Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Sergio Manzi]

I know, that's why I asked for a good one...

On 2019-02-02 01:23, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Dictionary.com usually provides definitions in American English, so it 
> wouldn’t be a good source.
>
> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 8:35 AM Sergio Manzi  > wrote:
>
> Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined ditch" or in 
> any way stating that a drain must be lined, because I tried and I failed.
>
> Best I found is in dictionary.com   that (/under 
> /"/Physical Geography/") define it as
>
>  1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
>  2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of water.
>
>
> On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi > > wrote:
>>
>> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>>
>>
>> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
>>
>> -- 
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Dictionary.com usually provides definitions in American English, so it
wouldn’t be a good source.

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 8:35 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined ditch" or in
> any way stating that a drain must be lined, because I tried and I failed.
>
> Best I found is in dictionary.com  that (*under *"*Physical Geography*")
> define it as
>
>1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
>2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of water.
>
>
> On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
>> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>>
>
> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Sergio Manzi]

Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined ditch" or in any 
way stating that a drain must be lined, because I tried and I failed.

Best I found is in dictionary.com  that (/under /"/Physical Geography/") define 
it as

 1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
 2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of water.


On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> 
> wrote:
>
> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>
>
> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
>
> -- 
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal – RFC – natural=peninsula (Was: Feature Proposal – RFC – place=peninsula)

[Dave Swarthout]

I like the proposal, Markus, but am confused by this statement:

natural=peninsula is not intended for tagging coastal areas or coastal
strips.

What does it mean? Can you word it differently perhaps?

Thanks for your efforts on this proposal.

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 12:10 AM Markus  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Are there still any objections to or comments on this proposal?
> Otherwise, i'd like to start voting in two weeks (if possible together
> with the related proposal natural=isthmus).
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:natural%3Dpeninsula
>
> Thank you all for your suggestions for improvement!
>
> Regards
>
> Markus
>
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-- 
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Eugene Podshivalov]

The direct images got blocked. So here are the links.

Drainage ditches:
https://ak2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/32964022/thumb/12.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Drainage_Ditch_at_New_Eskham_Farm_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1170959.jpg

Drains:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Lake_tahoe_storm_drain_el_dorado_beach_2.jpg
http://councillordiane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/stormdrain.jpg
http://mechanicsburgborough.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/STORMSEWER.jpg

Note that drains are expected to be, but are not always lined.

Cheers,
Eugene

сб, 2 февр. 2019 г. в 01:47, Paul Allen :

> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
>> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>>
>
> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>

Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Sergio Manzi]

Right in these days you can read in the Italian newspapers of an industry 
having contaminated with industrial sewage an area inhabited by 300.000...

And let's not get started with what we /"westerns" /normally call "the third 
world"...

So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?


On 2019-02-01 23:34, Paul Allen wrote:
> Then again, I would hope an industrial drain would be lined.


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:37, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:

> Here are some pictures to make the difference between drainage ditches and
> drain clear.
> Drainage ditches:
> [image: image.png]
> [image: image.png]
>
> Drains
> [image: image.png]
> [image: image.png]
> [image: image.png]
> [image: image.png]
>

They all look the same to me.

I think the mailing list filters out attachments.  You'll have to provide
links.

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Eugene Podshivalov]

Here are some pictures to make the difference between drainage ditches and
drain clear.
Drainage ditches:
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]

Drains
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]

Cheers,
Eugene

сб, 2 февр. 2019 г. в 01:29, Sergio Manzi :

> I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK, but are you willing to bet on all
> drains (*e.g. industrial*) of the world being lined?
> On 2019-02-01 23:22, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
>> If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined
>> minor waterways (*and I'm not objecting to that*), I guess the best
>> option would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)
>>
> As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction
> between ditches
> and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so
> we don't have
> to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are
> already
> established.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:29, Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK, but are you willing to bet on all
> drains (*e.g. industrial*) of the world being lined?
>
I wouldn't bet on that one.  However, OSM uses British English terminology.

Then again, I would hope an industrial drain would be lined.  I'm not too
worried about rainwater
or the drainage from fields leaking onto other land.  Wastewater from
industrial processes would
be another matter.

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Sergio Manzi]

I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK, but are you willing to bet on all drains 
(/e.g. industrial/) of the world being lined?

On 2019-02-01 23:22, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> 
> wrote:
>
> If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined 
> minor waterways (/and I'm not objecting to that/), I guess the best option 
> would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)
>
> As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction between 
> ditches
> and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so we 
> don't have
> to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are 
> already
> established.
>
> -- 
> Paul


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined
> minor waterways (*and I'm not objecting to that*), I guess the best
> option would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)
>
As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction
between ditches
and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so
we don't have
to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are
already
established.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Sergio Manzi]

If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined minor 
waterways (/and I'm not objecting to that/), I guess the best option would be 
to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)

IMHO relying on the tagger knowledge of the OSM dictionary semantic subtleties 
(/which sometimes happen to collide with other English dictionaries/) is a bit 
too optimistic.

Sergio


On 2019-02-01 22:50, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 11:51, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>
> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. 
> So why have a tag 'drain'?
>
>
> Really only to differentiate between lined & unlined, which I /think/ may be 
> important / needed?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Peter Elderson]

To map drains that are not ditches?

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 1 feb. 2019 om 02:50 heeft Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So 
> why have a tag 'drain'?

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Hufkratzer]

On 01.02.2019 02:50 Warin wrote:

It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a
'drain'. So why have a tag 'drain'?


Only if the water comes from wet land, not when it is industrial discharge
(compare
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042543.html )


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 11:51, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So
> why have a tag 'drain'?
>

Really only to differentiate between lined & unlined, which I *think* may
be important / needed?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] The actual use of the level tag

[Richard]

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 02:44:50PM +0100, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> I stumbled upon a real-world example yesterday that may make the attempt
> to have the level-tag describe a "global" order (as used in OpenLevelUp,
> JOSM etc.) somewhat impractical -  with that level-selector UI element:
> 
> So, Hamburg is a really flat city. And even still, the mall "Europa
> Passage" ...
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/214840502#map=17/53.55223/9.99644
> ... does have two "ground floors". If you enter through the northern
> entrance, you are in the lower ground floor (level=0), if you enter
> through the southern entrance, you are in the upper ground floor
> (level=1). If you walk alongside the mall though (Bergstraße), there is
> no (apparent) elevation.
> 
> So, imagine there are more indoor-mapped places both around the northern
> and the southern end of that mall (there is, partly, but I am sparing
> you the details), and as a matter of fact, sprinkled throughout the
> entire city centre.
> Then, to have a global order of things, the ground floor of all the
> buildings South of that mall would need to be tagged with level=1 and
> the ground floor of all the buildings North of this mall would need to
> be tagged with level=0. In other words, must be relative to the level
> order used in this building.
> 
> I see two problems with this:
> 
> 1. Where to stop? How global is this global order? Going further South,
> at what point does the level-value for the ground floor revert back to
> 0? What then if two such places collide? (A mall and a multi-level train
> station were mapped separately and they built a tunnel to connect the
> two, but they connect on different level=X - or not even a tunnel, let's
> say they are just next to each other)

The level value is only valid inside one building in my interpretation. 
The safest value to join ways from different buildings would be using 
key:ele. Often enough there will be problems of the kind that a level 
value isn't even uniformly valid inside one building.

Richard


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal – RFC – natural=peninsula (Was: Feature Proposal – RFC – place=peninsula)

[Markus]

Hello,

Are there still any objections to or comments on this proposal?
Otherwise, i'd like to start voting in two weeks (if possible together
with the related proposal natural=isthmus).

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:natural%3Dpeninsula

Thank you all for your suggestions for improvement!

Regards

Markus

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal – RFC – natural=isthmus

[Markus]

Hello everyone,

I'm proposing the tag natural=isthmus for mapping named isthmuses. An
isthmus is a narrow strip of land, bordered by water on both sides and
connecting two larger land masses.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:natural%3Disthmus

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

[Marc Gemis]

Hi Viking,

here is one for Belgium. It's on my photo website and I release it
hereby in Public Domain, feel free to download it and upload it to the
wiki.
https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2017/2017-01-01-Dikkelvenne/i-5MQMcZ3/A

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 7:27 PM Viking  wrote:
>
> I've fixed fire_hydrant:diameter legend on wiki page.
>
> > If you ever need pictures of those signs, please contact me, I have plenty 
> > of them, but I have to look them up.
>
> Marc, and anyone that has pictures of these signs, can you give them to us, 
> to insert them on wiki page?
>
> Thank you,
> Alberto
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Markus]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 02:51, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So 
> why have a tag 'drain'?

I wouldn't oppose.

> The only differences I have between canal and the other things is large verse 
> small and usefull quantity.
> Rather subjective, not a objective measurement. If the differences as so 
> arbitrary why distinguish between them at all?

It's not just size, it's also conveyance vs direct distribution or
collection, similar to power=line vs power=minor_line.

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Markus]

Ciao Sergio,

On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 at 23:46, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
> My only marginal objection is for canal: why don't you ditch (pun 
> intended...) the "used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power 
> generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes" clause?
>
> Are there any other "Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) 
> waterways" that should not be considered canals?
>
> My concern is that somewhere in the world there could be a canal not built 
> for any of those purposes and somebody could object to call it "a canal".

I would leave the canal uses (transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage) for clarification – otherwise
waterway=canal were again mainly differentiated form
waterway=ditch/drain by size, which we wanted to avoid because it is
arbitrary. Possible other canal uses can still be added later.

> Also isn't "land drainage" potentially in contradiction with "useful water"?

Yes, you're right, *useful* should be removed.

Regards

Markus

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