Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

2017-03-05 Thread Rafael Avila Coya 

I generally agree with your view.

The wiki [1] already says: "An effective way to tag timezone information 
is to add it to administration boundaries of countries or in the case of 
larger countries smaller administrative boundaries such as states and 
territories. (Do not create stand-alone boundaries for time zones in OSM.)"


I would keep the timezone data in OSM, but doing it that way: adding the 
timezone tag to boundary relations (most countries, some states and few 
level-6), except for those very rare cases it doesn't follow an admin 
boundary.


Cheers,

Rafael.

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:timezone

On 06/03/17 01:30, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

   I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones.

There are currently 80 relations in OSM tagged as boundary=timezone
using between them over 10,000 ways.

I think that mapping these time zones as geometries has several issues:

1. It introduces yet another un-observable object type into OSM. When I
asked about the source of the data, one person quipped "well you can
observe it on a local clock", but the people adding time zone boundaries
don't seem to actually do that - they copy the information from somewhere.

2. It is for the most part unnecessary noise; almost all time zone
boundaries run along administrative boundaries, so you could just add a
timezone tag to the administrative entity instead of mapping a whole
separate geometry.

3. It complicates editing; anyone touching one of the aforementioned
10,000 ways (which are for the most part also used by admin boundaries)
will be confronted with the time zone relation and will have to decide
what to do with it.

4. It creates very large polygons that may be difficult to edit.

Here's a list of time zones currently mapped in OSM (with relation ID)

3563652 Московское время
3563678 Екатеринбургское время
3563726 Красноярское время
3563727 Омское время
3563885 Иркутское время
3563886 Якутское время
3563937 Владивостокское время
4297465 Самарское время
6426325 Cherry County - Chicago TZ part
6426796 Idaho Denver TZ part
6426797 Idaho Los Angeles TZ part
6428675 Alaska - Timezone America/Adak
6428690 Alaska - Timezone America/Anchorage
6428730 Alaska - Timezone America/Yakutat
6428802 Alaska - Timezone America/Juneau
6428803 Alaska - Timezone America/Sitka
6428944 Canada - Timezone America/Pangnirtung
6430296 Malaysia - Kuala Lumpur Timezone
6430370 Kiribati - Kiritimati timezone
6430371 Kiribati - Tarava timezone
6430484 Greenland - timezone America/Danmarkshavn area
6430503 Greenland - timezone America/Thule area
6430514 Greenland - timezone America/GodThab area
6430515 Greenland - timezone America/Scoresbysund area
6430658 Хандыгское время
6440860 America/Tijuana Timezone
6440942 America/Merida Timezone
6440955 America/Cancun Timezone
6440975 America/Bahia_Banderas Timezone
6441066 America/Mazatlan Timezone
6442501 America/Mexico_City Timezone
6442514 America/Santa_Isabel Timezone
6442531 America/Hermosillo Timezone
6442686 America/Matamoros Timezone
6442687 America/Ojinaga Timezone
6442693 America/Chihuahua Timezone
6442726 America/Monterrey Timezone
6442820 America/Edmonton Timezone part
6442821 America/Regina Timezone
6442822 America/Winnipeg Timezone part
6445625 America/Eirunepe Timezone
6445626 America/Manaus Timezone
6445682 America/Belem Timezone
6445683 America/Santarem Timezone
6445860 Asia/Dushanbe Timezone part
6446092 Arizona - America/Phoenix Timezone
6446108 America/Atikokan Timezone
6446109 America/Winnipeg Timezone
6446170 America/Cambridge_Bay Timezone
6446189 America/Rankin_Inlet Timezone
6446190 America/Resolute Timezone
6451096 Atlantic/Azores Timezone
6451097 Atlantic/Madeira Timezone
6451098 Europe/Lisbon Timezone
6451458 America/Coral_Harbour Timezone
6451459 America/Iqaluit Timezone
6483867 Ontario - America/Toronto Timezone
6483978 America/Creston Timezone
6483979 America/Dawson_Creek Timezone
6483980 America/Edmonton Timezone
6483981 America/Vancouver Timezone
6485969 Asia/Sakhalin Timezone
6491030 America/Argentina/Buenos_Aires Timezone
6491031 America/Argentina/Catamarca Timezone
6491032 America/Argentina/Rio_Gallegos Timezone
6491033 America/Argentina/Salta Timezone
6491034 America/Argentina/Ushuaia Timezone
6491133 Atlantic/Canary Timezone
6491134 Europe/Madrid Timezone
6491494 America/Chicago Timezone
6496417 America/New_York Timezone
6496587 America/Indiana/Indianapolis Timezone
6496665 America/Boise Timezone
6496694 America/Los_Angeles Timezone
6498476 America/Menominee Timezone
6498563 America/Detroit Timezone
6498592 America/Nipigon Timezone
6498593 America/Thunder_Bay Timezone
6594626 Магаданское время
6594635 Камчатское время

And here's them in a map:

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/tz.jpg

Now when you overlay the administrative boundaries on levels 2 and 4,
only very few lines remain:

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/tz4.jpg

And when you go up to admin level 6:

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/tz6.jpg

Assuming

Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

2017-03-05 Thread Warin 
When I get that message (and I hope I have overcome the issue.. at least 
for now) it is because I sent the message from a non OSM registered 
email address.
I simply go to the web address and cancel that email .. and then repost 
from the my correct OSM email address ...
that should mean less work for the moderator (hi) and my message gets 
through quicker than waiting for review/approval.


Of more important (in my view) I have made extensive entries on the 
topic of friendly:motorcycle discussion page.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly


On 06-Mar-17 10:23 AM, Thilo Haug wrote:


"Process problems are a pain in the ass. You never, ever want to have 
process problems ...

That's when people start getting really angry at each other."
Linus Torvalds


Am 06.03.2017 um 00:08 schrieb John F. Eldredge:


It is possible that the moderator has a backlog of messages, and 
hasn't reviewed it yet.


On March 5, 2017 5:02:26 PM Thilo Haug  wrote:


There was an automatic reply, saying :

"Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
[...]
Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision."

But that doesn't mean to me the whole mail was "invalid" or won't 
reach the list at all

(didn't "receive notification of the moderator's decision")
I think the message text should be clarified or the process of 
checking those mails.


Betreff:Your message to Tagging awaits moderator approval
Datum:  Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:46:37 +
Von:tagging-ow...@openstreetmap.org
An: th...@gmx.de



Your mail to 'Tagging' with the subject

 Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
accomodations

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

 Post by non-member to a members-only list

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:

 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/confirm/tagging/05723fa27000534321abf9935369c04e2a26adc1


Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:


Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that 
the author is posting to the list but does not appear to be 
receiving messages from it ?


In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and 
English perhaps ?


David


On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug > wrote:



Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html



maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from 
which it was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten 
an automatic reply in this case.



cheers,
Martin


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Mobil: +49 177 3185856


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[Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

2017-03-05 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Hi,

   I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones.

There are currently 80 relations in OSM tagged as boundary=timezone
using between them over 10,000 ways.

I think that mapping these time zones as geometries has several issues:

1. It introduces yet another un-observable object type into OSM. When I
asked about the source of the data, one person quipped "well you can
observe it on a local clock", but the people adding time zone boundaries
don't seem to actually do that - they copy the information from somewhere.

2. It is for the most part unnecessary noise; almost all time zone
boundaries run along administrative boundaries, so you could just add a
timezone tag to the administrative entity instead of mapping a whole
separate geometry.

3. It complicates editing; anyone touching one of the aforementioned
10,000 ways (which are for the most part also used by admin boundaries)
will be confronted with the time zone relation and will have to decide
what to do with it.

4. It creates very large polygons that may be difficult to edit.

Here's a list of time zones currently mapped in OSM (with relation ID)

3563652 Московское время
3563678 Екатеринбургское время
3563726 Красноярское время
3563727 Омское время
3563885 Иркутское время
3563886 Якутское время
3563937 Владивостокское время
4297465 Самарское время
6426325 Cherry County - Chicago TZ part
6426796 Idaho Denver TZ part
6426797 Idaho Los Angeles TZ part
6428675 Alaska - Timezone America/Adak
6428690 Alaska - Timezone America/Anchorage
6428730 Alaska - Timezone America/Yakutat
6428802 Alaska - Timezone America/Juneau
6428803 Alaska - Timezone America/Sitka
6428944 Canada - Timezone America/Pangnirtung
6430296 Malaysia - Kuala Lumpur Timezone
6430370 Kiribati - Kiritimati timezone
6430371 Kiribati - Tarava timezone
6430484 Greenland - timezone America/Danmarkshavn area
6430503 Greenland - timezone America/Thule area
6430514 Greenland - timezone America/GodThab area
6430515 Greenland - timezone America/Scoresbysund area
6430658 Хандыгское время
6440860 America/Tijuana Timezone
6440942 America/Merida Timezone
6440955 America/Cancun Timezone
6440975 America/Bahia_Banderas Timezone
6441066 America/Mazatlan Timezone
6442501 America/Mexico_City Timezone
6442514 America/Santa_Isabel Timezone
6442531 America/Hermosillo Timezone
6442686 America/Matamoros Timezone
6442687 America/Ojinaga Timezone
6442693 America/Chihuahua Timezone
6442726 America/Monterrey Timezone
6442820 America/Edmonton Timezone part
6442821 America/Regina Timezone
6442822 America/Winnipeg Timezone part
6445625 America/Eirunepe Timezone
6445626 America/Manaus Timezone
6445682 America/Belem Timezone
6445683 America/Santarem Timezone
6445860 Asia/Dushanbe Timezone part
6446092 Arizona - America/Phoenix Timezone
6446108 America/Atikokan Timezone
6446109 America/Winnipeg Timezone
6446170 America/Cambridge_Bay Timezone
6446189 America/Rankin_Inlet Timezone
6446190 America/Resolute Timezone
6451096 Atlantic/Azores Timezone
6451097 Atlantic/Madeira Timezone
6451098 Europe/Lisbon Timezone
6451458 America/Coral_Harbour Timezone
6451459 America/Iqaluit Timezone
6483867 Ontario - America/Toronto Timezone
6483978 America/Creston Timezone
6483979 America/Dawson_Creek Timezone
6483980 America/Edmonton Timezone
6483981 America/Vancouver Timezone
6485969 Asia/Sakhalin Timezone
6491030 America/Argentina/Buenos_Aires Timezone
6491031 America/Argentina/Catamarca Timezone
6491032 America/Argentina/Rio_Gallegos Timezone
6491033 America/Argentina/Salta Timezone
6491034 America/Argentina/Ushuaia Timezone
6491133 Atlantic/Canary Timezone
6491134 Europe/Madrid Timezone
6491494 America/Chicago Timezone
6496417 America/New_York Timezone
6496587 America/Indiana/Indianapolis Timezone
6496665 America/Boise Timezone
6496694 America/Los_Angeles Timezone
6498476 America/Menominee Timezone
6498563 America/Detroit Timezone
6498592 America/Nipigon Timezone
6498593 America/Thunder_Bay Timezone
6594626 Магаданское время
6594635 Камчатское время

And here's them in a map:

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/tz.jpg

Now when you overlay the administrative boundaries on levels 2 and 4,
only very few lines remain:

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/tz4.jpg

And when you go up to admin level 6:

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/tz6.jpg

Assuming that these boundaries are actually correct, the only places in
which time zone boundaries don't follow admin boundaries are:

* In South America, the Western boundary of the Manaus timezone and the
Eastern boundary of the Santarem timezone;

* In North America, the line between the Hermosillo and Santa Isabel
timezones, the Phoenix timezone, a small part of the boundary between
the Los Angeles and Boise time zones in Malheur county, the Chicago
Timezone in Cherry County, a piece of the Los Angeles timezone in Idaho,
the line between Vancouver and Dawson Creek respectively Creston
timezones, two incursions into the Regina timezone for Edmonton and
Winnipeg, two micro

Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

2017-03-05 Thread Thilo Haug 
"Process problems are a pain in the ass. You never, ever want to have
process problems ...
That's when people start getting really angry at each other."
Linus Torvalds


Am 06.03.2017 um 00:08 schrieb John F. Eldredge:
>
> It is possible that the moderator has a backlog of messages, and
> hasn't reviewed it yet.
>
> On March 5, 2017 5:02:26 PM Thilo Haug  wrote:
>
>> There was an automatic reply, saying :
>>
>> "Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>> [...]
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision."
>>
>> But that doesn't mean to me the whole mail was "invalid" or won't
>> reach the list at all
>> (didn't "receive notification of the moderator's decision")
>> I think the message text should be clarified or the process of
>> checking those mails.
>>
>> Betreff: Your message to Tagging awaits moderator approval
>> Datum:   Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:46:37 +
>> Von: tagging-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>> An:  th...@gmx.de
>>
>>
>>
>> Your mail to 'Tagging' with the subject
>>
>> Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
>> accomodations
>>
>> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>>
>> The reason it is being held:
>>
>> Post by non-member to a members-only list
>>
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
>> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>>
>> 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/confirm/tagging/05723fa27000534321abf9935369c04e2a26adc1
>>
>>
>> Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:
>>>
>>> Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that
>>> the author is posting to the list but does not appear to be
>>> receiving messages from it ?
>>>
>>> In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and
>>> English perhaps ?
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


 sent from a phone

 On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug > wrote:

> Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html


 maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which
 it was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an
 automatic reply in this case.


 cheers,
 Martin 


 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Thilo Haug
>> Bismarckstr.37
>> 72764 Reutlingen
>>
>> Mobil: +49 177 3185856
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

-- 

Thilo Haug
Bismarckstr.37
72764 Reutlingen

Mobil: +49 177 3185856

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

2017-03-05 Thread Thilo Haug 
That's how it looks like,
but the email should also inform about this possibility.

There should be either a text that it's necessary to resend it when
subscribed to the list
or a possibility (link) to check whether it meanwhile arrived.


Am 06.03.2017 um 00:08 schrieb John F. Eldredge:
>
> It is possible that the moderator has a backlog of messages, and
> hasn't reviewed it yet.
>
> On March 5, 2017 5:02:26 PM Thilo Haug  wrote:
>
>> There was an automatic reply, saying :
>>
>> "Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>> [...]
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision."
>>
>> But that doesn't mean to me the whole mail was "invalid" or won't
>> reach the list at all
>> (didn't "receive notification of the moderator's decision")
>> I think the message text should be clarified or the process of
>> checking those mails.
>>
>> Betreff: Your message to Tagging awaits moderator approval
>> Datum:   Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:46:37 +
>> Von: tagging-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>> An:  th...@gmx.de
>>
>>
>>
>> Your mail to 'Tagging' with the subject
>>
>> Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
>> accomodations
>>
>> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>>
>> The reason it is being held:
>>
>> Post by non-member to a members-only list
>>
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
>> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>>
>> 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/confirm/tagging/05723fa27000534321abf9935369c04e2a26adc1
>>
>>
>> Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:
>>>
>>> Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that
>>> the author is posting to the list but does not appear to be
>>> receiving messages from it ?
>>>
>>> In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and
>>> English perhaps ?
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


 sent from a phone

 On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug > wrote:

> Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html


 maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which
 it was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an
 automatic reply in this case.


 cheers,
 Martin 


 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Thilo Haug
>> Bismarckstr.37
>> 72764 Reutlingen
>>
>> Mobil: +49 177 3185856
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

-- 

Thilo Haug
Bismarckstr.37
72764 Reutlingen

Mobil: +49 177 3185856

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

2017-03-05 Thread John F. Eldredge 
It is possible that the moderator has a backlog of messages, and hasn't 
reviewed it yet.



On March 5, 2017 5:02:26 PM Thilo Haug  wrote:


There was an automatic reply, saying :

"Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
[...]
Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision."

But that doesn't mean to me the whole mail was "invalid" or won't reach
the list at all
(didn't "receive notification of the moderator's decision")
I think the message text should be clarified or the process of checking
those mails.

Betreff:Your message to Tagging awaits moderator approval
Datum:  Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:46:37 +
Von:tagging-ow...@openstreetmap.org
An: th...@gmx.de



Your mail to 'Tagging' with the subject

Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
accomodations

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

Post by non-member to a members-only list

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/confirm/tagging/05723fa27000534321abf9935369c04e2a26adc1


Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:


Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that the
author is posting to the list but does not appear to be receiving
messages from it ?

In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and
English perhaps ?

David


On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug > wrote:


Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html



maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which
it was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an
automatic reply in this case.


cheers,
Martin


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--

Thilo Haug
Bismarckstr.37
72764 Reutlingen

Mobil: +49 177 3185856




--
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

2017-03-05 Thread Thilo Haug 
There was an automatic reply, saying :

"Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
[...]
Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision."

But that doesn't mean to me the whole mail was "invalid" or won't reach
the list at all
(didn't "receive notification of the moderator's decision")
I think the message text should be clarified or the process of checking
those mails.

Betreff:Your message to Tagging awaits moderator approval
Datum:  Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:46:37 +
Von:tagging-ow...@openstreetmap.org
An: th...@gmx.de



Your mail to 'Tagging' with the subject

Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
accomodations

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

Post by non-member to a members-only list

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/confirm/tagging/05723fa27000534321abf9935369c04e2a26adc1


Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:
>
> Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that the
> author is posting to the list but does not appear to be receiving
> messages from it ?
>
> In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and
> English perhaps ?
>
> David
>
>
> On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug > > wrote:
>>
>>> Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html
>>
>>
>> maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which
>> it was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an
>> automatic reply in this case.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin 
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
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Mobil: +49 177 3185856

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Re: [Tagging] EuroVelo tagging

2017-03-05 Thread Jo 
It ought to be possible to use hierarchy in those relations. That way you
would map them at the national level and group them for the international
level.

Same for that route that is mtb/hiking/horse. 1 route containing the ways,
then reuse for the other 2. At the moment I would tag that one with 3
separate reltations, but JOSM might complain you have relations with the
same members.

Polyglot

2017-03-05 22:15 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> I have a route that is
> mountain bike and
> hiking and
> horse
>
>
> the route=mtb;hiking;horse functions .. at least for hiking and horse
> ..(but not mtb on https://mtb.waymarkedtrails.org/#?map=6!-35.8356!149.48
> - change it to horse or hiking to see mapped sections of the BNT)
>
> the network tag .. I have no idea on how to do multiple tags on this.
>
> I am thinking of separating this into 3 relations .. but it is very messy.
>
> My thoughts on the EV ... following my thinking on the above are;
>
> Have 2 relations ... on on the EV, the other on the other entity (e.g.
> BicItalia).
> Bit messy. But each can use the relevant tags without conflict. Those who
> want the national details rather than the international ones can have it.
>
>
> On 06-Mar-17 05:55 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>
> As EV routes are not managed as single entities, every route is split in
> pieces managed on a country basis. I know the situation in Italy, as I am
> involved in regional and national cycle routes here. EV routes are handled
> by BicItalia which is part of FIAB, the "Italian Federation of Friends of
> the Bicycle". All EV routes all have also BicItalia numbering (BicItalia
> routes are ncn), but it is not necessarily the case that the Italian part
> of a given EV corresponds one-to-one to a BicItalia route. So it makes
> sense to tag the individual EV routes in one country as one icn and to tie
> these icn routes in the different countries together by a super relation.
> This means that any BI route that is also part of an EV is part of at least
> to bicycle route relations (it typically is also part of lower level routes.
>
> On 5 March 2017 at 19:38, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
>
>> Europe has numerous international cycle routes signposted and marketed as
>> 'EuroVelo', and these are often mapped in OSM:
>>
>> http://www.eurovelo.com/
>>
>> Unfortunately the tagging is pretty inconsistent, especially when routes
>> are shared with national/regional (NCN/RCN) routes, as is usually the case.
>> Although a relation with 'network=icn' is the convention for international
>> cycling routes, people do sometimes change this to 'network=ncn' and
>> 'ref=EV<...>' for tagging-for-the-renderer reasons. The result is that we
>> have messy and inconsistent tagging.
>>
>> At present the wiki project page doesn't have any tagging guidance:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/EuroVelo
>>
>> I would like to suggest that we formalise existing good practice by
>> saying that roads/paths on a EuroVelo route should directly be part of a
>> route relation. That relation should be tagged:
>>
>> route=bicycle
>> network=icn
>> ref=11 [or whatever the EuroVelo route number is]
>>
>> Grouping several route relations together in a 'master relation' is all
>> good (as these routes are often too long for one manageable relation), as
>> is operator/brand tagging to indicate that this is EuroVelo in particular.
>> But I'd like to document the above as the minimum, simplest thing. It seems
>> to be generally accepted and is in line with NCN/RCN tagging.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> cheers
>> Richard
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

2017-03-05 Thread Michael Reichert 
Hi David,

Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:
> Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that the
> author is posting to the list but does not appear to be receiving
> messages from it ?
> 
> In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and
> English perhaps ?

I got an answer from Thilo in English although I wrote him in German.
[1]The English did not look like Google Translator translating German to
English. ;-)

Best regards

Michael



[1] He uses the German locale on his computer and a gmx.de email
address, so German seems to be his preferred language.


-- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)



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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

2017-03-05 Thread David Bannon 
Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that the 
author is posting to the list but does not appear to be receiving 
messages from it ?


In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and 
English perhaps ?


David


On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug > wrote:



Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html



maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which it 
was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an automatic 
reply in this case.



cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] EuroVelo tagging

2017-03-05 Thread Warin 

I have a route that is
mountain bike and
hiking and
horse


the route=mtb;hiking;horse functions .. at least for hiking and horse 
..(but not mtb on 
https://mtb.waymarkedtrails.org/#?map=6!-35.8356!149.48 - change it to 
horse or hiking to see mapped sections of the BNT)


the network tag .. I have no idea on how to do multiple tags on this.

I am thinking of separating this into 3 relations .. but it is very messy.

My thoughts on the EV ... following my thinking on the above are;

Have 2 relations ... on on the EV, the other on the other entity (e.g. 
BicItalia).
Bit messy. But each can use the relevant tags without conflict. Those 
who want the national details rather than the international ones can 
have it.


On 06-Mar-17 05:55 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
As EV routes are not managed as single entities, every route is split 
in pieces managed on a country basis. I know the situation in Italy, 
as I am involved in regional and national cycle routes here. EV routes 
are handled by BicItalia which is part of FIAB, the "Italian 
Federation of Friends of the Bicycle". All EV routes all have also 
BicItalia numbering (BicItalia routes are ncn), but it is not 
necessarily the case that the Italian part of a given EV corresponds 
one-to-one to a BicItalia route. So it makes sense to tag the 
individual EV routes in one country as one icn and to tie these icn 
routes in the different countries together by a super relation. This 
means that any BI route that is also part of an EV is part of at least 
to bicycle route relations (it typically is also part of lower level 
routes.


On 5 March 2017 at 19:38, Richard Fairhurst > wrote:


Europe has numerous international cycle routes signposted and
marketed as 'EuroVelo', and these are often mapped in OSM:

http://www.eurovelo.com/

Unfortunately the tagging is pretty inconsistent, especially when
routes are shared with national/regional (NCN/RCN) routes, as is
usually the case. Although a relation with 'network=icn' is the
convention for international cycling routes, people do sometimes
change this to 'network=ncn' and 'ref=EV<...>' for
tagging-for-the-renderer reasons. The result is that we have messy
and inconsistent tagging.

At present the wiki project page doesn't have any tagging guidance:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/EuroVelo


I would like to suggest that we formalise existing good practice
by saying that roads/paths on a EuroVelo route should directly be
part of a route relation. That relation should be tagged:

route=bicycle
network=icn
ref=11 [or whatever the EuroVelo route number is]

Grouping several route relations together in a 'master relation'
is all good (as these routes are often too long for one manageable
relation), as is operator/brand tagging to indicate that this is
EuroVelo in particular. But I'd like to document the above as the
minimum, simplest thing. It seems to be generally accepted and is
in line with NCN/RCN tagging.

Thoughts?

cheers
Richard

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Re: [Tagging] how to map simple buildings

2017-03-05 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 5 Mar 2017, at 21:11, Christian Müller  wrote:
> 
> Strictly speaking, even a simple way is just that:
> A relation of points.


+1
it's the technical, abstract way in which relations are mostly presented to the 
mappers, that scares many of them, if this gets abstracted away into a specific 
UI (e.g. the type=building gets presented as "a building") people would use 
them like ways or nodes.

cheers, 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] how to map simple buildings

2017-03-05 Thread Christian Müller 
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 05. März 2017 um 20:22 Uhr
> Von: "Peter Barth" 
> An: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] how to map simple buildings
>
> Mappers even screw up simple multipolygons all the time.

Addendum: It's not mappers to blame, but partial data, i.e. obscurity that
results from difference between local and db datasets.  It's hard to get
this issue foolproof in all editing tools, may be it's even impossible
with some of the design decisions that have been made, but future will
tell.

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Re: [Tagging] how to map simple buildings

2017-03-05 Thread Christian Müller 
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 05. März 2017 um 20:22 Uhr
> Von: "Peter Barth" 
> An: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] how to map simple buildings
>
>
> you're probably more than 10 years late with that and there had
> been many to suggest great new database schemata, great to
> evaluate tagging methods and what not. The success of OSM is (in
> part) based on the concept of "the simplest thing that could
> possibly work".

Despite your nagging, it does not hurt to /re/search and reevaluate
design decissions made. Loosing the ability to question them, being
rigid with what you got is OSMs ticket to irrelevance. In part it
has also been flexibility of the community that made some of OSM
successful (not everything about it is).

"What is the simplest thing?" is raised by the concept you argue on.
If this is open to perception, its not a bad thing to account for
several ways to do the same thing, since it allows people to co-op
that are very different in nature and thinking.

It might not make sense to drive this to a point of indifference,
but without any tolerance you will end up with a simple answer:

The simplest thing that does work, is _no_ OSM.  We've had the
world live without it.


> Relations just make things worse. Mappers even screw up simple
> multipolygons all the time and that's actually something where
> relations make sense in the absence of an area type.

Ok, this is your pov. Here is mine: Relations are what made OSM
successful in the start.  Between the people who do, between
geographic objects that are to be represented, between points.

Strictly speaking, even a simple way is just that:
A relation of points.

So please, do not be so fatal with your judgement. It is in OSMs
nature to be unfinished and while we argue, others /do/ work to-
wards it's completion. And for most of the time you will find
more than one person being at fault for having broken things
temporarily:

It also depends on your experience what to consider broken.

In my mind two adjacent areas that arbitrarily overlap and
show no-man's-land artefacts over the length of their common
border in rendered output, are not just plain ugly, but wrong,
since it does not represent "what's on ground" - and that's
another popular concept OSMs success is based on.


Greetings


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Re: [Tagging] how to map simple buildings

2017-03-05 Thread Peter Barth 
Hi Christian,

"Christian Müller" schrieb:
> I'm sure there is a lot of stuff in OSM where you could
> trade code against a relation.  But most of the time it
> introduces dependencies: on caching [...]

you're probably more than 10 years late with that and there had
been many to suggest great new database schemata, great to
evaluate tagging methods and what not. The success of OSM is (in
part) based on the concept of "the simplest thing that could
possibly work".

S3DB building is easy and worked for several years now. And for
this one theoretical case where you wouldn't be able to tag a
building without relation the S3DB site even allows to use
relations (although I've yet to see a building tagged in all
those years where the relation is really necessary and if there
is, it probably shouldn't be in OSM but in an external model
repository).

If you can't live without relations, use them. But please let
everyone else go without and accept that this had been discussed
in length in the past. Relations just make things worse. Mappers
even screw up simple multipolygons all the time and that's
actually something where relations make sense in the absence of
an area type.

Peda


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Re: [Tagging] EuroVelo tagging

2017-03-05 Thread Volker Schmidt 
As EV routes are not managed as single entities, every route is split in
pieces managed on a country basis. I know the situation in Italy, as I am
involved in regional and national cycle routes here. EV routes are handled
by BicItalia which is part of FIAB, the "Italian Federation of Friends of
the Bicycle". All EV routes all have also BicItalia numbering (BicItalia
routes are ncn), but it is not necessarily the case that the Italian part
of a given EV corresponds one-to-one to a BicItalia route. So it makes
sense to tag the individual EV routes in one country as one icn and to tie
these icn routes in the different countries together by a super relation.
This means that any BI route that is also part of an EV is part of at least
to bicycle route relations (it typically is also part of lower level routes.

On 5 March 2017 at 19:38, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> Europe has numerous international cycle routes signposted and marketed as
> 'EuroVelo', and these are often mapped in OSM:
>
> http://www.eurovelo.com/
>
> Unfortunately the tagging is pretty inconsistent, especially when routes
> are shared with national/regional (NCN/RCN) routes, as is usually the case.
> Although a relation with 'network=icn' is the convention for international
> cycling routes, people do sometimes change this to 'network=ncn' and
> 'ref=EV<...>' for tagging-for-the-renderer reasons. The result is that we
> have messy and inconsistent tagging.
>
> At present the wiki project page doesn't have any tagging guidance:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/EuroVelo
>
> I would like to suggest that we formalise existing good practice by saying
> that roads/paths on a EuroVelo route should directly be part of a route
> relation. That relation should be tagged:
>
> route=bicycle
> network=icn
> ref=11 [or whatever the EuroVelo route number is]
>
> Grouping several route relations together in a 'master relation' is all
> good (as these routes are often too long for one manageable relation), as
> is operator/brand tagging to indicate that this is EuroVelo in particular.
> But I'd like to document the above as the minimum, simplest thing. It seems
> to be generally accepted and is in line with NCN/RCN tagging.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> cheers
> Richard
>
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[Tagging] EuroVelo tagging

2017-03-05 Thread Richard Fairhurst 
Europe has numerous international cycle routes signposted and marketed 
as 'EuroVelo', and these are often mapped in OSM:


http://www.eurovelo.com/

Unfortunately the tagging is pretty inconsistent, especially when routes 
are shared with national/regional (NCN/RCN) routes, as is usually the 
case. Although a relation with 'network=icn' is the convention for 
international cycling routes, people do sometimes change this to 
'network=ncn' and 'ref=EV<...>' for tagging-for-the-renderer reasons. 
The result is that we have messy and inconsistent tagging.


At present the wiki project page doesn't have any tagging guidance:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/EuroVelo

I would like to suggest that we formalise existing good practice by 
saying that roads/paths on a EuroVelo route should directly be part of a 
route relation. That relation should be tagged:


route=bicycle
network=icn
ref=11 [or whatever the EuroVelo route number is]

Grouping several route relations together in a 'master relation' is all 
good (as these routes are often too long for one manageable relation), 
as is operator/brand tagging to indicate that this is EuroVelo in 
particular. But I'd like to document the above as the minimum, simplest 
thing. It seems to be generally accepted and is in line with NCN/RCN 
tagging.


Thoughts?

cheers
Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

2017-03-05 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug  wrote:
> 
> Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html


maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which it was sent 
by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an automatic reply in this case.


cheers,
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