Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[John Willis]

> On Feb 21, 2018, at 9:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> I would not consider a freestanding statue or several of them (not in a niche 
> or covered or inside some other construction) , a “shrine”


They are usually the same objects inside other wayside shrines (as I understand 
it).  The other “statues” are simply luckier to have a roof. 
 
I understand that mapping objects - small wooden or similar structures too 
small for people to enter vs a statue seems like a good distinction to make, 
especially for “duck” mapping. 

but similar to how we would map bicycle parking as covered=yes/no, the parking 
is the major concern, rather than then the rain cover. 

Maybe it is proper to separate the freestanding jiso statues into a separate 
category (wayside_statue), but Tomoya is approaching it as they are both 
wayside statues of jizo. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/11091167075/in/album-72157638113676925/ 


I believe these are the same statues. They serve the same purpose. they both 
get little clothes made for them and prayed to. one group has a roof, the other 
doesn’t.  this is a way_side shrine on a larger POW ground, along a walking 
path to the main building. They are pretty common too. 

Because they are basically the same thing, Tomoya chooses to view them like 
bicycle parking (one category, covered=yes/no), while you see them as separate 
wayside_statue / wayside_shrine. 


It might be better to let wayside_shrine be kind of a catchall, and make a 
wayside_shrine=* subtage with extenable values, rather than making a new tag 
for every object: column, painting, statue, etc to keep them grouped together - 
but still allow proper definition. 

javbw

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Re: [Tagging] Proposed features - RFC 2 - Pressurized waterways

[Kevin Kenny]

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 9:05 AM, François Lacombe
 wrote:
> In the same time, systems like "Los Angeles Aqueduct" are called aqueduct
> and are composed of canals, tunnels and pipelines.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Aqueduct
>
> That's why I like the definition of Aqueduct like a system and not like a
> precise building.
>
> Am I wrong ?

I think you're right. The Aqua Marcia, Aqua Ano Vetus, Aqua Anio
Novus, and Aqua Claudia were all known as 'aqueducts' and were systems
that were tens of km, in canals where possible, but mostly in
underground conduits. There were pressurized syphons for valley
crossings. Only the terminal portions of the aqueducts, as they
approached the City, or crossings of deep valleys, were on arcades -
but these make the tourist pictures, so people get the incorrect
impression that 'aqueduct' is synonymous with 'arcade'.

The arcades were used as the water approached Rome because the whole
system was gravity fed, and having the water up on a high arcade was
the way to get decent water pressure at the tap.

New York City's system runs on a similar plan, but with pressurized
tunnels. The system is entirely gravity driven from its sources in the
Catskill Mountains to the tap. The upper sources of the system are as
far away as https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/135512500 (for the
Catskill Aqueduct) and https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/134694145
(the tunnel doesn't appear to be mapped) for the Delaware Aqueduct.

Using 'canal' for https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/135512500 - when
it's a pressurized syphon - is suboptimal, but is the 'least wrong'
thing in current tagging.

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Richard Welty]

On 2/19/18 6:37 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> On 19. Feb 2018, at 22:28, Richard Welty  > wrote:
>
>> i know of examples in both italy and the US. the italian ones
>> i've seen are older and thus much more sunken than the ones in the US.
>
>
> in Italy there are also “a lot” of historic cuttings (in rock),
> predating the Roman empire.
>
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tagliata+etrusca=h_=images=images
>
not all in rock. we saw a deeply sunken road in packed dirt at an
Etruscan site
in Tuscany quite a few years ago.

there are sunken roads/lanes associated with a couple of battlefields
from the
American Civil War, notably the one at the Antietam battlefield. these
are generally
of historical significance because they were handy pre-existing
entrenchments
that impacted the course of the battles. 100 years of use are easily
enough to
create a road or way that deserves to be called "sunken".

richard

-- 
rwe...@averillpark.net
 Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
 OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
 Java - Web Applications - Search


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Re: [Tagging] Proposed features - RFC 2 - Pressurized waterways

[François Lacombe]

Hi Janko,

2018-02-20 17:00 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :

> We need a value for man made waterways that aren't used for carrying water
> away, but for bringing water somewhere.
>
This sounds to be the waterway=canal definition.
Navigation, irrigation, spillway, hydropower are usage and may go in
usage=* key.

Look at this table :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hydropower_water_supplies#Pressurised_waterway_.28pipe_flow_only.29
Canal can go open air, in culvert and free flow tunnel


> Waterway=aqueduct looks ok to me, although, in the Wikipedia page for
> aqueduct, bringing water to hydro power stations is never mentioned. But I
> think it's ok to use that value for that use.
>

In the same time, systems like "Los Angeles Aqueduct" are called aqueduct
and are composed of canals, tunnels and pipelines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Aqueduct

That's why I like the definition of Aqueduct like a system and not like a
precise building.

Am I wrong ?


François
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Feb 2018, at 14:12, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> * Jizo statue enshrines the spirit of Jizo, a buddhism master. So we pray to 
> it.


that’s a good point, thank you for the background, I agree it can be seen like 
this. 

So my critique remains only for the column and not for the buddhist statues


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

wikipedia has also a reference to the etymology in the first phrase:

A shrine (Latin: scrinium "case or chest for books or papers"; Old French: 
escrin "box or case")[1] 


Frankly, I wouldn’t rely on wikipedia for edge cases.

Cheers,
Martin 

sent from a phone

> On 21. Feb 2018, at 14:12, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> * Wikipedia shows some "shrine" without "building".
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine
> * Jizo statue enshrines the spirit of Jizo, a buddhism master. So we pray to 
> it.
> 
> muramoto
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[tomoya muramoto]

* Wikipedia shows some "shrine" without "building".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine
* Jizo statue enshrines the spirit of Jizo, a buddhism master. So we pray
to it.

muramoto
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Feb 2018, at 14:53, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> I added some photo example to wiki, 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dwayside_shrine



Please do not add more examples to the wiki which contradict the definition 
(that a wayside shrine requires a shrine) while we’re still discussing here.

Looking in a dictionary, “shrine” can mean:

A place regarded as holy because of its associations with a divinity or a 
sacred person or relic, marked by a building or other construction.

1.1 A place associated with or containing memorabilia of a particular revered 
person or thing.
‘her grave has become a shrine for fans from all over the world’
.2 A casket containing sacred relics; a reliquary
1.3 A niche or enclosure containing a religious statue or other object.


all these examples are about “enclosing” something, because it is the meaning 
of shrine and enshrining. 

I would not consider a freestanding statue or several of them (not in a niche 
or covered or inside some other construction) , a “shrine”
(this refers to the buddhist example that was added and to the column that was 
already there)


cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Feb 2018, at 18:57, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> 
> That said, I have no view regarding the use of the term in tagging.


according to the actual statistics, there almost 5000 historic=hollow_way and 1 
(one) historic=sunken_lane (also checked other keys, no significant useof these 
terms)

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] railway=platform nodes at tram stops

[marc marc]

Le 20. 02. 18 à 22:28, Selfish Seahorse a écrit :
>> in osm, platform is where people wait to take the train.
>> people always are "somewhere" before taking the train.
>> osm platform <> irl plateform
> 
> Do you mean `public_transport=platform` [^1], `railway=platform` [^2] or both?

I mean in all public transport mode, except the wiki page of 
railway=platform.
It's why I think railway=platform need to be fixed to reduce this 
difference in description not really necessary.

> this would mean that there is no way to define that there is no platform.

it's the case for all other transport mode.
is that a problem ? Do you have a use case that would require you to 
know when there is a "spacious platform" and when there is no dedicated 
space because, for example, the bus stop uses the sidewalk as a waiting 
area for passengers ?

> 
>> maybe a better value should be "embarkation point" but it's "too late"
>> to change a so common value.
> 
> Why not just 'stop'?

it's even more ambiguous between the stop of the vehicle
and the passenger.

> It's never too late to correct a mistake ...

Make a "proposed feature" to rename this value.
Congratulations on your success in getting the job done.

Regards,
Marc
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