Re: [Tagging] Conflicting wiki docu for aerialway=goods and aerialway=station

[Andy Mabbett]

On Tue, 15 May 2018 02:36 Paul Allen,  wrote:

> at least one other language makes a similar
> distinction to English in that stations are for people, not goods.

The U.K. has (or had) many places named 'Goods Station'.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

>
>
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[Tagging] Follow up re Aviation Obstacle lights

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi

Following up on the previous discussions re Aviation Obstacle lights to see
if there was any final decision?

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-March/035311.html

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Aviation_Obstacle_Light

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Conflicting wiki docu for aerialway=goods and aerialway=station

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 11:21 PM, Andrew Davidson 
wrote:

> I think that was Martin's point. OSM tags and values aren't in Dutch
>

I took the Dutch to be an example that at least one other language makes a
similar
distinction to English in that stations are for people, not goods.  Then
again, Dutch
(well, the Frisian dialect) had some influence on English, so it's maybe
not a
distinction found in many languages.

 --
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Conflicting wiki docu for aerialway=goods and aerialway=station

[Andrew Davidson]

I think that was Martin's point. OSM tags and values aren't in Dutch
(despite the fact that some of them do appear to be in Double Dutch).

On Mon, 14 May 2018 23:29 Johnparis,  wrote:

> That was on April 1, I note, or poisson d'avril as they say in French.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

14. May 2018 10:18 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


>
>
> sent from a phone
> On 14. May 2018, at 08:48, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>
>>> Is the latter for oneway streets with a counterflow lane?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> for oneway streets with a counterflow lane
>>
>> cycleway=opposite_lane is typically used
>>
>
>
> this is for situations where there is only a counterflow lane (only one lane)

yes 

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Re: [Tagging] Conflicting wiki docu for aerialway=goods and aerialway=station

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-14 11:55 GMT+02:00 Peter Elderson :

> In Dutch, station means trains, also sizeable areas for trams and buses
> with multiple platforms, but not planes.
>


in April OSMF announced [1] that, following a draft of the Babel working
group, tags would soon be in German and French, with Spanish and Japanese
following in the long term. Are you proposing to add Dutch to this list?
AFAICI, this development is currently stalled due to a veto from the
project founder, and its future is more than uncertain.

Cheers,
Martin

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[1]
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[osm.tagging]

> -Original Message-
> From: Marc Gemis 
> Sent: Monday, 14 May 2018 19:40
> 
> The wiki page on cycling infrastructure from the Lübeck Stammtish,
> mentioned this explicitly "und/oder", see [1]
> 
> I also see that they use cycleway:left/right=sidepath, I have never
> used that, I used bicycle:forward/backward=use_sidepath
> 
> What is the preferred method ?
> 
> 
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck/Fahrradstadtplan
> (in German)

I had "use_sidepath" instead of "sidepath" in my mind as well... but looking at 
the stats in taginfo, it seems that sidepath usage is currently 1-2 orders of 
magnitude ahead of use_sidepath.





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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[osm.tagging]

From: Martin Koppenhoefer  
Sent: Monday, 14 May 2018 19:07



according to the wiki, you can't use "cycleway:left" and "cycleway:right" at 
the same time. Would you agree this requirement should be removed?

This particular wiki page seems to be somewhat misleading in that case.

 

cycleway:left=* describes the cycleway on the left side (as seen when looking 
in the forward direction of the way), on its own, it does not say anything 
about the presence or absence of a cycleway on the right side.

 

So if you have a road with a cycleway on only one side :

 

cycleway:left=lane

or

cycleway:right=lane

 

to be explicit you could then also add:

cycleway:right=no 

or

cycleway:left=no 

(the absence of a tag isn’t guaranteed to mean “no”, it could also mean 
“unknown”, depending on how the software interprets it, as there is no clearly 
defined default value for cycleway).

 

If there are cycleways on both sides, you can write it as either:

 

cycleway=lane 

(only in case of a two-way street, for a one-way street, this would imply that 
there is only one cycle lane on the left- or right-hand side [depending on 
local traffic rules])

 

or

 

cycleway:both=lane 

(which even in case of a one-way street would mean that there are two 
cycleways, both in the same direction as the oneway street; in case of a 
two-way street the cycle lanes on the different sides are in the direction of 
traffic on that side of the road)

 

or

 

cycleway:left=lane

cycleway:right=lane 

(same as cycleway:both=lane)

 

The main reason why you would use separate tags is for:

cycleway:left=lane

cycleway:right=opposite_lane 

 

(or any other case when the cycleway type is different on both sides of the 
road).

 

If the later case (different cycleway on left and right side) is allowed (which 
is necessary), then it doesn’t make sense to prohibit use of the same tags with 
the same value.

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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[osm.tagging]

> -Original Message-
> From: Marc Gemis 
> Sent: Monday, 14 May 2018 18:55
> 
>> cycleway:left=opposite_lane (or cycleway:right, depending)
>> oneway:bicycle=no
>
> I would expect that the above is for the case that there is only a
> contra-flow lane. And that for drive with the flow you have to
> share the space with the cars

If these are the only tags, that is correct.

> I would map it as
> 
> cycleway:left=opposite_lane
> cycleway:right=lane
> oneway:bicycle=no
> and typically oneway:moped_A=no (special category of mopeds in
> Belgium)
> 
> is that wrong ?

This is what I meant. Sorry for not expressing it well. My "if one of the two 
is for traffic against the flow indicated by the oneway tag, use:" was meant to 
express that you change one of the two tag so:

If there are two cycle lanes, both in oneway direction, use:

cycleway:left=lane
cycleway:right=lane

if one of the two is for opposite direction traffic, replace that one with 
opposite_lane (but keep the other lane one). 



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Re: [Tagging] Conflicting wiki docu for aerialway=goods and aerialway=station

[Peter Elderson]

In Dutch, station means trains, also sizeable areas for trams and buses
with multiple platforms, but not planes.

2018-05-14 11:43 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> According to the tag definitions for aerialway=goods [1], the endpoints
>> should be tagged with aerialway=station, but according to the station wiki
>> page [2], the tag requires passenger transport.
>>
>
> I'm largely agnostic on this one, but would point out the situation with
> railways.  Passengers embark/disembark
> at stations but goods are loaded/unloaded in a goods yard (or terminal, or
> depot).
>
> Then again, I'm not a railway enthusiast, so that's just a layman's
> understanding of the terms I've encountered
> in typical British English usage.  For me, "station" (wrt transportation)
> means passengers, not goods.
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
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>


-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
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Re: [Tagging] Conflicting wiki docu for aerialway=goods and aerialway=station

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> According to the tag definitions for aerialway=goods [1], the endpoints
> should be tagged with aerialway=station, but according to the station wiki
> page [2], the tag requires passenger transport.
>

I'm largely agnostic on this one, but would point out the situation with
railways.  Passengers embark/disembark
at stations but goods are loaded/unloaded in a goods yard (or terminal, or
depot).

Then again, I'm not a railway enthusiast, so that's just a layman's
understanding of the terms I've encountered
in typical British English usage.  For me, "station" (wrt transportation)
means passengers, not goods.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Marc Gemis]

The wiki page on cycling infrastructure from the Lübeck Stammtish,
mentioned this explicitly "und/oder", see [1]

I also see that they use cycleway:left/right=sidepath, I have never
used that, I used bicycle:forward/backward=use_sidepath

What is the preferred method ?


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck/Fahrradstadtplan
(in German)

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 11:30 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
>> according to the wiki, you can't use "cycleway:left" and "cycleway:right"
>> at the same time. Would you agree this requirement should be removed?
>
>
> Wher did you find this exclusion?
> The "cycleway" wiki page [1]  does not exclude it, I would say:
> " Consider using the cycleway:left=lane and / or cycleway:right=lane tags
> instead for a cycle lane which is on the left and / or right side, relative
> to the direction in which the way was drawn in the editor, as this describes
> on which side the cycle lane is. "
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-14 11:30 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :

>
> according to the wiki, you can't use "cycleway:left" and "cycleway:right"
>> at the same time. Would you agree this requirement should be removed?
>>
>
> Wher did you find this exclusion?
>


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:cycleway:right%3Dlane
"A cycle lanes only on one side of the road."
(left is redirected to right).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Volker Schmidt]

> according to the wiki, you can't use "cycleway:left" and "cycleway:right"
> at the same time. Would you agree this requirement should be removed?
>

Wher did you find this exclusion?
The "cycleway" wiki page [1]  does not exclude it, I would say:
" Consider using the cycleway:left
=lane
 and / or
cycleway:right =lane
 tags
instead for a cycle lane which is on the left and / or right side, relative
to the direction in which the way was drawn in the editor, as this
describes on which side the cycle lane is. "

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-14 10:37 GMT+02:00 :

> For one-way streets, I’m not sure how most software is going to interpret
> it. As it’s somewhat ambiguous, I would say the better solution with a
> oneway street is to go with an explicit:
>
>
>
> cycleway:left=lane
>
> cycleway:right=lane
>
>
>


according to the wiki, you can't use "cycleway:left" and "cycleway:right"
at the same time. Would you agree this requirement should be removed?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[osm.tagging]

From: osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au  
Sent: Monday, 14 May 2018 18:37



if there is only one cycle lane, but it’s allowed to travel in both directions 
on an otherwise one-way road use:

 

cycleway:left=opposite (or cycleway:right, depending which side, as seen from 
the forward direction of the main oneway road the two-way cycle lane is one)

oneway:bicycle=no

 

This was wrong, I’ve already corrected it in my previous post. 

 

cycleway=opposite means that there are no specifically marked lanes, but travel 
in the opposite direction is allowed for bicycles.

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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Marc Gemis]

>
> If bicycles are allowed to travel against the oneway, but there is no
> explicit lane marked for them, use: (this is correcting my previous post)
>
>
>
> cycleway=opposite
>
>
>
> (my previous post was somewhat wrong, as if there is no explicitly marked
> lane, using cycleway:left or cycleway:right for the value opposite only
> makes sense if there are signs explicitly telling you what side to travel
> on. I would assume that in case of a plain cycleway=opposite, the normal
> left-/right-hand traffic rules of the location apply.)
>

or just use oneway:bicycle=no (which is the preferred method in Belgium afaik)
in case there are no lanes.

>
>
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> Sent: Monday, 14 May 2018 18:19
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes
>
>
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>
> On 14. May 2018, at 08:48, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
>
> Is the latter for oneway streets with a counterflow lane?
>
>
>
> for oneway streets with a counterflow lane
>
> cycleway=opposite_lane is typically used
>
>
>
>
>
> this is for situations where there is only a counterflow lane (only one
> lane), or not?
>
>
>
> cheers,
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Marc Gemis]

>
> if one of the two is for traffic against the flow indicated by the oneway
> tag, use:
>
>
>
> cycleway:left=opposite_lane (or cycleway:right, depending)
>
> oneway:bicycle=no
>

I would expect that the above is for the case that there is only a
contra-flow lane. And that for drive with the flow you have to share
the space with the cars

I would map it as

cycleway:left=opposite_lane
cycleway:right=lane
oneway:bicycle=no
and typically oneway:moped_A=no (special category of mopeds in Belgium)

is that wrong ?

m.

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[Tagging] Conflicting wiki docu for aerialway=goods and aerialway=station

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

According to the tag definitions for aerialway=goods [1], the endpoints
should be tagged with aerialway=station, but according to the station wiki
page [2], the tag requires passenger transport.

If I see it right, both requirements have been introduced roughly the same
time by the same person ;-) so I would suspect we could make the
aerialway=station page more inclusive (also for goods) and maybe suggest a
subtag if desired.

What do you think?


Cheers,
Martin


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway%3Dgoods
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway%3Dstation
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[osm.tagging]

As far as I can tell, for two-way streets, there is no differences, it’s just 
more explicit. 

 

Given the difference in usage numbers (1522 vs. 254509) I would go with just 
cycleway=lane (I actually checked these numbers before I made that last post).

 

For one-way streets, I’m not sure how most software is going to interpret it. 
As it’s somewhat ambiguous, I would say the better solution with a oneway 
street is to go with an explicit:

 

cycleway:left=lane

cycleway:right=lane

 

if one of the two is for traffic against the flow indicated by the oneway tag, 
use:

 

cycleway:left=opposite_lane (or cycleway:right, depending)

oneway:bicycle=no

 

if there is only one cycle lane, but it’s allowed to travel in both directions 
on an otherwise one-way road use:

 

cycleway:left=opposite (or cycleway:right, depending which side, as seen from 
the forward direction of the main oneway road the two-way cycle lane is one)

oneway:bicycle=no

 

(yes, that isn’t exactly the best value, but that’s what the wiki defines and 
looking at overpass query results, it seems to be used as such)

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer  
Sent: Monday, 14 May 2018 16:38
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

 

 

sent from a phone


On 14. May 2018, at 08:05,  >  > wrote:

So the easiest tagging is:

 

lanes=2

cycleway=lane

 

 

is there a difference to cycleway:both=lane ?

Is the latter for oneway streets with a counterflow lane?

 

cheers,

Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. May 2018, at 08:48, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> Is the latter for oneway streets with a counterflow lane?
> 
> 
> for oneway streets with a counterflow lane
> 
> cycleway=opposite_lane is typically used
> 


this is for situations where there is only a counterflow lane (only one lane), 
or not?

cheers,
Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Philip Barnes]

Here is one example of a road with soft cycle lanes but no (vehicle) lanes.

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Z0DBe6sffpL7aubYj0zpaQ

I use it regularly, it is plenty wide enough to pass other cars whilst staying 
out of the cycle lane but a lot of drivers do struggle with the concept of 
mostly no centreline.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 13 May 2018 19:26:40 BST, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Marc Gemis 
>wrote:
>
>> On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Marc Gemis 
>wrote:
>> > For your first image lanes=0, lanes:forward=2, lanes:backward=1.
>Awkward
>> but
>> > correct.
>>
>>
>> This is of course incorrect, lanes = 0 (or just do not mention it)
>> and bicycle:lanes:forward=yes|yes (or designated|designated) and
>> something similar for backward.
>
>
>How can there be any bicycle lanes if there are no lanes?  It literally
>doesn't add up.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

13. May 2018 23:34 by kevin.b.kenny+...@gmail.com 
:


> I've long said that the final arbiters of tagging should be the intermediate 
> consumers of the data - not the end users, but rather the people who 
> implement the routers, renderers, navigation systems,. search engines, and so 
> on that present the data to the end users. They are the ones who have the 
> knowledge of both what features and attributes will be relevant to their 
> communities and what tagging will make it easier to do the job of rendering, 
> routing, navigation, search and so on.




It is de facto happening. Tag supported in rendering, routing, editors,

not triggering validator complaints will win over unsupported version (or at 
least get massive boost). 

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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

14. May 2018 01:45 by ethnicfoodisgr...@gmail.com 
:


>> Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 16:51:26 -0400
>> From: Bryan Housel <>> br...@7thposition.com 
>> >> >
>> To: osm-tagging <>> tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> >> >
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes
>>
>>
>> [...]
>> It kind of makes one question whether a community edited wiki is a good way 
>> to standardize a tagging scheme intended to produce a coherant mapping 
>> dataset.  Bold suggestion: maybe the people who write the tools should just 
>> get together over beers and decide what all the tags should be.  I’ll buy!
>>
>>
>> [...]
>>




At least in part it an be easily done: whenever some tag is obviously a 
terrible idea from

perspective of using data document it on Wiki. 





If some new tag is necessary - document it on Wiki (I did it, both from side of 
somebody using 


OSM data and from side of mapper that is currently not using data).




If somebody is interested anybody may do this.

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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

14. May 2018 08:38 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> On 14. May 2018, at 08:05, <> osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
> > > <> 
> osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au > 
> > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> So the easiest tagging is:
>>
>>  
>>
>> lanes=2
>>
>> cycleway=lane
>>
>
>
> is there a difference to cycleway:both=lane ?

 

cycleway:both=lane explicitly tags that there are lanes on both sides,

cycleway=lane is doing it implicitly and there is small risk that somebody

will tag/process it with different assumptions





> Is the latter for oneway streets with a counterflow lane?




for oneway streets with a counterflow lane

cycleway=opposite_lane is typically used

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Re: [Tagging] tagging of one-way cycle lanes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. May 2018, at 08:05,  
>  wrote:
> 
> So the easiest tagging is:
> 
>  
> 
> lanes=2
> 
> cycleway=lane
> 


is there a difference to cycleway:both=lane ?
Is the latter for oneway streets with a counterflow lane?

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Martin ___
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