Re: [Tagging] How to tag a graffiti?

[Clifford Snow]

When I lived in a suburb of Minneapolis, we had this bridge that everyone
graffitied. Some of it was typical trash, but others were works of art,
including Prince on a motorcycle. About the same time out came Prince's
album, Graffiti Bridge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_Bridge_(album) The art stayed up
longer than normal but after a time it was graffitied over. Last time I was
in town, I drove past the bridge but it was long gone. Or because the area
changed so much I couldn't find it :)

I suspect that graffiti is too transitory to map. But if I had been
contributing to OSM I would have added it - and if Steve would have started
OSM before 1990.


On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 5:22 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> it’s a qualifier that is highly subjective as noted by Paul. The
>> criterion is *you*. If you believe it should be mapped, then do it.
>>
>> Add an image= tag if you like, and if you are going to add further detail
>>
>
> And it's also, like many other things, blurry.  Is this graffiti, or a
> mural,
> or a memorial? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53247629
> I'd say it's not a mural but is graffiti.  It's also a memorial.  Somebody,
> not me, mapped it as a monument although I don't think monument
> applies: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6211918213
>
> BTW, that looks like a milk churn stand to the right of the memorial.
> I should get around to asking if that needs a proposal or if there was
> insufficient objection to a value already in use (one time!) that it can
> just be documented without a formal vote.
>
> And then there's this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46634242
> Mural or graffiti?  Given the way it was painted, it could be classed as
> graffiti.  Very notable, even though unsigned.
>
> --
> Paul
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Open-air stage

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Trying to tag this outdoor stage:
https://hota.com.au/hota-precinct/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/-28.00213/153.41696
(Best image is off Maxar Premium if it doesn't come through?)

The photo is of the outdoor stage (the actual stage itself is behind the
closed doors), with a roof over it, but the audience sit outside, on the
grass, with no seating or roof.

By their own description "There’s a unique outdoor stage in the parklands
for live events"

Options appear to be theatre=open_air
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:theatre:type%3Dopen_air
which says "At an open-air stage, the stage has no roof and also the
spectators sit outdoors"

or theatre=amphi
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:theatre:type%3Damphi
"An amphitheater has an *oval* or *circular* stage with seating that
*surrounds* the central function area like a modern open-air stadium"

So neither of those fit the situation where customers sit on the ground,
with no cover, in front of a covered stage?

Some discussion from several years ago that doesn't resolve anything:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#open_air_theatre

Carrying on from the building itself, would the grassed area out the front
where the customers sit, be mapped as a park, or some form of theatre or
seating tag (even though there are no actual seats)?

Thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag a graffiti?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 7/1/20 18:03, António Madeira wrote:
> What is the criteria to tag a graffiti?
> Since there's no wiki for this type of artwork, the only information
> that exists is "A notable graffiti work", here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:artwork_type
> 
> So, what is a notable graffiti? A signed one? A big one? An authorized one?
> There are all kind of graffitis around cities nowadays, many of them
> mere vandalism or simple drawings in abandoned or ruined places.
> Wouldn't it be helpful to clarify and build an useful wiki for this?

The one that first comes to mind is the "Be Someone" graffiti that has
become a landmark here in Houston. Something well known among the
general population, that when it gets defaced it makes the mainstream
news, etc. This particular graffito was painted on the side of the
railroad overpass, and the railroad company just left it there figuring
it was more trouble than it was worth to abate it.

However, now that I look at this more closely, I think the way the tag
is set up is questionable, as technically (almost) any type of artwork
could also be a graffiti or an equivalent thereof, though I would expect
most to be at least nominally murals. Also, graffiti could either be a
style (particularly when lettering is involved) or a characteristic of
its original (lack of) authorization to be made where it was.

Thoughts?

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag a graffiti?

[António Madeira]

Well, depends on what you consider a mural to be. The distinction
between a mural and a graffiti should also be better defined.
A mural can be any painting or artwork apllied on a wall, indoors or
outdoors.
I would say that an outdoor mural is always a graffiti if it is painted.




Às 21:21 de 01/07/2020, Paul Allen escreveu:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Martin Koppenhoefer
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:


it’s a qualifier that is highly subjective as noted by Paul. The
criterion is *you*. If you believe it should be mapped, then do it.

Add an image= tag if you like, and if you are going to add further
detail


And it's also, like many other things, blurry.  Is this graffiti, or a
mural,
or a memorial?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53247629

I'd say it's not a mural but is graffiti.  It's also a memorial. 
Somebody,
not me, mapped it as a monument although I don't think monument
applies:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6211918213


BTW, that looks like a milk churn stand to the right of the memorial.
I should get around to asking if that needs a proposal or if there was
insufficient objection to a value already in use (one time!) that it can
just be documented without a formal vote.

And then there's this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46634242
Mural or graffiti?  Given the way it was painted, it could be classed as
graffiti.  Very notable, even though unsigned.

--
Paul


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag a graffiti?

[António Madeira]

Yes, these are the two main issues regarding this tag: subjectiveness
and permanence.

Maybe a wiki could help and clarify what is a "notable" one.
This question arose in the Portuguese Telegram channel, where someone
was tagging pokemon paintings he himself did around his city. Some of
them are small, one of them is a bit bigger, covering an entire electric
distribution box.

Notable could be considered a "lasting" graffiti, recognisable as part
of the urban landscape and not just a drawing somewhere in the back of
lamp post or over a manhole.


Às 20:24 de 01/07/2020, Paul Allen escreveu:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 00:05, António Madeira mailto:antoniomade...@gmx.com>> wrote:


So, what is a notable graffiti? A signed one? A big one? An
authorized one?


Notable graffiti is graffiti that people take note of. It's as simple
as that.

It's subjective.  Do you think it ought to be mapped, for whatever reason?
Then it might be notable.

I'd be more worried about permanence.  Most graffiti is unauthorized and
could be removed at some time in the future.

--
Paul




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag a graffiti?

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> it’s a qualifier that is highly subjective as noted by Paul. The criterion
> is *you*. If you believe it should be mapped, then do it.
>
> Add an image= tag if you like, and if you are going to add further detail
>

And it's also, like many other things, blurry.  Is this graffiti, or a
mural,
or a memorial? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53247629
I'd say it's not a mural but is graffiti.  It's also a memorial.  Somebody,
not me, mapped it as a monument although I don't think monument
applies: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6211918213

BTW, that looks like a milk churn stand to the right of the memorial.
I should get around to asking if that needs a proposal or if there was
insufficient objection to a value already in use (one time!) that it can
just be documented without a formal vote.

And then there's this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46634242
Mural or graffiti?  Given the way it was painted, it could be classed as
graffiti.  Very notable, even though unsigned.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Jul 2020, at 01:18, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> How would you tag your example?  It doesn't really seem a good fit for
> any tag we have.


I don’t know the specific place, but typically I would tag
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=kebap

It also says “pizza” but from looking at the place I would say it is not a 
place you would like to find when looking for pizza, that’s why I would omit it 
probably ;-) I know may seem inconsistent. For good pizza places you should 
look out for oven=wood_fired anyway. Generally the distinction is “cut pizza” 
(al taglio), “round pizza” (pizze tonde) and places like this. ;-)

I am not adding takeaway and seating tags until now, but I might start doing 
it. 

IMHO it’s not an issue that there is seating, I expected that these places have 
seating, until you claimed they did not ;-)

We must not require a fast_food to have seating or not IMHO, although it may be 
good to add this as additional information, but if the place had a few more 
seats, or no seats at all, the basic category would remain the same for me 
(primarily interested in the kind of food they sell).

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag a graffiti?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Jul 2020, at 01:05, António Madeira  wrote:
> 
> What is the criteria to tag a graffiti?
> Since there's no wiki for this type of artwork, the only information
> that exists is "A notable graffiti work", here:


it’s a qualifier that is highly subjective as noted by Paul. The criterion is 
*you*. If you believe it should be mapped, then do it.

Add an image= tag if you like, and if you are going to add further detail

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 1:18 AM Paul Allen  wrote:
> I can't let Britain down in the bizarre food vendors contest. A butcher near
> me sells various types of raw meat (obviously).  There are also racks
> outside on the pavement: a rack of fruit and a rack of vegetables.  I was
> informed a few years ago by an alcoholic that the butcher also sold wine
> (I never went in to check).  During tourist season, also outside is a chicken
> rotisserie.  So he sells fast food.  How do we tag a fast food, alcoholic,
> grocering butcher?
>
> How would you tag your example?  It doesn't really seem a good fit for
> any tag we have.
>

Oh yeah, that's common around here as well! Some butchers sell all
kinds of interesting ready to eat things, like salami sandwiches,
grilled chicken, fried sausages (kolbász), fatback (szalonna), ham
hock (csülök), pork rind (tepertő), breaded cheese, breaded fried meat
slices, usually all offered with pickles (kovászos uborka, vegyes
vágott) and bread, but some may also cook chips.

Actually this is an instance where I think I would accept adding both
shop=butcher and amenity=fast_food to the same node, because both
functions can stand on their own: I can purchase both raw meat and
ready to eat simple fast food.

I'm a bit puzzled about mixing in the greengrocer and drink shop
aspect, though (cuisine=* and drink=*?). There.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag a graffiti?

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 00:05, António Madeira  wrote:

>
> So, what is a notable graffiti? A signed one? A big one? An authorized one?
>

Notable graffiti is graffiti that people take note of.  It's as simple as
that.

It's subjective.  Do you think it ought to be mapped, for whatever reason?
Then it might be notable.

I'd be more worried about permanence.  Most graffiti is unauthorized and
could be removed at some time in the future.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

Funny that you mention. I've just read the Hungarian interpretation of
a legal advisor regarding what counts as seating. They were
differentiating between the sit down amenity kind and the
takeaway-only shop kind of cukrászda from a tax perspective.

According to them, in order for a _service_ to be achieved, the
customer needs to be provided with:
* tables and seating that is being periodically cleaned and reset,
* napkins,
* cutlery,
* a waste basket,
* access to a toilet.

They explicitly state that:
* all else being equal, food court type of seating and using the mall
toilets is acceptable,
* self-service is acceptable,
* boards attached to the walls or eating at the counter are not acceptable.

Source:
https://adozona.hu/2017_es_valtozasok/Fel_van_adva_az_afalecke_adokulcs_etelre_it_WUS0R3

How we usually paraphrase this is that an amenity is a place where
people would _want_ to sit down to eat and/or wouldn't be ashamed to
invite others as well.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:59 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 2. Jul 2020, at 00:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> I cannot deny the possibility, but I have never seen a takeaway
> kebab shop with seats for queuing customers.
>
>
>
> typical configuration in such places around here is a board (“table”) 
> attached to the wall and bar stools. You can use it while waiting but also to 
> eat if you want.
>
> example pic with limited outdoor and indoor seating, typical situation:
>
> https://www.zomato.com/it/roma/istanbul-kebab-pizza-flaminio-roma/photos
>
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 23:59, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> On 2. Jul 2020, at 00:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> I cannot deny the possibility, but I have never seen a takeaway
> kebab shop with seats for queuing customers.
>
>
> typical configuration in such places around here is a board (“table”)
> attached to the wall and bar stools. You can use it while waiting but also
> to eat if you want.
>
> example pic with limited outdoor and indoor seating, typical situation:
>

I've never seen anything like that with a takeaway.  Cafes, yes.  Seats
outside used when it's sunny, seats inside used when it's raining.  Not
any takeway that I recall.

Damn you foreigners with your strange foreign ways!  Why do you insist
on making everything so complicated?  It's times like this I start to take
seriously bkil's joking suggestion of lumping all food vendors under one
tag.
Real life is too blurry for us to categorize.

I can't let Britain down in the bizarre food vendors contest. A butcher near
me sells various types of raw meat (obviously).  There are also racks
outside on the pavement: a rack of fruit and a rack of vegetables.  I was
informed a few years ago by an alcoholic that the butcher also sold wine
(I never went in to check).  During tourist season, also outside is a
chicken
rotisserie.  So he sells fast food.  How do we tag a fast food, alcoholic,
grocering butcher?

How would you tag your example?  It doesn't really seem a good fit for
any tag we have.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] How to tag a graffiti?

[António Madeira]

What is the criteria to tag a graffiti?
Since there's no wiki for this type of artwork, the only information
that exists is "A notable graffiti work", here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:artwork_type

So, what is a notable graffiti? A signed one? A big one? An authorized one?
There are all kind of graffitis around cities nowadays, many of them
mere vandalism or simple drawings in abandoned or ruined places.
Wouldn't it be helpful to clarify and build an useful wiki for this?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

>> On 2. Jul 2020, at 00:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
> I cannot deny the possibility, but I have never seen a takeaway
> kebab shop with seats for queuing customers. 


typical configuration in such places around here is a board (“table”) attached 
to the wall and bar stools. You can use it while waiting but also to eat if you 
want. 

example pic with limited outdoor and indoor seating, typical situation:

https://www.zomato.com/it/roma/istanbul-kebab-pizza-flaminio-roma/photos


Cheers Martin 


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 23:21, bkil  wrote:

> Again, I still don't have enough information about your "takeaway"
> places, but if you are not satisfied with takeaway=only + capacity=0,
>

I'm not that bothered about fixing it.  I was putting it forward as an
example of the way we tag restaurants/cafes/coffee shops/fast
food not being a good fit to reality.  However, it appears that only
I care about whether or not I can sit down.

could it be also solved via subtagging?
>

It could perhaps be dealt with that way.  Another time.  Try to fix
everything at once and it all falls apart.

I can see someone started experimented with
> amenity=restaurant + restaurant=diner
>

Yikes!  To me that's a contradiction in terms.  Diners are for
blue-collar workers, restaurants for white-collar workers.  You
wouldn't know what colour collar to wear in a restaurant=diner.

That was a gross simplification with some humour thrown in.
The point is that restaurants and diners are different categories
of places to eat.  Ripped jeans and cow plop on your boots
might be normal in a diner but not in many restaurants.

>
> And: amenity=fast_food + fast_food=van/truck/street_kitchen
>

I just love me some Kentucky Fried Kitchen.  But I'm also partial
to vans in crispy batter.

Those don't look like good ideas, to me.

It even has a wiki page, although it also fell victim to Mr.
> Jeisenbe's art of deleting information:
>

He's a doctor.  He likes doing wikidectomies.

Would fast_food=diner or fast_food=takeaway cover your use cases (not
> sure about the difference)?
>

Given the number of people who say a diner isn't fast food (I tend to
agree that it usually isn't) then nope.  But I'm not that worried about
trying to fix it at this time, just hoping to avoid painting ourselves into
corners.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Jul 2020, at 00:21, bkil  wrote:
> 
> I can see someone started experimented with
> amenity=restaurant + restaurant=diner
> 
> And:
> amenity=fast_food + fast_food=van/truck/street_kitchen


to keep this straight, these are long tail values, 77% of all fast_food values 
are „cafeteria“, 12,5% are “yes”, 2% are “shawarma” and 1%pizza. street_kitchen 
is 0,7% and van 0,5%. 


restaurant has only 0,14% diner as value, most are no, yes, fast_food and even 
the great restaurant=restaurant tag has 0,56% usage. I do not want to say that 
restaurant=diner or fast_food=street_kitchen couldn’t be great tags, but they 
are basically outliers at the moment: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant#values


Cheers Martin 


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 23:11, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

takeaway oriented kebab place may still have one or two seats
> (either for waiting customers or maybe for a legal reasons)
> that are extremely rarely used
>

I cannot deny the possibility, but I have never seen a takeaway
kebab shop with seats for queuing customers.  I've seen seats
for takeaway customers at a couple of Chinese restaurants
that do takeaways, but their takeaway food was not fast.
I wouldn't consider seats for queuing customers as
turning a takeaway into a cafe - no tables, no tableware,
and they're kick you out if you tried to eat your meal in
those seats.

What about seating outside where no cover against rain is provided?
>

That's outdoor seating.  Which may be unconnected with the
takeaway.  Are you going to count a takeaway near a bus station
because there are some benches for the use of passengers?

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

Again, I still don't have enough information about your "takeaway"
places, but if you are not satisfied with takeaway=only + capacity=0,
could it be also solved via subtagging?

I can see someone started experimented with
amenity=restaurant + restaurant=diner

And:
amenity=fast_food + fast_food=van/truck/street_kitchen

It even has a wiki page, although it also fell victim to Mr.
Jeisenbe's art of deleting information:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:fast_food&oldid=1929947

Would fast_food=diner or fast_food=takeaway cover your use cases (not
sure about the difference)?

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:31 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 22:10, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yeah, but we're being told that British takeaways are very different
>> from other casual food places that have seating
>
>
> A takeaway doesn't have seating.
>
>> and the provision of seating is of key interest to Paul.
>
>
> Yep.  If you're on foot (I usually am) and you live in a country that is
> often cold and it frequently rains (I do) then seating is a key factor
> in deciding where to go for food.
>>
>>
>> So, are they different enough to have a new root tag? Or do we accept
>> ambiguity of cafe/fast_food root tags and specify with subtags?
>
>
> Or do we smoosh them all up into one aggregate tag and not bother
> with distinctions?  That would work.  It would make it far easier to
> tag things.  No agonizing decisions about whether it's one thing
> or
>>
>>
>> In my reading, that's what the entire discussion has been about.
>
>
> I think it also had a little to do with exploring cultural differences both
> in how different cultures categorize things, and how those cultures
> use tags for those categories, and where the mismatches are, and
> how we fix things.
>
> BTW, I happily admit to being the only member of my own culture.
> It's distantly related to British culture, but with some quirks. :)
>
> --
> Paul
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jul 1, 2020, 23:30 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 22:10, Jarek Piórkowski <> ja...@piorkowski.ca> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah, but we're being told that British takeaways are very different
>>  from other casual food places that have seating
>>
>
> A takeaway doesn't have seating. 
>
takeaway oriented kebab place may still have one or two seats 
(either for waiting customers or maybe for a legal reasons)
that are extremely rarely used

>
>
>> and the provision of seating is of key interest to Paul.
>>
>
> Yep.  If you're on foot (I usually am) and you live in a country that is
> often cold and it frequently rains (I do) then seating is a key factor
> in deciding where to go for food.
>
What about seating outside where no cover against rain is provided?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 22:10, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

>
> Yeah, but we're being told that British takeaways are very different
> from other casual food places that have seating


A takeaway doesn't have seating.

and the provision of seating is of key interest to Paul.
>

Yep.  If you're on foot (I usually am) and you live in a country that is
often cold and it frequently rains (I do) then seating is a key factor
in deciding where to go for food.

>
> So, are they different enough to have a new root tag? Or do we accept
> ambiguity of cafe/fast_food root tags and specify with subtags?
>

Or do we smoosh them all up into one aggregate tag and not bother
with distinctions?  That would work.  It would make it far easier to
tag things.  No agonizing decisions about whether it's one thing
or

>
> In my reading, that's what the entire discussion has been about.
>

I think it also had a little to do with exploring cultural differences both
in how different cultures categorize things, and how those cultures
use tags for those categories, and where the mismatches are, and
how we fix things.

BTW, I happily admit to being the only member of my own culture.
It's distantly related to British culture, but with some quirks. :)

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 21:54, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 1. Jul 2020, at 02:29, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > Few people would want to stand
> > in a queue while raw food is cooked for them.
>
> You have been writing a lot about cooking raw food,


When talking of cafes, yes.  Especially the ones that do an all-day
breakfast
fry-up.  It depends on their size, time of day, etc, but smaller ones can't
risk pre-preparing a lot of food.


> but regular restaurants also use a lot of ingredients that have been
> precooked, typically by themselves , maybe not yet finished but to a point
> where they can be finished quicker.


Very true.  Common to bad Indian restaurants - pre-cooked meats, pre-cooked
sauces, keep them all hot and throw them together to give tandoori lamb or
tandoori chicken or lamb madras or...  Not much like the real cuisine.


> AFAIK also the British cuisine has lots of stews and similar food that has
> not to be cooked freshly to the minute and that needs significant cooking
> time.


Not many posh restaurants have stew on the menu, as I recall.

It’s not the waiting time that’s the main distinction between a fast food
> and a restaurant, it’s also the time you give yourself for eating and the
> ambience. For example a restaurant without tablecloth is not thinkable (at
> least in many countries) while a fast food hardly ever has it.
>

I mentioned ambience wrt restaurants many posts ago.  But there is also,
usually, a longer waiting time in restaurants than cafes.  And it's
entirely possible
that in some restaurants the waiting time is artificially stretched (some
computer
programs and on-line equivalents do the same thing because many people
wouldn't
trust them if they returned the result very quickly).

>
> Think about sushi, it is generally not considered fast food, but it can be
> prepared relative quickly because no cooking is involved.
>

So food that is not "fast food" can be fast.  Does that mean that some fast
food
can be slow?  And McDonalds are fast food restaurants.  And Little Chef
transport
cafes are roadside restaurants.

It's getting very blurry again.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 16:55, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> On 1. Jul 2020, at 02:51, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>> Do we want to introduce new tags for gastronomical service places? If
>> yes, so far takeaway has one of the clearer definitions I've seen, so
>> we could start there.
>
> we already have the quite established tag takeaway=yes/no/only
> no need to reinvent the wheel: 
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/takeaway#values

Yeah, but we're being told that British takeaways are very different
from other casual food places that have seating and the provision of
seating is of key interest to Paul.

So, are they different enough to have a new root tag? Or do we accept
ambiguity of cafe/fast_food root tags and specify with subtags?

In my reading, that's what the entire discussion has been about.

--Jarek

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Jul 2020, at 13:34, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
>> Eh, as opposed to retagging coffee shops or McDonald's being feasible?
> 
> Indeed.  That was my point.  There's a lot that doesn't work well, but it's
> too late to fix it with retagging. 


To give some numbers, wrt McD 99,53% of them are tagged as amenity=fast_food 
99% also have a cuisine=burger tag (smells like an automatic edit)
92,6% are also takeaway=yes (the missing 7% do not have a takeaway tag)
All numbers referring to brand McD, there will be more with only a name tag but 
they were harder to check ;-)
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/brand=McDonald's#combinations

Cheers Martin ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Jul 2020, at 02:51, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
> 
> Do we want to introduce new tags for gastronomical service places? If
> yes, so far takeaway has one of the clearer definitions I've seen, so
> we could start there.


we already have the quite established tag takeaway=yes/no/only
no need to reinvent the wheel: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/takeaway#values

Cheers Martin ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Jul 2020, at 02:29, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Few people would want to stand
> in a queue while raw food is cooked for them.


You have been writing a lot about cooking raw food, but regular restaurants 
also use a lot of ingredients that have been precooked, typically by themselves 
, maybe not yet finished but to a point where they can be finished quicker. 
Many dishes require a lot of preparation and cooking and customers would not be 
willing to wait 2 or 3 hours and more for their meal. It depends on the kind of 
meal of course. Imagine a restaurant starting to clean the vegetables for the 
broth that’s needed for cooking the meat ;-) AFAIK also the British cuisine has 
lots of stews and similar food that has not to be cooked freshly to the minute 
and that needs significant cooking time. Most soups require long cooking. 

It’s not the waiting time that’s the main distinction between a fast food and a 
restaurant, it’s also the time you give yourself for eating and the ambience. 
For example a restaurant without tablecloth is not thinkable (at least in many 
countries) while a fast food hardly ever has it.

Think about sushi, it is generally not considered fast food, but it can be 
prepared relative quickly because no cooking is involved.

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 20:00, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 1. Jul 2020, at 12:55, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > Of
> > course, most people in the UK don't know that and just stick up a
> > house name or change an existing one without approval.  Other
> > jurisdictions may not require approval.
>
> it does not mean we can not recognize the housenames that aren’t approved.
> We do not have to follow official housename rules and could say that a sign
> with a housename on it is sufficient for inclusion in OpenStreetMap (and
> these could be useful even if they are not officially recognized).
>

I wasn't suggesting otherwise. Official sources of house names may be
unavailable to us because of copyright.  But even if those are available,
I consider the house name that is actually displayed on the house to
override the official name.  A map that displays the official name is of
little use to somebody looking for the displayed name.  The owner is
likely to pass on the displayed name, so anyone trying to find it on a
map which has only the official name won't find it.  Similarly, when
navigating, it's useful to have the name on the map match what is
actually visible.

What's on the ground beats what's in an official record.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Jul 2020, at 12:55, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Of
> course, most people in the UK don't know that and just stick up a
> house name or change an existing one without approval.  Other
> jurisdictions may not require approval.


it does not mean we can not recognize the housenames that aren’t approved. We 
do not have to follow official housename rules and could say that a sign with a 
housename on it is sufficient for inclusion in OpenStreetMap (and these could 
be useful even if they are not officially recognized).

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Jul 2020, at 04:35, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Highly likely these are errors. However it is not impossible that a number 
> could be used as a house name.


can you give an example?

By which definition a number written as number can be a „name“? 

If it is, I would suspect a tagging error, because if the name is „fiftyfour“, 
you should not write it „54“ or „LIV“ 

Probably most cases can be solved remotely by looking at the surroundings.

I agree that we could ask the mappers in the remaining cases.

Cheers Martin 



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

>> > Shop=pastry?
>> >
>>
>> Unfortunately we can't use that tag, as the menu of a cukrászda far
>> exceeds the definition of what the word "pastry" implies. They usually
>> offer many items from the following categories:
>> * cakes
>> * cookies
>> * custards
>> * doughnuts
>> * frozen desserts
>> * puddings
>> * scones
>> * sugar confections
>> * sweet pastries
>> * sweet pies
>
>
> What you list is a mix of (to use the technical terms) baker's confectionery
> and sugar confectionery.
>

Almost right, but see the rational definition from Wikipedia:

> Bakers' confectionery includes sweet baked goods, especially those that are 
> served for the dessert course.
> Bakers' confections are sweet foods that feature flour as a main ingredient 
> and are baked.

The above list and the menu of a cukrászda may also include desserts which:
* need cooking, but not baking,
* need no cooking or baking at all,
* do not have flour as the main ingredient,
* some that bakers aren't allowed to make in Hungary (only a cukrász
or a pastry cook).

I based these top level dessert/sweet categories on these pages:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_desserts
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pastries
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastry
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confectionery

> What a shame we don't have a word that
> combines both types of item.
>
> Actually, we not only have such a word, we have the corresponding tag:
> shop=confectionery.  However, the wiki contradicts itself.  The first 
> paragraph
> includes cakes and croissants as items it sells.  The second paragraph says
> that shops selling cakes should be shop=pastry.
>
> Also, I don't know about the UK in general, but I can only remember
> seeing "confectionery" applied to sweet shops that want to appear
> up-market.  Wiktionary agrees with me.  Wikipedia doesn't.
>

Unfortunately, my position as a foreigner is pretty weak when trying
to argue about the meaning of English words with a native speaker, but
let me share the insight I gained after analyzing a few articles.

The word "confectionery" can mean both
* sugar confections alone,
* and a broad category that encompasses both sugar confections and
baker's confections.

This confusion causes the kind of documentation inconsistency that you
observe. Hence we should avoid words with such confusing multiple
meanings in OpenStreetMap if possible. Hence I propose that we
deprecate shop=confectionery and introduce shop=sugar_confections
instead.

A word even worse than this is "pastry", that could refer to:
* a kind of dough,
* vaguely "small tarts and other sweet baked products",
* a mostly specific category of desserts outlined in the above
taxonomy related to the second point,
* sometimes incorrectly to various desserts in general.

Though the last one doesn't seem to be an accepted meaning, this error
occurs a lot on Wikipedia (possibly propagated by non-native
speakers).

After some more effort, I could narrow down the definition to
something manageable by cross checking with my taxonomy outlined
above, but the blur between its meanings also warrants avoidance in
OpenStreetMap.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jul 1, 2020, 13:49 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

>
> On 30/06/2020 14:06, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
>
>> We have 15000 addresses such as addr:housename=3 ( 
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/VBS )
>>
>> Is there some chance that any of them is valid? Because it seems to me that
>> editors should complain about addr:housename with just numbers.
>>
>
> Any?  Quite possibly:
>
> https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-addresses/
>
> (especially "A building name won't also be a number").  Pretty much every 
> edge case exists somewhere.
>
> I doubt that those 15k are all valid though.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
Still, even that is 
"Ben Tilly reports on Ten Post Office Sq, Boston MA 02109 USA - which is not, 
reportedly, the same as 10 Post Office Sq, Boston MA 02109 USA."

So housename "Ten" and housenumber "10".
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 13:54, bkil  wrote:

>
> > It would need guidance in the wiki as to where the line is between a
> > coffeehouse (or whatever we call it) and a cafe that isn't a coffeehouse.
>
> Yes, that should be a good idea before someone submits a grand
> unification proposal.
>

We need rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

> Shop=pastry?
> >
>
> Unfortunately we can't use that tag, as the menu of a cukrászda far
> exceeds the definition of what the word "pastry" implies. They usually
> offer many items from the following categories:
> * cakes
> * cookies
> * custards
> * doughnuts
> * frozen desserts
> * puddings
> * scones
> * sugar confections
> * sweet pastries
> * sweet pies
>

What you list is a mix of (to use the technical terms) baker's confectionery
and sugar confectionery.  What a shame we don't have a word that
combines both types of item.

Actually, we not only have such a word, we have the corresponding tag:
shop=confectionery.  However, the wiki contradicts itself.  The first
paragraph
includes cakes and croissants as items it sells.  The second paragraph says
that shops selling cakes should be shop=pastry.

Also, I don't know about the UK in general, but I can only remember
seeing "confectionery" applied to sweet shops that want to appear
up-market.  Wiktionary agrees with me.  Wikipedia doesn't.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

> The only possible downside I see is that it requires more carto code if you
> want different icons.  But that would be necessary however we did this.
>

Possibly. But if part of the world already uses amenity=café for
places that do not primarily focus on coffee, this icon revision based
on subtypes is unavoidable and a beneficial update.

>  Of course, the unambiguous,
> uncontaminated name would be cukrászda, but I doubt that would
> go down well with those who don't speak Magyar.

Yes, tagging with "cukrászda" would be the best. ;-) Although, people
would have a hard time typing the accent, and surely it's not a
Hungarian invention. I imagine it could have been inspired by the
French patisserie and brought in from Germany to the Austro-Hungarian
Monarchy.

>  Maybe > cafe=beverages?  I'm not entirely happy with that as it implies
> nothing but beverages.
>

Just to recap, a cukrászda is kind of an artisan fancy dessert bakery,
cakery & confectionery that operates as a café where they replace
"coffee" with "desserts" in people's minds.

They may offer liquid desserts as well, but this is usually not a
defining characteristic.

> It would need guidance in the wiki as to where the line is between a
> coffeehouse (or whatever we call it) and a cafe that isn't a coffeehouse.
>

Yes, that should be a good idea before someone submits a grand
unification proposal.

> Do sandwiches as well as cakes make it a diner?  How about if there
> are hot sausage rolls, too?  What is the classification of the places
> at smaller railway stations that have this sort of menu but aren't
> places people go to socialize?
>

If the primary audience is hungry travelers, then it would probably be
a diner (or a fast food restaurant, not sure about the difference in
the UK). Otherwise if they just want to have something to go with the
tea or coffee, it's not a diner.

It's pretty subjective and culture dependent what people usually mean
by "go with" in this context, but local mappers can almost always
determine that with high accuracy.

For example, some cultures would call for cookies with their tea,
while others do pretzels or peanuts, still others may be fine with
thin sausage stick snacks, a pickled egg or a mini sandwich. Surely
you can get "filled" with any kind of food item if you consume a vast
amount of it, but the intention here is that the meal part should not
be that "filling" to the point of being an obstacle to further drink
consumption .

>> Or even this one:
>> amenity=cafe + cafe=teehouse
> For golfers? :)
>

Hah, a mind spoiled by the command line. Hm, should have been
amenity=cafe + cafe=teahouse...

>> For the kind of cukrászda where you can not sit in, we could also add
>> takeaway=only/capacity=0 to this or maybe introduce shop=*** instead.
>
>
> Shop=pastry?
>

Unfortunately we can't use that tag, as the menu of a cukrászda far
exceeds the definition of what the word "pastry" implies. They usually
offer many items from the following categories:
* cakes
* cookies
* custards
* doughnuts
* frozen desserts
* puddings
* scones
* sugar confections
* sweet pastries
* sweet pies

> I'm kind of puzzled as to how the socialization aspect of a cukrászda works 
> when
> there are no seats. :)
>

Indeed, the socialization aspect is not important for shops. However,
what is still important is:
* they focus on various desserts and usually appeal based on the looks,
* have a refrigerated translucent counter,
* their products are hand made,
* the products are usually not prepackaged,
* the products are perishable, usually without added extra
preservatives in most items,
* they are usually a family owned small producer, not a retailer,
* they hold appropriate government "cukrász"/confectioner/whatever
licenses as per country regulations and/or advertise their cooking
certificates and awards on the wall,
* they usually offer on demand customization, made to order,
* they usually offer a choice of bottled drinks to go with your dessert.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Andy Townsend]

On 30/06/2020 14:06, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
We have 15000 addresses such as addr:housename=3 ( 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/VBS )


Is there some chance that any of them is valid? Because it seems to me 
that

editors should complain about addr:housename with just numbers.


Any?  Quite possibly:

https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-addresses/

(especially "A building name won't also be a number").  Pretty much 
every edge case exists somewhere.


I doubt that those 15k are all valid though.

Best Regards,

Andy



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:51, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 20:28, Paul Allen  wrote:
> > On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Jarek Piórkowski 
> wrote:
> >> Maybe tag them amenity=takeaway
> >
> > Good idea.  Except that value is not officially agreed and isn't
> > rendered.  Are you suggesting somebody propose it?
>
> It doesn't look like being officially agreed has helped us much with cafe,


Ouch!


> Do we want to introduce new tags for gastronomical service places? If
> yes, so far takeaway has one of the clearer definitions I've seen, so
> we could start there.
>

Or maybe we could subtag, as bkil recently suggested.  That solves
a lot of problems.

> In any case, given the number of places already
> > mapped, retagging of that sort isn't feasible.
>
> Eh, as opposed to retagging coffee shops or McDonald's being feasible?
>

Indeed.  That was my point.  There's a lot that doesn't work well, but it's
too late to fix it with retagging.  Subtagging would be a better approach as
that leaves existing POIs as being under-specified but details can
 be added.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 03:10, bkil  wrote:

> So just a quick idea, what do you think if we subtyped amenity=café?
>

On first thought, sounds good.  I reserve the right to change my mind later
(it's possible some problem will occur to me), but right now I like it.  It
means
you can map something that you see in passing without having to go inside
and inspect the menu in detail, but it can be refined later.  It means that
no
existing amenity=cafe is wrong, just not completely specified, which is a
big plius.

The only possible downside I see is that it requires more carto code if you
want different icons.  But that would be necessary however we did this.

>
> What non-UK people refer to as a café:
> amenity=cafe + cafe=coffeehouse
>

Works for places that call themselves coffee houses.  It's not great for
those that call themselves tea shops, even though both would sell
coffee and tea.  Not so good for places focusing on other types of drink.
I'd prefer a more inclusive name but I can't think of one.  I can live with
coffeehouse if everyone else can.  Of course, the unambiguous,
uncontaminated name would be cukrászda, but I doubt that would
go down well with those who don't speak Magyar.  Maybe
cafe=beverages?  I'm not entirely happy with that as it implies
nothing but beverages.

It would need guidance in the wiki as to where the line is between a
coffeehouse (or whatever we call it) and a cafe that isn't a coffeehouse.
Do sanwdiches as well as cakes make it a diner?  How about if there
are hot sausage rolls, too?  What is the classification of the places
at smaller railway stations that have this sort of menu but aren't
places people go to socialize?

>
> Diners/greasy spoon and whatnot:
> amenity=cafe + cafe=diner
>

That's an Americanism.  It's also the case that a British cafe and an
American diner have some differences.  But there is variation in both
and the commonalities probably outweigh the differences.  I can't
think of anything better at the moment.

>
> Or even this one:
> amenity=cafe + cafe=teehouse
>

For golfers? :)

>
> For the kind of cukrászda where you can not sit in, we could also add
> takeaway=only/capacity=0 to this or maybe introduce shop=*** instead.
>

Shop=pastry?

I'm kind of puzzled as to how the socialization aspect of a cukrászda works
when
there are no seats. :)

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 03:35, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Highly likely these are errors. However it is not impossible that a number
>
> could be used as a house name.
>
>
Not impossible.   But very unlikely.  In the UK, you're meant to get your
house name approved by the local authority (county council or unitary
council, in most cases) and that is very unlikely to be approved.  Of
course, most people in the UK don't know that and just stick up a
house name or change an existing one without approval.  Other
jurisdictions may not require approval.

Even so, how would one tell if "39" displayed on a house is intended to be
a name rather than a number?  One way, I suppose, would be if a house
displayed both an in-sequence number and a different number, but maybe
the house has been split up into two dwellings and one given a new
number.  But in that case it would be nore likely that 6 would be split
into 6 and 6A, or into 6A and 6B, than into 6 and 39.

I once mapped a building with "Number 39" displayed on it in very big
letters.  The houses adjacent to it were 38 and 40.  It was an office of
some sort.  A bit of digging indicated it might be the office of a
company providing probation services, so "Number 39" was probably
intended to prevent people being embarrassed by being seen
entering a probation office whilst making it very clear to those
attending for the first time that this was the building they were looking
for.

It's barely possible the number on a building could be a house name.  Some
madcap owner deciding to confuse people.  Or some business like 3 Mobile
(UK cellphone network) using "3" as both the business name and the building
name, although I'd expect something like "3 House" in that case.

My opinion is treat it as an error.  In the few cases (if any) that
the number really is the house name, then it's the owner's problem
for choosing a stupid name.

I shall now apply to my council to name my house "This is not a house
name."

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi *

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 03:16:38PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> sent from a phone
> > On 30. Jun 2020, at 15:08, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Is there some chance that any of them is valid?
> 
> 
> IMHO not, these are likely autocompletion bloopers. I’d support an
> automatic retagging effort to addr:housenumber (unless there is
> already a different housenumber)

I had a quick look as addr:housename around where i feel interested
and 99% are broken. Most of the time it belongs into name as its
the companys name, sometimes its abused as replacement for ref
of buildings. Sometimes its just a duplication of some other
tags content.

And most of the time you find that you'll find even more tag abuse 
and random invented tags. In my case they were mostly 8+ years old.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging