Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
> > what I meant was that we might want to distinguish between those that > show information and those that show traffic signs to which you must obey. > There is no way to distinguish this, unless you have access to the programming, and a fair number are automated to flex to traffic conditions. The various American standards show these as Dynamic Messaging Signs, with other older content showing "character-matrix" Variable Messaging Signs, mostly with the 'text only' as VMS and the more modern "full-matrix" graphic technology as DMS. Other sources say the opposite. In Europe, they are still mostly known as VMS, there is some discussion here: See "Dynamic message signs: differences between Europe and North America" https://www.traffictechnologytoday.com/opinion/dynamic-message-signs-differences-between-europe-and-north-america.html The international ISO standards for intelligent traffic systems say "NOTE: A Variable Message Sign is also named dynamic message sign. Both terms are considered as synonyms and can be used interchangeably." On that basis, the Solomon's choice ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Solomon ) would be to use to tag them something along the lines of "DMS/VMS","DMS-VMS", because almost every source (North American, British, European, etc.) I found uses that sort of contraction as the convention, including the manufacturers. For any sub-tagging, the standards bust out further details according to the display tech, fixed or mobile, size, etc. The ones that change state according to a single variable or condition, like only speed, or lane open/closed, chains required, road flooded, etc. IMHO are more akin to the normal signs, in that even a normal parking sign has 'variability' of states built into the message. Ref: https://www.nema.org/Standards/Pages/Hardware-Standards-for-Dynamic-Message-Signs-with-NTCIP-Requirements.aspx https://blog.ansi.org/2017/02/dynamic-message-signs-dms-electronic-road/#gref Michael Patrick Data Ferret ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
Thanks everybody! I never think to search taginfo as well as the wiki :-( Yep, I like traffic_sign=variable_message & the man_made=gantry is good as well. I'll try to make some additions to the traffic_sign page Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 11:06 Jonathon Rossi wrote: > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 11:19 PM Martin Koppenhoefer < > dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > Il giorno 30 ott 2019, alle ore 13:09, Jonathon Rossi < >> j...@jonorossi.com> ha scritto: >> > >> > I didn't say these signs had to display messages that must be obeyed >> just that they often do. >> >> what I meant was that we might want to distinguish between those that >> show information and those that show traffic signs to which you must obey. >> > > Okay, might be useful, but how does a mapper know what a road authority > will do with a variable message sign? If it has only been observed with > travel time messages and other informational messages, then how do you > verify it won't be used for more in the 1% of cases, and does it actually > matter? > > I'd be inclined to have all big matrix panels tagged > traffic_sign=variable_message, with Variable Speed Limit Signs and Lane Use > Signals different traffic sign types, maybe traffic_sign=variable_speed and > traffic_sign=lane_control (I've not checked taginfo to see what people are > already using) which would allow navigation apps to notify a driver about a > variable speed limit zone (or does that belong on the highway?), however > this is getting out of scope of Graeme's original question. > And it gets just insane when you consider the possibilities Oregon DOT has with its variable displays, since something that's normally displaying the next three exits and which lane is exit only might be pink incident response signs, white speed limit signs and lane control signals the next time you pass the same sign an hour later. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
Okay, might be useful, but how does a mapper know what a road authority > will do with a variable message sign? If it has only been observed with > travel time messages and other informational messages, then how do you > verify it won't be used for more in the 1% of cases, and does it actually > matter? > +1 > I'd be inclined to have all big matrix panels tagged > traffic_sign=variable_message, with Variable Speed Limit Signs and Lane Use > Signals different traffic sign types, maybe traffic_sign=variable_speed and > traffic_sign=lane_control (I've not checked taginfo to see what people are > already using) which would allow navigation apps to notify a driver about a > variable speed limit zone (or does that belong on the highway?), however > this is getting out of scope of Graeme's original question. > +1 Volker ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 11:19 PM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > Il giorno 30 ott 2019, alle ore 13:09, Jonathon Rossi < > j...@jonorossi.com> ha scritto: > > > > I didn't say these signs had to display messages that must be obeyed > just that they often do. > > what I meant was that we might want to distinguish between those that show > information and those that show traffic signs to which you must obey. > Okay, might be useful, but how does a mapper know what a road authority will do with a variable message sign? If it has only been observed with travel time messages and other informational messages, then how do you verify it won't be used for more in the 1% of cases, and does it actually matter? I'd be inclined to have all big matrix panels tagged traffic_sign=variable_message, with Variable Speed Limit Signs and Lane Use Signals different traffic sign types, maybe traffic_sign=variable_speed and traffic_sign=lane_control (I've not checked taginfo to see what people are already using) which would allow navigation apps to notify a driver about a variable speed limit zone (or does that belong on the highway?), however this is getting out of scope of Graeme's original question. -- Jono ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
sent from a phone > Il giorno 30 ott 2019, alle ore 13:09, Jonathon Rossi ha > scritto: > > I didn't say these signs had to display messages that must be obeyed just > that they often do. what I meant was that we might want to distinguish between those that show information and those that show traffic signs to which you must obey. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 05:55 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > Am Mi., 30. Okt. 2019 um 11:02 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>: > >> > these aren’t traffic signs, a common, although underspecified tag is >> man_made=gantry (subtagging the type of gantry could make sense) >> > >> The gantry is the support structure. >> >> > > I am aware of this > > > >> The sign can display various messages - so variable message fits. >> > > > +1 > > >> Traffic sign also fits - the travelling time to another place reflects >> the traffic density, and vehicle crashes are traffic warnings .. >> > > > I agree this is more complicated than what I thought, because according to > the Vienna Convention on traffic, Annexe 1, information signs are a kind of > traffic sign. > Heck, Oregon has replaced a number of overhead signs with video panels. When not displaying incidental information, they show the original sign they replaced, though with some added flair. Last time I was up in Oregon, on OR 217 a number of speed limit signs had been replaced with video displays showing a speed limit and advised speed, and signs displaying distance to next exit were replaced with video displays that were cycling the miles distance display to also show kilometers (or meters for distances of 1500m or less) and average travel times. I think we're seeing the future with this, and the future is boring. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 9:35 PM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > Am Mi., 30. Okt. 2019 um 12:23 Uhr schrieb Jonathon Rossi < > j...@jonorossi.com>: > >> +1 for traffic_sign=variable_message >> >> In many jurisdictions road users must obey messages on these signs, >> including speed reductions (e.g. caused by weather), closed lanes (e.g. >> crash), and closed motorway exits/detours. >> > > of course these would all be clearly traffic signs, but signs like the one > on the picture around here never show speed limits or access restrictions, > they only show information (e.g. they might indicate that a road, bridge, > exit etc. is closed, but as an pre-announcement, not as the actual access > restriction which you will find at the spot where it applies), typically > they show the current travel times to common points, or warn about > accidents ahead, or say something general like "fasten your seatbelts", "we > wish you a good drive" etc. > I didn't say these signs had to display messages that must be obeyed just that they often do. There are plenty of painted advisory traffic/road signs, e.g. letting you know there is an upcoming sharp corner, a ford, that wildlife frequently cross an area, that the road gets narrow, and I'd call all of these a traffic sign. Wikipedia has: "Traffic signs or road signs are signs erected at the side of or above roads to give instructions or provide information to road users" OSM Wiki has: "Traffic signs give instructions or provide information to road users. Some signs are only relevant at the place where they're mounted (like e.g. a stop sign - called point-related signs from now on), while others affect a section of the road (like e.g. a "no overtaking" sign - called section-related signs)." -- Jono ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
Am Mi., 30. Okt. 2019 um 12:23 Uhr schrieb Jonathon Rossi < j...@jonorossi.com>: > +1 for traffic_sign=variable_message > > In many jurisdictions road users must obey messages on these signs, > including speed reductions (e.g. caused by weather), closed lanes (e.g. > crash), and closed motorway exits/detours. > of course these would all be clearly traffic signs, but signs like the one on the picture around here never show speed limits or access restrictions, they only show information (e.g. they might indicate that a road, bridge, exit etc. is closed, but as an pre-announcement, not as the actual access restriction which you will find at the spot where it applies), typically they show the current travel times to common points, or warn about accidents ahead, or say something general like "fasten your seatbelts", "we wish you a good drive" etc. Sometimes they are combined with variable speed limits. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
It would make sense to use man_made=gantry as the main feature tag + traffic_sign=variable_message to specify what is on the gantry. Joseph On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 8:23 PM Jonathon Rossi wrote: > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 8:01 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The sign can display various messages - so variable message fits. >> >> Traffic sign also fits - the travelling time to another place reflects >> the traffic density, and vehicle crashes are traffic warnings .. >> >> I think traffic_sign=variable_message is good for the feature you report. >> > > +1 for traffic_sign=variable_message > > In many jurisdictions road users must obey messages on these signs, > including speed reductions (e.g. caused by weather), closed lanes (e.g. > crash), and closed motorway exits/detours. Similar to these pixel based > Variable Message Signs, there are what is usually referred to as a > Changeable Message Sign which has a fixed set of messages (2-4) where > narrow sections will rotate to display a message, usually used for closing > rural roads without power, a solar panel will drive the sections to rotate > into place. > > VMS are often used to display travel time messages so they do something > useful until there is a higher priority message for motorists. > > In the Intelligent Transport Systems (ITS) industry there are also a bunch > of others specialised electronic signs, including Variable Speed Limit > signs (dynamic speed with the option of a flashing annulus/red circle, used > either pole mounted on either side of the road or on a gantry above lanes, > also used in school zones), and Lane Use/Control Signals (displaying the > permitted usage of a lane usually mounted above the lane, i.e. open, > closed, or indicating you need to merge, on motorways especially with tidal > flow/reversible lanes). > > > -- > Jono > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 8:01 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > The sign can display various messages - so variable message fits. > > Traffic sign also fits - the travelling time to another place reflects the > traffic density, and vehicle crashes are traffic warnings .. > > I think traffic_sign=variable_message is good for the feature you report. > +1 for traffic_sign=variable_message In many jurisdictions road users must obey messages on these signs, including speed reductions (e.g. caused by weather), closed lanes (e.g. crash), and closed motorway exits/detours. Similar to these pixel based Variable Message Signs, there are what is usually referred to as a Changeable Message Sign which has a fixed set of messages (2-4) where narrow sections will rotate to display a message, usually used for closing rural roads without power, a solar panel will drive the sections to rotate into place. VMS are often used to display travel time messages so they do something useful until there is a higher priority message for motorists. In the Intelligent Transport Systems (ITS) industry there are also a bunch of others specialised electronic signs, including Variable Speed Limit signs (dynamic speed with the option of a flashing annulus/red circle, used either pole mounted on either side of the road or on a gantry above lanes, also used in school zones), and Lane Use/Control Signals (displaying the permitted usage of a lane usually mounted above the lane, i.e. open, closed, or indicating you need to merge, on motorways especially with tidal flow/reversible lanes). -- Jono ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
Am Mi., 30. Okt. 2019 um 11:02 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>: > > these aren’t traffic signs, a common, although underspecified tag is > man_made=gantry (subtagging the type of gantry could make sense) > > > The gantry is the support structure. > > I am aware of this > The sign can display various messages - so variable message fits. > +1 > Traffic sign also fits - the travelling time to another place reflects the > traffic density, and vehicle crashes are traffic warnings .. > I agree this is more complicated than what I thought, because according to the Vienna Convention on traffic, Annexe 1, information signs are a kind of traffic sign. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
On 30/10/19 19:53, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone Il giorno 30 ott 2019, alle ore 08:05, Johnparis ha scritto: I'd go with traffic_sign=variable_message these aren’t traffic signs, a common, although underspecified tag is man_made=gantry (subtagging the type of gantry could make sense) The gantry is the support structure. The sign can display various messages - so variable message fits. Traffic sign also fits - the travelling time to another place reflects the traffic density, and vehicle crashes are traffic warnings .. I think traffic_sign=variable_message is good for the feature you report. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
sent from a phone > Il giorno 30 ott 2019, alle ore 08:05, Johnparis ha > scritto: > > I'd go with > > traffic_sign=variable_message these aren’t traffic signs, a common, although underspecified tag is man_made=gantry (subtagging the type of gantry could make sense) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
I'd go with traffic_sign=variable_message 223 uses on taginfo On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 7:51 AM Michael Brandtner via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I agree that advertising is not a fitting key. I could only find these: > > > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/man_made=traffic_information_display > (18 > uses) > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/highway=variable_message_sign (9 > uses) > > > Michael > > Am Mi., Okt. 30, 2019 at 3:37 schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick > : > Just doing some tagging along a motorway & spotted an electronic traffic > information sign: > > https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.5884424,152.8232412,3a,75y,110.42h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKWvFW2sU9ugwzCMYv6hTkA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 > > At this moment, it's showing travel times to various spots up ahead, but > can also display warnings re crashes etc > > Don't think it really counts as advertising=billboard > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:advertising=billboard, but what > is the better alternative? > > Thanks > > Graeme > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Billboard or something else
Hi, I agree that advertising is not a fitting key. I could only find these: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/man_made=traffic_information_display (18 uses)https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/highway=variable_message_sign (9 uses) Michael Am Mi., Okt. 30, 2019 at 3:37 schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick: Just doing some tagging along a motorway & spotted an electronic traffic information sign: https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.5884424,152.8232412,3a,75y,110.42h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKWvFW2sU9ugwzCMYv6hTkA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 At this moment, it's showing travel times to various spots up ahead, but can also display warnings re crashes etc Don't think it really counts as advertising=billboard https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:advertising=billboard, but what is the better alternative? Thanks Graeme___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
