Re: [Tagging] Running but no hiking/walking

[Mike Thompson]

All,

Thanks for the suggestions and discussion.  I have implemented
Martin's suggestion:
foot=no
foot:conditional = yes @ running

Mike

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag way with two traffic signs affecting different directions?

[Volker Schmidt]

For the first problem I have often used an approximate approach, in the
sense that if there were two different-level "give-ways" I would put the
more severe one, i.e. the stop.
In other cases I have created two ways taking the painted divider as a real
one.
For the second problem, I have simply ignored it.

I agree all three are not satisfactory.

The relation solution seems to be correct approach to me, even though it is
little-used.
There are 59 stop or give-way relations in the US, but 57 of them are in
the same city.
But there are >1392 relations with restriction:bicycle=give_way in France
and the Relation restriction Wiki page

lists it. They ave popped into existence with the turn-right-on-red for
bikes regulation, which is spreading in Europe.
So it would be a small extrapolation from there to having generic stop and
give-way restriction relations.


On Sat, 2 May 2020 at 22:29, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> On Sat, 2 May 2020 at 16:21, António Madeira 
> wrote:
> > I'm not very knowledgable about relations, and I'm sorry if I'm a bit
> confused here, but doesn't a restriction relation means the exact opposite
> of what's intended here?
> > I mean, I want to apply a STOP sign to a given lane (in a way with two
> lanes, for example) and force its action to a given direction on the new
> road ahead.
>
> IMO, a relation helps here because you can define the route which the
> rule applies to - it only applies going "from" a certain way and "to"
> a certain way, and specifically applies at a given "position".
>
> Then it is just a matter of choosing what type of relation works best,
> or creating a new type.
>
> > If neither relation scheme (enforcement or restriction) can be applied
> here (for complexity or incompatibility reasons), why not use the existing
> lanes scheme?
> > Like this:
> >
> > highway=stop
> > stop:lanes=yes|no
> > stop:turn:lanes=left
>
> Personally I've always seen highway=stop on a node, and I'm not sure
> :lanes tagging makes sense on a node (a point doesn't have lanes).
> You'd definitely need to add at least direction=forward/backward if
> tagging a node. But I wouldn't be opposed to that scheme in general.
>
> --Jarek
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag way with two traffic signs affecting different directions?

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sat, 2 May 2020 at 16:21, António Madeira  wrote:
> I'm not very knowledgable about relations, and I'm sorry if I'm a bit 
> confused here, but doesn't a restriction relation means the exact opposite of 
> what's intended here?
> I mean, I want to apply a STOP sign to a given lane (in a way with two lanes, 
> for example) and force its action to a given direction on the new road ahead.

IMO, a relation helps here because you can define the route which the
rule applies to - it only applies going "from" a certain way and "to"
a certain way, and specifically applies at a given "position".

Then it is just a matter of choosing what type of relation works best,
or creating a new type.

> If neither relation scheme (enforcement or restriction) can be applied here 
> (for complexity or incompatibility reasons), why not use the existing lanes 
> scheme?
> Like this:
>
> highway=stop
> stop:lanes=yes|no
> stop:turn:lanes=left

Personally I've always seen highway=stop on a node, and I'm not sure
:lanes tagging makes sense on a node (a point doesn't have lanes).
You'd definitely need to add at least direction=forward/backward if
tagging a node. But I wouldn't be opposed to that scheme in general.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag way with two traffic signs affecting different directions?

[António Madeira]

Às 15:36 de 02/05/2020, Philip Barnes escreveu:

Hi António
Normally I would add direction:forward or direction:backward to a stop
or give_way to indicate which direction it applies in.

Where speed limits are different you can use maxspeed:backward and
maxspeed:forward.

Phil (trigpoint)


Phil, you need to read more carefully what's this about, because it's
way more complex than that.



Às 16:47 de 02/05/2020, Jarek Piórkowski escreveu:

António, interesting question. In my interpretation, relation
type=enforcement seems to be intended for recording or punishing
violations of rules (wiki "devices that measure and document traffic
violations") - not for the restrictive rules themselves.

Instead, maybe type=restriction + restriction=stop, with
from-to-via-position? It's not widely used, but it does have a couple
of mappers: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=stop

Possible examples:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3884744 except with "to" as a
way rather than node
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2966044 except probably with
the to-way split at the intersection

traffic_sign:lanes looks like it would also work, and the existing
examples seem a bit more fleshed out than for restriction=stop -
depends if you prefer :lanes tags or relations, I suppose.


This is an open issue for several years, without a seamless solution,
but I see this popping up many times when mapping.
I'm not very knowledgable about relations, and I'm sorry if I'm a bit
confused here, but doesn't a restriction relation means the exact
opposite of what's intended here?
I mean, I want to apply a STOP sign to a given lane (in a way with two
lanes, for example) and force its action to a given direction on the new
road ahead.
The wiki page for this type of relation doesn't mention STOP nor GIVEWAY
signs, but in the discussion page there this:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:restriction#Incorporate_.27give_way.2Fyield.27_and_.27stop.27_as_possible_restrictions

If neither relation scheme (enforcement or restriction) can be applied
here (for complexity or incompatibility reasons), why not use the
existing lanes scheme?
Like this:

|highway=stop stop:lanes=yes|no stop:turn:lanes=left |




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Re: [Tagging] How to tag way with two traffic signs affecting different directions?

[Jarek Piórkowski]

Phil, the question appears to be for different signs/rules for
different lanes/turns but in the same direction.

António, interesting question. In my interpretation, relation
type=enforcement seems to be intended for recording or punishing
violations of rules (wiki "devices that measure and document traffic
violations") - not for the restrictive rules themselves.

Instead, maybe type=restriction + restriction=stop, with
from-to-via-position? It's not widely used, but it does have a couple
of mappers: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=stop

Possible examples:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3884744 except with "to" as a
way rather than node
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2966044 except probably with
the to-way split at the intersection

traffic_sign:lanes looks like it would also work, and the existing
examples seem a bit more fleshed out than for restriction=stop -
depends if you prefer :lanes tags or relations, I suppose.

--Jarek


On Sat, 2 May 2020 at 14:36, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
> Hi António
> Normally I would add direction:forward or direction:backward to a stop or 
> give_way to indicate which direction it applies in.
>
> Where speed limits are different you can use maxspeed:backward and 
> maxspeed:forward.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
> On Sat, 2020-05-02 at 15:16 -0300, António Madeira wrote:
>
> Hi there.
> Following this topic, I would like to extend the discussion to the mail list, 
> because I think this is an important issue that should have a broad solution.
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=69011
>
>
> Several months ago, I stumbled upon a problem which I found no solution to. 
> At the time, I searched for help in the Telegram channel and someone gave me 
> a solution that I've been using since then.
> Meanwhile, another mapper contacted me in private and told me about another 
> kind of solution to this problem.
> I would like to know if these are both valid and/or which one is more useful 
> for routing.
>
> I'm showing here illustrations of the problem and the two solutions given.
>
>
> Problem #1:
> https://i.imgur.com/8MiiKFH.png
>
> The selected way has a STOP at the end for those who turn left and a give way 
> sign for those who turn right.
> The "problem" is: how to map those two signs correctly and make them useful 
> for routing software?
>
> Problem #2:
> https://i.imgur.com/cLFRtLG.png
>
> There are no painted islands and no physical divisions. The middle lane as a 
> STOP sign to turn left.
>
> If you have
> lanes=3;
> lanes:forward=1;
> lanes:backward=2;
> turn:lanes:backward=left|through
>
> how do you indicate that there's a STOP on one of them?
>
>
>
>
> Solution #1:
> https://i.imgur.com/HDmvZiB.png
>
> Use both traffic signs on the way and create one enforcement relation for 
> each of them. A "from" enforcement on the STOP and a "to" on the left segment 
> of "Rua Paulo VI" and a "from" enforcement on the give way and a "to" on the 
> right segment of "Rua Paulo VI".
>
>
> Solution #2:
> Just use the following tags:
> highway=secondary
> lanes=2
> oneway=yes
> name=Rua da Quinta
> ref=EN 350
> surface=asphalt
> traffic_sign:lanes=stop|give_way
> turn:lanes:forward=left|right
>
> I never used traffic_sign:lanes tag, but it seems legit, although Taginfo 
> only shows 20 uses for this:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=traffic_sign%3Alanes
>
>
> Any considerations would be much appreciated.
>
> Regards.
>
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>
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>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag way with two traffic signs affecting different directions?

[Philip Barnes]

Hi AntónioNormally I would add direction:forward or direction:backward
to a stop or give_way to indicate which direction it applies in.
Where speed limits are different you can use maxspeed:backward and
maxspeed:forward.
Phil (trigpoint)

On Sat, 2020-05-02 at 15:16 -0300, António Madeira wrote:
> Hi there.
> 
> Following this topic, I would like to extend the discussion to
> the
> mail list, because I think this is an important issue that should
> have a broad solution.
> 
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=69011
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Several months ago, I stumbled upon a problem which I found no
> solution to. At the time, I searched for help in the Telegram
> channel and someone gave me a solution that I've been using since
> then.
> 
> Meanwhile, another mapper contacted me in private and told me
> about
> another kind of solution to this problem.
> 
> I would like to know if these are both valid and/or which one is
> more useful for routing.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm showing here illustrations of the problem and the two
> solutions
> given.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Problem #1:
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/8MiiKFH.png
> 
> 
> 
> The selected way has a STOP at the end for those who turn left
> and a
> give way sign for those who turn right.
> 
> The "problem" is: how to map those two signs correctly and make
> them
> useful for routing software?
> 
> 
> 
> Problem #2:
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/cLFRtLG.png
> 
> 
> 
> There are no painted islands and no physical divisions. The
> middle
> lane as a STOP sign to turn left.
> 
> If you have
> 
>   lanes=3;
> 
>   lanes:forward=1;
> 
>   lanes:backward=2;
> 
>   turn:lanes:backward=left|through 
> 
> how do you indicate that there's a STOP on one of them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Solution #1:
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/HDmvZiB.png
> 
> 
> 
> Use both traffic signs on the way and create one enforcement
> relation for each of them. A "from" enforcement on the STOP and a
> "to" on the left segment of "Rua Paulo VI" and a "from"
> enforcement
> on the give way and a "to" on the right segment of "Rua Paulo
> VI".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Solution #2:
> 
> Just use the following tags:
> 
> highway=secondary
> 
> lanes=2
> 
> oneway=yes
> 
> name=Rua da Quinta
> 
> ref=EN 350
> 
> surface=asphalt
> 
> traffic_sign:lanes=stop|give_way
> 
> turn:lanes:forward=left|right
> 
> 
> 
> I never used traffic_sign:lanes tag, but it seems legit, although
> Taginfo only shows 20 uses for this:
> 
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=traffic_sign%3Alanes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any considerations would be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards.
> 
>   
> 
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[Tagging] How to tag way with two traffic signs affecting different directions?

[António Madeira]

Hi there.
Following this topic, I would like to extend the discussion to the mail
list, because I think this is an important issue that should have a
broad solution.
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=69011


Several months ago, I stumbled upon a problem which I found no solution
to. At the time, I searched for help in the Telegram channel and someone
gave me a solution that I've been using since then.
Meanwhile, another mapper contacted me in private and told me about
another kind of solution to this problem.
I would like to know if these are both valid and/or which one is more
useful for routing.

I'm showing here illustrations of the problem and the two solutions given.


*Problem #1:*
https://i.imgur.com/8MiiKFH.png

The selected way has a STOP at the end for those who turn left and a
give way sign for those who turn right.
The "problem" is: how to map those two signs correctly and make them
useful for routing software?

*Problem #2:*
https://i.imgur.com/cLFRtLG.png

There are no painted islands and no physical divisions. The middle lane
as a STOP sign to turn left.

If you have
lanes=3;
lanes:forward=1;
lanes:backward=2;
turn:lanes:backward=left|through

how do you indicate that there's a STOP on one of them?




*Solution #1:*
https://i.imgur.com/HDmvZiB.png

Use both traffic signs on the way and create one enforcement relation
for each of them. A "from" enforcement on the STOP and a "to" on the
left segment of "Rua Paulo VI" and a "from" enforcement on the give way
and a "to" on the right segment of "Rua Paulo VI".


*Solution #2:*
Just use the following tags:
highway=secondary
lanes=2
oneway=yes
name=Rua da Quinta
ref=EN 350
surface=asphalt
traffic_sign:lanes=stop|give_way
turn:lanes:forward=left|right

I never used traffic_sign:lanes tag, but it seems legit, although
Taginfo only shows 20 uses for this:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=traffic_sign%3Alanes


Any considerations would be much appreciated.

Regards.
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Re: [Tagging] Running but no hiking/walking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. May 2020, at 17:15, Kovoschiz  wrote:
> 
> Eg "walking speed" is often
> used as a descriptor, and in this case we have "running".


walking speed is still a prescription for vehicles only, it does not exclude 
pedestrians from running.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Running but no hiking/walking

[Kovoschiz]

While I could agree with this, it isn't entirely unreasonable to have a
non-exact speed value if that's what's signed. Eg "walking speed" is often
used as a descriptor, and in this case we have "running". I found that there
was a unclear/rejected proposal a decade ago (if this diminishes its
relevance)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/maxspeed_walk

Kovoschiz



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Re: [Tagging] Running but no hiking/walking

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 1:02 AM Peter Elderson  wrote:
>
> How is this access preference indicated?
There are signs that say something like "No Hiking, ... Mtn Bikes,
Horses, and Trail Runners Only"

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Food sharing

[Markus Peloso]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/food_sharing
A shelf/box/fridge where people drop off and pick up food in the sense of free 
sharing and/or to reduce food waste.

Hi

I have made some changes in the proposal of amenity=food_sharing to give more 
clarity about what you can expect in this facility. I want to start voting in a 
few days.

Does anyone have any additions or comments?

Best regards

Markus (ToastHawaii)

Von: Markus Peloso
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Februar 2020 10:36
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Food sharing

Hi Hauke

Thank you for your inputs (and warnings ;) ). Free choice is important to me.

I added the covered=* tag to the list. And add contact:* as a possible 
combination.

I see the list of combinations more as a suggestion/inspiration, so that useful 
(or preferred) combinations can always be added to the POIs without being on 
the list.

Best regards, Markus

Von: Hauke Stieler
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Februar 2020 19:41
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Food sharing

Hi,

sometimes people just use boxes or the basket of an old bicycle for food
sharing purposes. Because they are usually not inside a building or
something, I would add the "covered=*" tag to your list.

I also would use the "contact:*" keys (for the website, facebook, other
social media channels, etc.). The "contact:facebook" key is also used
more often and I personally like the contact scheme. Some boxed may also
have other contact options (email, phone, instagram, twitter, ...). I
know the whole contact-scheme-thing might end up in a large discussion,
but I just wanted to mention it.

But the general proposal looks good, the tagging is simple and
everything is straight forward :)

Hauke

On 26.02.20 09:47, Markus Peloso wrote:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/food_sharing
>
>
>
> «A shelf/box/fridge where people drop off and pick up food in the sense
> of free sharing and/or to reduce food waste.»
>
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> I added the current proposal for food sharing I made to the wiki.
>
>
>
> What do you think about it?
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Markus
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Running but no hiking/walking

[Peter Elderson]

How is this access preference indicated?

(If it's by speed, I wouldn't be allowed even when running... yesterday I
barely managed 6,7 Kmph on a trail run).

Best, Peter Elderson


Op vr 1 mei 2020 om 22:38 schreef Mike Thompson :

> Hello,
>
> We have a trail [0] around here where walking/hiking is not allowed,
> but running is. Currently it is tagged foot=yes, which doesn't give
> the full story. In case you are wondering how such a situation could
> come about, it is because the land manager wants faster traffic (trail
> runners, mountain bikes and horses) on this trail, and slower traffic
> (walkers/hikers) on a more or less parallel route.  Any suggestions as
> to how to tag?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
> [0] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/449200803
>
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