> > Javbw
> >
> >> On Feb 13, 2017, at 5:38 AM, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
> >> typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
> >> have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
> >> "triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
> >> for things like quilts or sleeping bags.
> > Since it can be converted to Kg, it could be normalized, or a US tagging
> scheme used, since there are tons of laundromats in the US:
> >
> > Laundromat:US:1load_agitator_washer=20
> > Laundromat:US:2load_agitator_washer=2
> > Laundromat:US:5load_sidewasher=1
> >
> > I wonder what the rest of the world uses for laundry measurement -
> pieces? Loads? Weight?
>
> I would think it is best to use the same practices used for other units ...
>
> The default should be SI units ... like kilometre km for distance, but
> other units like miles can be used if the unit is appended.
>
> Washing machines sizing looks like they use mass (kg) for some places (UK,
> Australia, NZ), pounds for some (USA) and volume (cubic foot) in other
> places (USA?)... so that is a bit confusing.
>
> See the web links below for examples of size units.
>
>
> I would think that the same tag values should be used so
>
> laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size ..
> somewhere?)
>
> laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20
>
> laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20
>
> laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20
>
> laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8
>
> laundry:shoe_washer=2
>
> --
>
> I have never heard the terms 'sidewasher' .. I assume this is what I call
> front loading?
> UK - front loader https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washing-Machines-Front-Load/b?
> ie=UTF8=494926031
> Amazon.co.uk: Front-Load - Washing Machines: Large Appliances
> 
> www.amazon.co.uk
> Online shopping for Front-Load - Washing Machines from a great selection
> at Large Appliances Store.
>
>
>
> I note that front loaders are common in the domestic area .. but
> commercially (in Laundromats) top loaders are more common.
>
> Agitator I have heard of .,.. but that is a 'top loader'?
>
> USA - front loader and top loader https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=
> nb_sb_ss_i_5_10?url=search-alias%3Daps=
> washing+machine=washing+ma%2Caps%2C428=30REZUSOII599
>
>
>
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> Tagging Info Page - OpenStreetMap
> 
> lists.openstreetmap.org
> Your email address: Your name (optional): You may enter a privacy password
> below. This provides only mild security, but should prevent others from
> messing with ...
>
>
>
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Tristan Anderson]

I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing 
machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been 
manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that will 
ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how big or how 
small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load.  If I am wrong, please quantify how 
much is in one load, in any unit of measurement you like: volume, mass or 
anything else, metric or imperial.  No search engine can seem to give me a 
straight answer.


I see LG makes a "two-load" machine that can do two loads at once in separate 
compartments (such as whites/colours) but that doesn't seem to be what's 
referred to here.


From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
Sent: February 13, 2017 1:10 AM
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

On 13-Feb-17 03:42 PM, John Willis wrote:
>
> Javbw
>
>> On Feb 13, 2017, at 5:38 AM, Mark Wagner  wrote:
>>
>>
>> That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
>> typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
>> have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
>> "triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
>> for things like quilts or sleeping bags.
> Since it can be converted to Kg, it could be normalized, or a US tagging 
> scheme used, since there are tons of laundromats in the US:
>
> Laundromat:US:1load_agitator_washer=20
> Laundromat:US:2load_agitator_washer=2
> Laundromat:US:5load_sidewasher=1
>
> I wonder what the rest of the world uses for laundry measurement - pieces? 
> Loads? Weight?

I would think it is best to use the same practices used for other units ...

The default should be SI units ... like kilometre km for distance, but other 
units like miles can be used if the unit is appended.

Washing machines sizing looks like they use mass (kg) for some places (UK, 
Australia, NZ), pounds for some (USA) and volume (cubic foot) in other places 
(USA?)... so that is a bit confusing.

See the web links below for examples of size units.


I would think that the same tag values should be used so

laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size .. somewhere?)

laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20

laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20

laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20

laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8

laundry:shoe_washer=2

--

I have never heard the terms 'sidewasher' .. I assume this is what I call front 
loading?
UK - front loader 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washing-Machines-Front-Load/b?ie=UTF8=494926031
Amazon.co.uk: Front-Load - Washing Machines: Large 
Appliances
www.amazon.co.uk
Online shopping for Front-Load - Washing Machines from a great selection at 
Large Appliances Store.




I note that front loaders are common in the domestic area .. but commercially 
(in Laundromats) top loaders are more common.

Agitator I have heard of .,.. but that is a 'top loader'?

USA - front loader and top loader 
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_5_10?url=search-alias%3Daps=washing+machine=washing+ma%2Caps%2C428=30REZUSOII599



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

[François Lacombe]

Hi Warin,

2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

>
> In Australia;
> Heavy industry gets 3 phases.
>

Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.
Here 3-phases for heavy industry :
https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases each) :
>From public power grid :
https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1
To traction substation :
https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1



> A few houses may get 2 phases if their load is very large .. but it is
> unusual and a safety concern, no single room should have more than one
> phase.
> Even fewer houses get 3 phase .. usually where the workshop has a
> requirement for a 3 phase motor/furnace.
>
+1 same here, 3-phases fed households tend to disapear while current usage
is single phase + neutral pole.


> Transformers will have an input voltage and an output voltage, usually
> these voltages are different.
>

Sure, currently voltage=* expects a list with upper voltage;lower voltage.
Or voltage-up and voltage-down can be used. I'm in favor of voltage:primary
+ voltage:secondary (+ voltage:tertiary if transformer got more than 2
interfaces).
Another proposal will be completed later for this.


> Most of the time these voltages will be on the lines connected to the
> transformer (and the pole) and would be redundant.
>
Yes they have to, but a pole can carry several lines or circuits in the
same line. If lines/circuits are operated at different voltages, which one
will serve the transformer(s) exactly ?
Furthermore, even if a single line is supported by the pole, which side of
the transformer is connected to it ?
I'm thinking of a pole carrying a "low voltage" line used for distribution,
hosting a transformer at the top of it and the transformer gets its power
from an underground "high voltage" cable rising up on the pole itself. Then
you'll need to know the voltages of both cable and line AND the voltages of
transformer's sides to say the overhead "low voltage" line is fed wheter by
the primary or secondary interface.

It's a bit complex and I see no redundancy here.


>
> Switches ... usually used for isolation.
>

Can you elaborate a bit more please ?


All the best 


François
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