Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters
> That said, on the ALDI UK website, only the logo depicts "ALDI." Everywhere > else on the page that the company name is rendered as ordinary text it is > "Aldi." But the German sites (https://aldi.de/ and https://www.aldi-nord.de/unternehmen/verantwortung.html) seem to use ALDI (or ALDI Nord) all over. m. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters
On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 00:02, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: > I think this comes down to OSM's "use the commonly used name" > guideline (or "common usage" guideline) which I don't think has ever > been firmly defined. As I understand it's always been on a "you know > when you see it" basis, and exceptions and rules established one by > one. > +1 We have to keep in mind that as I understand it, BBC's > editorial policy is to title-case names or acronyms that are > pronounced as a word rather than spelled out in letters (so "Nato" and > not "NATO" because they don't say "enn-eh-tee-oh"), but perhaps that's > a decent guideline for brands anyway. > Years ago, acronyms were left in upper case until they'd become accepted as common words. So, eventually, "radar" and "laser." Unless those were acronyms of proper names, when they retained upper case. My impression is that the BBC avoids all-caps whether it's an acronym or an initialism. The only exception they make is for their own name. The BBC appears to be more concerned with appearance (with least effort) than correctness. Appearance is of concern in long runs of text. All-caps STANDS OUT too much. Which was why, sometimes, small caps was used, but that also doesn't look good. Good typographers would often switch to all-caps in a smaller size, LIKE THIS (maybe, depending what your mail client does). That's too much effort, these days, so people (even the BBC) use Aldi rather than ALDI or ALDI. Shop/business names on a map are NOT long runs of text where a word in all-caps or small-caps causes a visual clash with adjacent words. It's not a problem to have ALDI or TESCO on a map. We don't need some way of switching to small caps or a smaller typeface because there isn't going to be a visual clash that requires those things. That said, on the ALDI UK website, only the logo depicts "ALDI." Everywhere else on the page that the company name is rendered as ordinary text it is "Aldi." -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters
On Sun, 29 Dec 2019 at 16:24, bkil wrote: > We had the same argument over a local mailing list and another idea came up: > some of the signage you see and many of their own website use the given > capitalization for stylistic purposes. But the question remains: why isn't a > map using stylistic capitalization? Or as some others do, why isn't > OpenStreetMap using it? > > The signs, official company registry documents, websites, receipt, press > releases, newspapers and Wikipedia sometimes contradict (Wikipedia > notoriously even within itself, so don't use that as a reference), while at > other times the mostly match. What do you think about these? I think this comes down to OSM's "use the commonly used name" guideline (or "common usage" guideline) which I don't think has ever been firmly defined. As I understand it's always been on a "you know when you see it" basis, and exceptions and rules established one by one. We can now fairly easily find how internet news sources refer to brands and that can be another indication. For the ALDI example, a search for "site:bbc.co.uk ALDI" suggests that BBC's usage is usually "Aldi". A search for "site:rbb24.de ALDI" (RBB is a local German public broadcaster) suggests that they also usually use "Aldi". We have to keep in mind that as I understand it, BBC's editorial policy is to title-case names or acronyms that are pronounced as a word rather than spelled out in letters (so "Nato" and not "NATO" because they don't say "enn-eh-tee-oh"), but perhaps that's a decent guideline for brands anyway. I would also vote for title-casing Tesco, though I was only in London for a couple of years so I can't claim nativity. Of my local Ontario brands, things like CIBC, TD, LCBO are always uppercased and spelled out in letters (they are initially acronyms) - I would ignore and fight any decree to title-case them. A less clear-up example I came across when Osmose complained was "DECIEM", I eventually title-cased it since it seemed to me a stylistic uppercase. Things like "LASIK MD" are debatable and perhaps change over time (much as radar was once a Serious Uppercase Acronym). I would lean towards leaving all-uppercase other brands that are spelled out in letters, like KFC, but there's iffier cases like "RW" where "RW" also looks okay to me. I do think that brand tagging could be a useful cop-out here. Let the brand tag be whatever the brand desires (or whatever the Wikidata entry is) and leave the name tag for the name commonly used by people rather than corporations. --Jarek ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public WLAN boxes
Okay, I guess customers may be getting a bit closer, although we would still need to convey somehow that not everyone can be a customer (for example no tourists) and that I can't just show up in person to volunteer to be a customer as wit ha cafe - I need to do my "homework" of registering at home or at another hotspot. Be advised that I wrote many parts of that wiki page, including that phrase. It was not part of the original proposal - I've merely documented what I found on TagInfo at the given time instance (it occurs 4 times at the moment that is below noise level), or at least some of the better and more consistent ideas. I'd be open to suggestions for improving any part if you see it benefits the community. I'd like to point out that the word "charge" around here is mostly used in the meaning of replenishing electric charge into the battery of a device. It is so widely used in this sense that even many of those understand it who don't speak English! In this context, I think it could be confused with amenity=device_charging_station, although I acknowledge that a mapper needs a certain amount of ingenuity to mix this up. On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 10:36 PM marc marc wrote: > Le 29.12.19 à 21:50, bkil a écrit : > > fee=no @ register with an Italian phone number > > it seems to indicate that it's fee=yes if you don't register, > which doesn't seem to fit with what you're saying. > I prefer : > internet_access:fee=customers (you need to be a customer of it... some > use access for that) > internet_access:fee:amount=0 (the wiki suggest this key but > internet_access:charge is imho better) > internet_access:description=* > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public WLAN boxes
Le 29.12.19 à 21:50, bkil a écrit : > fee=no @ register with an Italian phone number it seems to indicate that it's fee=yes if you don't register, which doesn't seem to fit with what you're saying. I prefer : internet_access:fee=customers (you need to be a customer of it... some use access for that) internet_access:fee:amount=0 (the wiki suggest this key but internet_access:charge is imho better) internet_access:description=* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters
Le 29.12.19 à 22:23, bkil a écrit : > What do you think about these? if the value is an abbreviation, then it's a short_name (but brand doesn't have a short_brand key, in this case it's normal to put the abbreviation in uppercase in brand=*) if the value is not an abbreviation, I will use the usual (first letter in upper case, the others in lower case) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters
I find it amusing that some of the other big map providers have chosen a different "canonical" capitalization of the same trademarks. So they either are not canonical after all, or we misunderstood the meaning of the name=* key all along. I think when deciding such issues, we would need to share an established path of reasoning and/or reliable references. We had the same argument over a local mailing list and another idea came up: some of the signage you see and many of their own website use the given capitalization for stylistic purposes. But the question remains: why isn't a map using stylistic capitalization? Or as some others do, why isn't OpenStreetMap using it? The signs, official company registry documents, websites, receipt, press releases, newspapers and Wikipedia sometimes contradict (Wikipedia notoriously even within itself, so don't use that as a reference), while at other times the mostly match. What do you think about these? ALDI: Albrecht-Diskont https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi#History Lidl: Ludwig Lidl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidl#History SPAR, SPAR express, DESPAR, etc.: Door Eendrachtig Samenwerken Profiteren Allen Regelmatig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spar_(retailer)#Etymology Obi: "the name goes back to the French pronunciation of the word hobby" https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obi_(Baumarkt)#Geschichte TESCO: "the initials of the supplier's name (TES), and the first two letters of his surname (CO)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesco#Origins On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:36 AM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > > > On 15. Dec 2019, at 19:26, Markus wrote: > > > > If we enter names exactly as they appear on signs, we would have to > > change all place names to all caps in Italy, France and likely in > > other countries too. > > > > as a general rule, all names exactly as they appear on signs does not > work. Name is the common name as decided by the mapper and according to the > conventions we have set up (e.g. generally no abbreviations, unless the > name itself is an abbreviation, like AT etc.) > It can still make sense to have a dedicated tag for the name as it is sign > posted (e.g. there are occasionally typos on signs, and for people that > don’t know the situation it could be useful to have this information for > orienteering on the ground), just like we have official_name for cases > where the common name is different (and a variety of tags for alternative > names). > Apparently, name:signed is the most common tag (if I didn’t miss > something) with currently 551 uses. > > For example there can be different name versions on different signs for > the same feature (e.g. abbreviated and not street names), and even errors > /typos on signs can occur. > > Cheers Martin > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public WLAN boxes
I probably wouldn't add the antenna tags either, unless it is visible and useful for navigational purposes. If possible, please add the network name as well, something like this: operator=Comune di Cividale del Friuli internet_access=wlan internet_access:ssid=FVGWiFi This is a bit sketchy question, as without additional tags, people could mistake these for real open hotspots that are open to tourists as well: "Places where internet access is only for members or private persons, and not offered to the general public. This includes your personal home DSL, LAN, WLAN, any internal networks of companies, and internet access only for students (e.g., WLAN hotspots on the campus), because these are not open to the general public." Although, I think we can rightly map these because it does good service to the local community, but we should somehow differentiate it. Maybe like so? fee=no @ register with an Italian phone number description=Registration through a live Internet connection and giving an Italian phone number is required I've seen other hotspots that also need registrations, but which allow you to register on site via their walled garden (or endorsing the operator on social media, etc.). This one is different, because I think you need to prepare well in advance before going out on the streets. Maybe we should invent some new tags for this. I found internet_access:registration=* not specific enough. Maybe internet_access:registration=in_advance/on_site/no? Furthermore, linking to information regarding how you can freely register may prove useful (although viewing that needs an Internet connection as well..), like: contact:website=http://www.regione.fvg.it/rafvg/cms/RAFVG/infrastrutture-lavori-pubblici/telecomunicazioni/FOGLIA5/ (Or would operator:website be more appropriate?) Someone has been attempting to use amenity=internet_access, amenity=wifi (sic!) or service=internet_access as a primary tag, but it is not established yet - internet_access=* usually comes second to some other primary tag (like leisure=park, amenity=bench, amenity=cafe, highway=footway, etc) indicating what kind of function the access point is attached to (roughly the scope of operation or "range", although we are not allowed to map the exact range itself). Finally, could you by any chance get in contact with the operator and ask if we could import the data behind their access point map? Thanks for the great efforts - if we could find answers to the above, we'll be able to map a lot of similar networks in the future. On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:23 AM Cascafico Giovanni wrote: > > Hello ML, > which tags for those boxes, usually on pole or wall mounted which > provide free public WLAN access? In my area they are managed by > municipality and are subject to registration. > > My tagging would be: > > man_made=antenna > operator=Comune di Cividale del Friuli > antenna:application=wlan > internet_access=wlan > fee=no > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] szekler_gate vs. szekely_gate?
Just a quick question to some native speakers, which one would you understand as more correct? artwork_type = szekler_gate tourism = artwork vs. artwork_type = szekely_gate tourism = artwork For describing the following very common objects in central Europe: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sz%C3%A9kely_gates https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kelykapu ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
