Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks!

Graeme


On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 08:13, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Sorry Graeme, that should have said American style, where the waitress is
> refilling mugs from a carafe
>
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

Sorry Graeme, that should have said American style, where the waitress is 
refilling mugs from a carafe 

Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 23:04, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 19:22, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> I've got to say that personally, I don't think there's a need for a separate 
> "speciality" tag, but regardless of that, I'd like to know what an 
>> Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes
> Australian-style cafe is, & how our's differ from everywhere else?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 19:22, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

I've got to say that personally, I don't think there's a need for a
separate "speciality" tag, but regardless of that, I'd like to know what an

> Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes
>
Australian-style cafe is, & how our's differ from everywhere else?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 08/07/2020 16.31, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

On 08/07/2020 12.34, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

BTW, is your project including something that can be tested already?


I was referring to "traffic simulation project" mentioned in
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-July/053879.html
and I hoped that it is something both already released and released to public


No, it isn't released yet... maybe soon (in theory we have permission to 
release it as open source, but I want to get confirmation), but it's 
also still in the embryonic stage. So far all I have is a "toy" 
application that uses Valhalla to generate a route given a start and 
stop lat/lon. The eventual goal is to leverage OSM information 
(buildings and their tags, POI's and their tags) to automatically select 
start and stop points in order to generate *lots* of routes, and to then 
feed that into SUMO for kinematic simulation.


Thanks for the interest, though!

--
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jul 8, 2020, 19:02 by mwoehlke.fl...@gmail.com:

> On 08/07/2020 12.34, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
>
>> BTW, is your project including something that can be tested already?
>>
>
> I don't understand the question?
>
I was referring to "traffic simulation project" mentioned in
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-July/053879.html
and I hoped that it is something both already released and released to public
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:
> 
> 
> 
> 8 Jul 2020, 16:35 by elga...@agol.dk:
> 
> Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> 
> Disclaimer: this is all US law. If you live in another country, YMMV.
> 
> 
> Yes, facts are not copyrightable.
> 
> In Europe we unfortunately have the Database Directive
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive
> 
> Which is probably what Google would use.
> 
> They might not win, but OSM should not spend unnecessary time in courts.
> Who wants a new SCO vs IBM/(Linux)?
> 
> 
> 
> https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/710/can-i-use-google-streetview-to-help-create-maps
> 
> ==
> The question has been closed for the following reason "The question has 
> turned into a
> debate, which would be better suited for the legal-talk@ mailing list. 
> OSM's position
> on sources is to be whiter-than-white, and not to use any third-party 
> sources for
> which we do not have explicit permission. Please direct any further 
> follow-ups to
> legal-talk@. Thanks --Richard" by Richard 31 May '12, 17:15
> 
> Exactly, we are not Pirate Bay
> or Internet Archive or Wikidata
> and we are not on exciting adventure
> of what kind of copyright rules we can 
> ignore.


Indeed, we are the ones that can say: we do not need your help. When it comes to
mapping the physical world, we can do it ourselves, bottom up.


> "hmm, it can be justified if we
> interpret law this way" or
> "they are unlikely to sue because"
> are not a good reasons to do something
> in OpenStreetMap.

And I can see the point in that line of thinking. Because who can say that they 
do
not need The Beatles or The Beach Boys or NYT articles because they can just 
make
something better themselves?

But wrt mapping, we can all just get in our car or on our bicycle today and make
something that it better than Google Street View. It will be better because if 
we do
it today it will be more current than Google Street View. For a while at least.


> Why? See case of Internet Archive
> that always was on kind of edge of
> copyright law and recently went
> too far.
> 
> Now they are in a serious legal
> trouble that has potential to end existence
> of Internet Archive with Wayback
> Machine and Open Lending Library
> (where the trouble started).
> 
> 
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> 


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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 08/07/2020 12.34, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

8 Jul 2020, 16:44 by mwoehlke.fl...@gmail.com:

On 08/07/2020 10.36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

On 8. Jul 2020, at 16:24, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
(On which note... knowing that a residence is *also* a shop is potentially 
important!)


look for shop=* rather than building typologies...


And... what, assume anything *not* a shop is a residence?


That was in response to "knowing that a residence is *also* a shop is
potentially important"
Ah, yes, sorry. I only meant that in the "please tag them" sense, not as 
far as any specific "suggestion" *how* to tag such instances. (In that 
sense, I think we're on the same page; tag the building as a house and 
add a shop POI.)



BTW, is your project including something that can be tested already?


I don't understand the question?

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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

8 Jul 2020, 16:44 by mwoehlke.fl...@gmail.com:

> On 08/07/2020 10.36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>>> On 8. Jul 2020, at 16:24, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>>> (On which note... knowing that a residence is *also* a shop is potentially 
>>> important!)
>>>
>>
>> look for shop=* rather than building typologies...
>>
>
> And... what, assume anything *not* a shop is a residence?
>
That was in response to
"knowing that a residence is *also*
a shop is potentially important"

And yes, to get this kind of info
you need to look exactly for shop=*
tags (and maybe also craft, office
and some amenity tags.

BTW, is your project including something
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

8 Jul 2020, 16:35 by elga...@agol.dk:
>> Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>> Disclaimer: this is all US law. If you live in another country, YMMV.
>>
>
> Yes, facts are not copyrightable.
>
> In Europe we unfortunately have the Database Directive
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive
>
> Which is probably what Google would use.
>
> They might not win, but OSM should not spend unnecessary time in courts.
> Who wants a new SCO vs IBM/(Linux)?
>
>
> https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/710/can-i-use-google-streetview-to-help-create-maps
>
> ==
> The question has been closed for the following reason "The question has 
> turned into a
> debate, which would be better suited for the legal-talk@ mailing list. OSM's 
> position
> on sources is to be whiter-than-white, and not to use any third-party sources 
> for
> which we do not have explicit permission. Please direct any further 
> follow-ups to
> legal-talk@. Thanks --Richard" by Richard 31 May '12, 17:15
>
Exactly, we are not Pirate Bay
or Internet Archive or Wikidataand we are not on exciting adventure 
of what kind of copyright rules we can 
ignore.

"hmm, it can be justified if we
interpret law this way" or
"they are unlikely to sue because"
are not a good reasons to do something
in OpenStreetMap.

Why? See case of Internet Archive
that always was on kind of edge of
copyright law and recently went
too far.
Now they are in a serious legal
trouble that has potential to end existence
of Internet Archive with Wayback
Machine and Open Lending Library
(where the trouble started).
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 14:34, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:06, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > My questions are along the lines of "Is there any sort of coffee shop or
> > cafe in this village?" rather than "Does it sell really expensive
> coffee?"
>
> you might want to exclude those places from your search where a cup of
> coffee is 12€ rather than 2, not?
>

Ideally, yes.  But a village of 100 people with one cafe it is unlikely
that it
will focus exclusively on very expensive coffee.  Sure, this area is
heavily dependent on tourism and there are coffee aficionados, but
you'll be lucky to get more than instant coffee.  And if an out-of-the-way
place in a village of 100 really does sell very expensive coffee, it's
pretty likely to also sell cheap coffee for the locals.

Even in the very worst case, and it only sells very expensive coffee,
you'll drink it if you're thirsty enough.  Because if you're in a car
traveling through a rural area either it's somewhere you were passing
anyway (so costs little time to stop and check) or you went out of
your way because it was by far the nearest place and you were
desperate for a drink.

Being able to map places specializing in luxury coffee is a bit of a
luxury when there are possibly many as-yet unmapped cafes.  Not
that I'd vote against a proposal to map specialty coffee places (if
the tagging is sensible) but I do wonder about some people's
priorities.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 15:40, Matthew Woehlke 
wrote:

Moreover, it would be interesting to see a court weigh in on 2b vs. 2d,
> and what exactly constitutes "use". If I look at *content* in Google
> Maps, and then copy that *content* as permitted by 2b, am I "using" Maps
> in a way that 2d prohibits?
>

It doesn't matter which clause, or even which law.  It doesn't even
matter how valid your argument is.

1) Google Maps is a way Google uses to make (or try to make) money.

2) OSM, and maps derived from it (Mapbox, etc., and Bing Maps)
compete with Google Maps anre reduce the amount of money it makes.

3) Google does not like competitors usings its product to improve
their own product at the expense of its own.

4) Google has DEEP pockets.

Points 1-3 mean that Google will use the law to try to prevent OSM
making use of its products to create maps.

Point 4 means that it doesn't matter which law, or which clause of
which law, because Google's deep pockets mean OSM cannot
afford to fight the case.  Google will use the tactic of dragging out
the trial until OSM cannot afford any more legal fees because it
is bankrupt and ceases operation completely.

Even if legally OSM were 100% in the right (and it's far from clear
that it is) it can't afford to fight the case.  The only way OSM can
avoid losing is not to fight in the first place.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 16:17, Matthew Woehlke  wrote:
> 
> Really? If Alice and Bob each own 50% of "Fairview Heights Apartments", you 
> would expect that there are legal property records indicating exactly which 
> half of said complex is owner by Alice and which half is owned by Bob? (Note 
> that the *tenants* don't own *any* of it.)


both is possible, each one can own a precise list of apartments, or both can 
own 50% of all apartments.


> 
> For condominiums, AFAIK, the *definition* of condominium vs. townhouse is 
> that you only own a specific *interior* space and *not* the exterior.


welcome to OpenStreetMap, mapping the whole world. You are looking at the 
details in a specific jurisdiction.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 08/07/2020 10.36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

On 8. Jul 2020, at 16:24, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
(On which note... knowing that a residence is *also* a shop is potentially 
important!)


look for shop=* rather than building typologies...


And... what, assume anything *not* a shop is a residence? I'm quite 
certain (based on observations of mapping in my area) that will generate 
a bunch of false positives.


I *could* (and may need to, eventually) look at zoning, but I also need 
to be able to estimate habitation density, for which I need to know ­— 
oh, hey, topical! — if a building is apartments, a terrace, or a single 
family dwelling.


--
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:59, Matthew Woehlke  wrote:
> 
> Neither Google nor anyone else can copyright facts by recording them in a 
> photograph.


they do not base their restrictions on copyright law but on contract law (terms 
of service)


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 08/07/2020 10.32, Matthew Woehlke wrote:

On 08/07/2020 10.21, Chris Hill wrote:
Google's Terms of Use prevent us reusing their Streetview in OSM, see 
section 2d.


"Apart from any license granted to you by Google, your use of the 
content may be acceptable under principles of 'fair use.' Fair use is a 
concept under copyright law in the U.S. that, generally speaking, 
permits you to use a copyrighted work in certain ways without obtaining 
a license from the copyright holder."


This smells a lot like how Red Hat prevents people from cloning them. 
Namely, they can't, because they don't have a legal leg to stand on as 
far as enforcing copyright claims against anyone doing so. What they 
*can* do is revoke the rights to use *their* services.


So, okay, I can see an argument that "copying" makes your use of Google 
maps unauthorized. I still can't see an argument where Google could come 
after OSM.


Moreover, it would be interesting to see a court weigh in on 2b vs. 2d, 
and what exactly constitutes "use". If I look at *content* in Google 
Maps, and then copy that *content* as permitted by 2b, am I "using" Maps 
in a way that 2d prohibits?


It seems pretty clear that if I were to use the Maps *software* to 
create e.g. shapefiles that I then imported into OSM, that would violate 
2d. It's much less clear that merely using Maps to cross-check *facts* 
would fall under 2d rather than 2b.


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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 08/07/2020 10.32, Matthew Woehlke wrote:

On 08/07/2020 10.21, Chris Hill wrote:
Google's Terms of Use prevent us reusing their Streetview in OSM, see 
section 2d.


"Apart from any license granted to you by Google, your use of the 
content may be acceptable under principles of 'fair use.' Fair use is a 
concept under copyright law in the U.S. that, generally speaking, 
permits you to use a copyrighted work in certain ways without obtaining 
a license from the copyright holder."


This smells a lot like how Red Hat prevents people from cloning them. 
Namely, they can't, because they don't have a legal leg to stand on as 
far as enforcing copyright claims against anyone doing so. What they 
*can* do is revoke the rights to use *their* services.


So, okay, I can see an argument that "copying" makes your use of Google 
maps unauthorized. I still can't see an argument where Google could come 
after OSM.


Moreover, it would be interesting to see a court weigh in on 2b vs. 2d, 
and what exactly constitutes "use". If I look at *content* in Google 
Maps, and then copy that *content* as permitted by 2b, am I "using" Maps 
in a way that 2d prohibits?


It seems pretty clear that if I were to use the Maps *software* to 
create e.g. shapefiles that I then imported into OSM, that would violate 
2d. It's much less clear that merely using Maps to cross-check *facts* 
would fall under 2d rather than 2b.


--
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 16:24, Matthew Woehlke  wrote:
> 
> (On which note... knowing that a residence is *also* a shop is potentially 
> important!)


look for shop=* rather than building typologies...


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Matthew Woehlke:
> On 08/07/2020 09.57, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>> On 07/07/2020 18.04, Paul Allen wrote:
>>> Copyright prevents us using Google Streetview for mapping, but we can use 
>>> it for
>>> illustrative purposes.
>>
>> Honestly, I would *strongly* question whether that is enforceable in the US 
>> (maybe
>> it is in some overprotective European nations?). When I take a picture of
>> something, the *expression* of the scene I capture is subject to copyright, 
>> but the
>> *subject matter* is not. (Well, not subject to *my* copyright, anyway; 
>> something
>> like a sculpture or building can be copyrighted by the creator thereof.) 
>> Neither
>> Google nor anyone else can copyright facts by recording them in a photograph.
> 
> Sorry, but I feel like I need to clarify this further.
> 
> Are the *actual photographs* in Google Street View copyrighted? Yes; in 
> theory there
> was a "creative choice" about where and when to take the photographs. If OSM 
> were to
> reproduce said photographs, or excerpts thereof, that would be a problem.
> 
> Is the *content* of the photographs copyrighted? No, or at least, not by 
> Google,
> except to the extent that content is a result of Google's actions. If the 
> photo has
> not been materially altered (stuff like blurring faces and license plates 
> doesn't
> matter for our purposes, because we wouldn't be "copying" that sort of thing 
> in any
> way), then the *contents* of that photo are exactly as free of copyright 
> claims as if
> someone else had taken a photo at the same time and location and declared it 
> public
> domain.
> 
> Whether or not the *contents* are subject to copyright (most likely *not* 
> Google's,
> unless we're talking about e.g. the Google campus) is a whole other kettle of 
> fish,
> that potentially affects *anyone* going to the site and recording information.
> 
> Disclaimer: this is all US law. If you live in another country, YMMV.

Yes, facts are not copyrightable.

In Europe we unfortunately have the Database Directive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive

Which is probably what Google would use.

They might not win, but OSM should not spend unnecessary time in courts.
Who wants a new SCO vs IBM/(Linux)?


https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/710/can-i-use-google-streetview-to-help-create-maps

==
The question has been closed for the following reason "The question has turned 
into a
debate, which would be better suited for the legal-talk@ mailing list. OSM's 
position
on sources is to be whiter-than-white, and not to use any third-party sources 
for
which we do not have explicit permission. Please direct any further follow-ups 
to
legal-talk@. Thanks --Richard" by Richard 31 May '12, 17:15
==


I have been adding speed limits to Danish highways. Something that would 
probably be
a lot easier with Google Street View. But I use Mapillary, OSC, and sometimes 
my own
surveys.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 07/07/2020 19.21, Paul Allen wrote:

If it was obviously built as a house I'd tag it as building=house because
anything but building=no will render identically in many cartos anyway.


On a somewhat unrelated note, I really, *really* want residences to be 
tagged as such. I'm working on a traffic simulation project, and need to 
know the "function" of a building. Residences act in the simulation very 
differently from shops or other non-residence locations. (On which 
note... knowing that a residence is *also* a shop is potentially important!)


--
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 08/07/2020 09.57, Matthew Woehlke wrote:

On 07/07/2020 18.04, Paul Allen wrote:
Copyright prevents us using Google Streetview for mapping, but we 
can use it for illustrative purposes.


Honestly, I would *strongly* question whether that is enforceable in the 
US (maybe it is in some overprotective European nations?). When I take a 
picture of something, the *expression* of the scene I capture is subject 
to copyright, but the *subject matter* is not. (Well, not subject to 
*my* copyright, anyway; something like a sculpture or building can be 
copyrighted by the creator thereof.) Neither Google nor anyone else can 
copyright facts by recording them in a photograph.


Sorry, but I feel like I need to clarify this further.

Are the *actual photographs* in Google Street View copyrighted? Yes; in 
theory there was a "creative choice" about where and when to take the 
photographs. If OSM were to reproduce said photographs, or excerpts 
thereof, that would be a problem.


Is the *content* of the photographs copyrighted? No, or at least, not by 
Google, except to the extent that content is a result of Google's 
actions. If the photo has not been materially altered (stuff like 
blurring faces and license plates doesn't matter for our purposes, 
because we wouldn't be "copying" that sort of thing in any way), then 
the *contents* of that photo are exactly as free of copyright claims as 
if someone else had taken a photo at the same time and location and 
declared it public domain.


Whether or not the *contents* are subject to copyright (most likely 
*not* Google's, unless we're talking about e.g. the Google campus) is a 
whole other kettle of fish, that potentially affects *anyone* going to 
the site and recording information.


Disclaimer: this is all US law. If you live in another country, YMMV.

--
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Johan Jönsson via Tagging]

 A reasonable simple tagging would be:amenity=café
and
cuisine=special_coffee
So you would replace the tag coffee_house with speciality_coffee
I hope that won't be too much of a nuisance as it still have the very common 
tag: café
If it is a node with an abundance of tags, I suggest using 
drink:speciality_coffee 
(and all the other nifty little tags shop, craft, brand and so forth)
/Johan Jönsson, lurker on vacation

On Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 04:00:38 PM GMT+2, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
 wrote:  

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 14:01, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> 
>> Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be searchable?
> 
> Then we need something objective.
> Maybe coffee_species or coffee_brand
> in the same way that we have breweries for restaurants.

When I arrive in a new city in a new country, I’m not familiar with the local 
brands of coffee. A cafe serving speciality coffee introduces me to them.

> If a restaurant only have beer from one brewery, then it is probably boring,
> especially if it is one of the big global companies.
> 
> If it has beers from 10+ breweries on tap then it probably cater to customers
> interested in beer and some of them will be interesting or good. Even or 
> especially
> if I do not know any of the breweries.

That’s true. 
Being able to pull up a list of cafe’s with the brands of coffee they sell and 
then searching for the roasters website should reasonably quickly tell me 
whether it’s a specialty location or not.


>> Twice as expensive as what?
> 
> €20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
> specialty.
> https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/venice-st-marks-square-cafe-prices-tourists-san-marco-a8481376.html
In my city, an espresso costs the same in a cafe in the centre and in a cafe 
outside the centre 15 minutes away with their own roastery.
> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 14:01, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> 
>> Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be searchable?
> 
> Then we need something objective.
> Maybe coffee_species or coffee_brand
> in the same way that we have breweries for restaurants.

When I arrive in a new city in a new country, I’m not familiar with the local 
brands of coffee. A cafe serving speciality coffee introduces me to them.

> If a restaurant only have beer from one brewery, then it is probably boring,
> especially if it is one of the big global companies.
> 
> If it has beers from 10+ breweries on tap then it probably cater to customers
> interested in beer and some of them will be interesting or good. Even or 
> especially
> if I do not know any of the breweries.

That’s true. 
Being able to pull up a list of cafe’s with the brands of coffee they sell and 
then searching for the roasters website should reasonably quickly tell me 
whether it’s a specialty location or not.


>> Twice as expensive as what?
> 
> €20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
> specialty.
> https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/venice-st-marks-square-cafe-prices-tourists-san-marco-a8481376.html
In my city, an espresso costs the same in a cafe in the centre and in a cafe 
outside the centre 15 minutes away with their own roastery.
> 
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 07/07/2020 18.04, Paul Allen wrote:

Copyright prevents us using Google Streetview for mapping, but we
can use it for illustrative purposes.


Honestly, I would *strongly* question whether that is enforceable in the 
US (maybe it is in some overprotective European nations?). When I take a 
picture of something, the *expression* of the scene I capture is subject 
to copyright, but the *subject matter* is not. (Well, not subject to 
*my* copyright, anyway; something like a sculpture or building can be 
copyrighted by the creator thereof.) Neither Google nor anyone else can 
copyright facts by recording them in a photograph.


There is a related issue that the information may well be out of date, 
but I honestly can't see an enforceable copyright claim.


Now, that said, if you are trying to derive accurate geoposition 
information from Google, you *might* have an issue. I cannot, however, 
see an enforceable claim of something like "such-and-such intersection 
has a 'no left turns' sign".



Because if you followed that Streetview walk, you'd have countered 33
dwellings in that terrace.  It's nice to be able to give them addresses.


Yes, they *absolutely* should have at least individual addresses, 
please! My prior residence "doesn't exist" in OSM because the single 
building only has the address of the unit two over from mine. This makes 
it harder for someone to find said house using OSM.


--
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:43, Matthew Woehlke  wrote:
> 
> In some sense, I could say that the question is whether the building is 
> *legally* multiple separate properties. For townhouses and row houses, the 
> answer is (typically) "yes". For apartments and condominiums, the answer is 
> (typically) "no".


for apartments and condominiums the answer is yes, at least some times and in 
some jurisdictions, and referring to the dwelling (the shared areas are not 
divided, there is shared ownership typically)

Cheers Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 07/07/2020 19.31, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

these are technical details that might vary, don’t know about your
jurisdiction and real estate market, but around here you do indeed
own a fraction of the building exterior and gardens, typically the
sum of all apartment surface areas is considered a 100%, and your
share of roof terrace, storage, internal access space and garden is
the fraction of your apartment divided by the total of apartment
areas. It’s also a liability (maintenance cost etc.). You also own
this fraction of the lot/ground.


But do you own a "share", or a *specific delineated portion*? IOW, say 
you own 25% of the playground; is there a legal line that you can draw 
on a map that specifies *which* 25%, or is it just 25% in an ephemeral 
sense (as is, to my understanding, usually the case in e.g. shared 
ownership of a business, or for that matter, shared ownership when a 
husband and wife own a house)? Are there legal deeds to this effect?


With row houses, there is a legal deed which precisely specifies what 
parts of the building belong to which owners.



On 7. Jul 2020, at 23:51, Matthew Woehlke wrote:

It looks like what we have here are "townhouses", which are
somewhere in between "strict" row houses and condominiums


just that there is no „town“ 


The difference between a row house and a "townhouse" (which might be a 
US thing) is that the exterior maintenance is handled by an association, 
to which you pay dues, and you can't modify the exterior without 
permission. Often, as in the original example in this thread, the 
exterior is more "clearly" a single, uniform structure as well. Both 
involve individual lots which split up the building, but what I would 
call a "strict" row house, the lot owner is responsible for the exterior 
of his/her lot.


I've lived in both.

I'm still inclined to argue that whether or not the *lots* are 
separate is probably a sensible criteria. I suspect that in your

"shared apartment ownership" example, the case is that the multiple
owners each own a 'share' of a *single* property.


it is possible (and more likely), but you could also undergo
procedures to actually split the property (maybe not in every case,
or by 12.4%, I admit I am unsure, but suppose the split parts
eventually must be independently usable, which is often but not
always possible)


Right, that's what I'm suggesting as a recommendation for 
apartment-style modeling vs. individual building modeling. We generally 
(AFAIK?) don't try to incorporate ownership information into the map 
(well, aside from maintenance purposes), but I can absolutely argue that 
mapping individual land deeds is useful and/or interesting.


In some sense, I could say that the question is whether the building is 
*legally* multiple separate properties. For townhouses and row houses, 
the answer is (typically) "yes". For apartments and condominiums, the 
answer is (typically) "no". So the recommendation would be "look up the 
property boundaries, and is they split the building, model it as split 
at the property boundaries, otherwise model it as a single building".


--
Matthew

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Martin Koppenhoefer:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:04, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
>>
>> €20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
>> specialty.

I see that I made a typo. I meant "should qualify".
> 
> 
> it’s not as if a coffee in Venice costs 20€ a cup, you will get good coffee 
> for 1€ in any normal bar. It costs 20€ if you sit on San Marco’s square in a 
> posh cafe with waiters and live orchestra music. It’s the location and the 
> presentation that you pay for, not the coffee.

Yes that is what I meant.


The same here in Copenhagen. The expensive places does not have the best coffee.


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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:06, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> My questions are along the lines of "Is there any sort of coffee shop or
> cafe in this village?" rather than "Does it sell really expensive coffee?"


you might want to exclude those places from your search where a cup of coffee 
is 12€ rather than 2, not?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:04, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> €20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
> specialty.


it’s not as if a coffee in Venice costs 20€ a cup, you will get good coffee for 
1€ in any normal bar. It costs 20€ if you sit on San Marco’s square in a posh 
cafe with waiters and live orchestra music. It’s the location and the 
presentation that you pay for, not the coffee.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 14:00, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> We also do not have special tags for specialty wine or whiskey or bread.
> For food we do have start but only stars that are awarded by recognised 
> tourism boards.


we do have shop=deli
while you’re right that microbrewery is about the size, I would not neglect 
that the assumption is also decent quality.

IMHO there is room for specialty coffee in OpenStreetMap, e.g. a significant 
price difference compared to usual local coffee prices could serve for 
verification.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 13:15, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

On 8 Jul 2020, at 13:08, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 13:00, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
>
> In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?
>>
>
> Price, maybe. Specialty coffee (or anything else) costs more.  However,
> blind tasting of wine has shown that perceived quality is strongly
> influenced by presentation (if it looks expensive, people think it
> tastes better).
>
>
> Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be
> searchable?
>

There is a group of people within OSM that have the mantra "OSM is not
a gazetteer."  I think that's overly-strict, but when we get down to
tagging speciality coffees, I can see their point.

OSM is a map.  We tag places like shops and cafes primarily
because they are waypoints: "Turn left after Walmart."
Secondarily we tag those places in more detail because it's
useful: a convenience store versus a gift shop.  When
we get down to listing every individual item sold, we've
gone far too far.

Is specialty coffee a step too far?  Yes, because it's
subjective and is likely to become (if it hasn't already)
an abused marketing term.  Anybody can take some
vile coffee beans, roast them badly, and it's speciality
coffee (it's certainly out of the normal).  It's too
subjective.  Price is verifiable.

So rather than tagging it as specialty, or of high quality, just
> tag it as expensive=yes.  At least that is verifiable.  If
> it's more than (say) twice the average price, it's expensive.
>
>
> Twice as expensive as what?
>

Did you see where I wrote "average price"?  If most places sell coffee
for $2, I'd consider $4 expensive.  Maybe you'd prefer to flag 3 standard
deviations from the mean as expensive.  Whatever formular you come
up with, it would be verifiable.

Not that I think we should be mapping price, either.  Sure, if we had
a mapper on every street corner diligently keeping everything current
(no more than a week between inspections) we could consider mapping
these sorts of details.

In the meantime, I'm putting all my time into mapping three geographically
large counties in slightly less detail, and there's still a hell of a lot
yet to map.
My questions are along the lines of "Is there any sort of coffee shop or
cafe in this village?" rather than "Does it sell really expensive coffee?"
I'd rather try to cater to those who are thirsty enough to drink
anything rather than those who would willingly die of dehydration than
drink cheap coffee.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Jake Edmonds via Tagging:

>>
>> Price, maybe. Specialty coffee (or anything else) costs more.  However,
>> blind tasting of wine has shown that perceived quality is strongly
>> influenced by presentation (if it looks expensive, people think it
>> tastes better).
> 
> Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be searchable?

Then we need something objective.
Maybe coffee_species or coffee_brand
in the same way that we have breweries for restaurants.

If a restaurant only have beer from one brewery, then it is probably boring,
especially if it is one of the big global companies.

If it has beers from 10+ breweries on tap then it probably cater to customers
interested in beer and some of them will be interesting or good. Even or 
especially
if I do not know any of the breweries.


>> So rather than tagging it as specialty, or of high quality, just
>> tag it as expensive=yes.  At least that is verifiable.  If
>> it's more than (say) twice the average price, it's expensive.
> 
> Twice as expensive as what?

€20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
specialty.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/venice-st-marks-square-cafe-prices-tourists-san-marco-a8481376.html

>> Or maybe we just don't bother.  That would be my preference.
>>
>> -- 
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 12:58, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
>> ‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available,
> 
> 
> microbrewery beer is not necessarily special or better. It is made on the 
> premises.

Of course, but it’s generally understood that a microbrewery will be focusing 
on quality brewing.

> Specialty coffee is just about the quality and price which is very subjective.
> 
> We also do not have special tags for specialty wine or whiskey or bread.
> For food we do have start but only stars that are awarded by recognised 
> tourism boards.
> 
> In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?

> 
>> Europe is already a major coffee market accounting for 30% of global 
>> consumption, but
>> is seeing a growth in demand for specialty coffee while overall demand 
>> remains
>> stable[16].
> 
> Yes, there are many new very good coffeeshops here in Europe. But I would not 
> know
> how to separate specialty coffee from not-specialty. Except that coffee-shops 
> that
> are not part of a chain tend to have a better selection of coffee.

Advertising which small-batch/micro roasters supply their coffee separates 
them. It’s not unusual to have multiple beans to choose from.
It’s also typical to see these establishments selling beans and home brewing 
equipment, including accessories such as scales and goose-neck kettles.


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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 13:08, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 13:00, Niels Elgaard Larsen  > wrote:
> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> > ‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available,
> 
> Specialty coffee is just about the quality and price which is very subjective.
> 
> +1
> 
> In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?
> 
> Price, maybe. Specialty coffee (or anything else) costs more.  However,
> blind tasting of wine has shown that perceived quality is strongly
> influenced by presentation (if it looks expensive, people think it
> tastes better).

Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be searchable?

> So rather than tagging it as specialty, or of high quality, just
> tag it as expensive=yes.  At least that is verifiable.  If
> it's more than (say) twice the average price, it's expensive.

Twice as expensive as what?

> Or maybe we just don't bother.  That would be my preference.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 13:00, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:

> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> > ‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available,
>
> Specialty coffee is just about the quality and price which is very
> subjective.
>

+1

>
> In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?
>

Price, maybe. Specialty coffee (or anything else) costs more.  However,
blind tasting of wine has shown that perceived quality is strongly
influenced by presentation (if it looks expensive, people think it
tastes better).

So rather than tagging it as specialty, or of high quality, just
tag it as expensive=yes.  At least that is verifiable.  If
it's more than (say) twice the average price, it's expensive.

Or maybe we just don't bother.  That would be my preference.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jul 8, 2020, 11:24 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 8. Jul 2020, at 11:03, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> If someone wants it is OK to map office/craft as an area inside house
>>
>
>
> yes of course, generally it is a superior method, but it may be not worth the 
> effort in most cases
>
I mentioned it solely because someone was asking about any possible variants,
usually it is not worth doing.
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jul 8, 2020, 11:20 by tagging@openstreetmap.org:

> exceptional quality coffee, both farmed and brewed to a significantly higher 
> than average standard.
> (...)
> Are suggestions? 
>

Sounds like poorly defined marketing term or something that will quickly 
degrade into it,
with Starbucks offering "specialty coffee" soon.

Is it actually verifiable in any way? Because it sounds to me that it would be 
tagging marketing
slogan used by an establishment.
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jul 8, 2020, 13:45 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 10:29, Martin Koppenhoefer <> dieterdre...@gmail.com> > 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> as nobody has replied to this, I’m asking again: is a house really only a 
>> single dwelling building, or can there be a few more?
>>
>
> There are plenty of large houses, built for a single family (with servants) 
> that
> have been split into several dwellings.  There may be several external
> entrances or one entrance.  Is it still a house even though there are
> multiple families?
>
> From the wiki: "A single dwelling usually inhabited by a single family..." 
> 
> So multiple occupation is fine.  From the outside you might never know,
> unless there are separate addresses marked in some way (such as a
> door buzzer with multiple buttons).
>
Even there you may be still wrong - in rural Poland such house will often
have a single family living there, with separate buzzers for younger
generation and separate buzzer for their parents (with older
generation typically living on ground level and younger on
the upper floor).

> If dwellings are vertical slices then there's building:part or
> mapping as individual buildings (so you can get 1A, 1B, etc.
> to show).  In many cases I'd map it as a single building=house
> and specify house number as 1A, 1B, 1C because I don't know
> the internal layout.
>
I would be strongly against slicing building into multiple
ones based on ownership or dwellings or occupancy.

I would tag building based on its structure (that typically
is clear except some cases on boundary like apparently
some row houses).

>> Are these apartment buildings?
>> https://valeriemichelledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/img_4289.jpg
>>
>
> No way of knowing from that picture.  Quite possibly built as large houses
> for wealthy families, but would require historical knowledge to be sure.
>
In my city I was unsure and ended tagging them building=residential

> May now be split into apartments, but would need closer inspection to look 
> for house numbers/buzzers/whatever.
>
This is not really relevant for tagging building tag.

> Reality is messy, our tags are messy
>
+1
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> ‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available,


microbrewery beer is not necessarily special or better. It is made on the 
premises.

Specialty coffee is just about the quality and price which is very subjective.

We also do not have special tags for specialty wine or whiskey or bread.
For food we do have start but only stars that are awarded by recognised tourism 
boards.

In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?



> typically
> relating to the entire supply chain, using single origin or single estate
> coffee[1][2]. The term was first used in 1974 by Erna Knutsen in an issue of 
> Tea &
> Coffee Trade Journal. Knutsen used specialty coffee to describe beans of the 
> best
> flavor which are produced in special micro-climates.[3]
> 
> Specialty coffee is related to what is known as the Third Wave of Coffee[4],
> especially throughout North America. This refers to a modern demand for 
> exceptional
> quality coffee, both farmed and brewed to a significantly higher than average 
> standard.’
> 
> 'While specialty coffee in North America is rarely offered in major coffee 
> chains,
> the Third Wave of Coffee[4] has resulted in a significant increase in 
> specialty
> coffee consumption. Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes have 
> opened in
> multiple cities[13][14][12]. An SCAA report estimated the US had 29,300 
> specialty
> coffee shops in 2013, up from 2,850 in 1993[15].

This thing seems a bit US-centric to me.

> Europe is already a major coffee market accounting for 30% of global 
> consumption, but
> is seeing a growth in demand for specialty coffee while overall demand remains
> stable[16].

Yes, there are many new very good coffeeshops here in Europe. But I would not 
know
how to separate specialty coffee from not-specialty. Except that coffee-shops 
that
are not part of a chain tend to have a better selection of coffee.

> In 2016, specialty coffee was Europe’s fastest growing major restaurant
> category, with an increase of 9.1% from 2014-2015.’
> 
> From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialty_coffee
> 
> 
> amenity=cafe & cuisine=coffee_shop are used to tag establishments most known 
> for
> serving coffee. This includes large chains like Starbucks that serve a 
> variety of
> coffee based drinks made with commercially roasted beans, independent cafe’s 
> serving
> either nothing but black, American style, drip coffee and those making 
> specialty
> coffee drinks.
> 
> There are tags for the preparation method:
> 
>   * drink:filter_coffee
>   * drink:espresso
>   * drink:coffee:automatic
> 
> While consumers might have a preference for the way their drink is prepared, 
> the
> coffee source is also an important factor.
> 
> I have looked through the wiki and taginfo and the closest thing I could find 
> is one
> use cafe of diet:specialty_coffee, but I’m not sure that’s an appropriate 
> namespace.
> real_ale has 1819 uses for beer with no namespace. Are suggestions? 
> 
> Other tags:
> microroasting=yes has 64 uses, mainly on amenity=cafe, in the same way
> microbrewery=yes is used for pubs.
> 
> Existing information:
> European Coffee Trip has 1893 cafe’s serving specialty coffee in Europe.
> https://europeancoffeetrip.com/city-guides/
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 10:29, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> as nobody has replied to this, I’m asking again: is a house really only a
> single dwelling building, or can there be a few more?
>

There are plenty of large houses, built for a single family (with servants)
that
have been split into several dwellings.  There may be several external
entrances or one entrance.  Is it still a house even though there are
multiple families?

>From the wiki: "A single dwelling usually inhabited by a single family..."

So multiple occupation is fine.  From the outside you might never know,
unless there are separate addresses marked in some way (such as a
door buzzer with multiple buttons).  If there is one dwelling per floor
then we have indoor mapping (but not, as yet, indoor rendering on
standard carto).

If dwellings are vertical slices then there's building:part or
mapping as individual buildings (so you can get 1A, 1B, etc.
to show).  In many cases I'd map it as a single building=house
and specify house number as 1A, 1B, 1C because I don't know
the internal layout.  Maybe in that case you could use
building=invent_new_value since anything other than
building=no will render (actually, I've never tested
building=no - maybe it also renders, which would be
amusing).

Are these apartment buildings?
> https://valeriemichelledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/img_4289.jpg
>

No way of knowing from that picture.  Quite possibly built as large houses
for wealthy families, but would require historical knowledge to be sure.
May now be split into apartments, but would need closer inspection
to look for house numbers/buzzers/whatever.

Reality is messy, our tags are messy, there is no one-to-one
correspondence between the two messes.  Don't
overthink things, or you'll get into a mess.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 11:22, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> Other tags:
> microroasting=yes has 64 uses, mainly on amenity=cafe, in the same way 
> microbrewery=yes is used for pubs.


there is also craft=coffee_roasting
1 occurrence, but seems suitable:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/craft=coffee_roasting

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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 11:04, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> If it was obviously built as a house I'd tag it as building=house
> +1


as nobody has replied to this, I’m asking again: is a house really only a 
single dwelling building, or can there be a few more?

Are these apartment buildings?
https://valeriemichelledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/img_4289.jpg


Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 11:03, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> If someone wants it is OK to map office/craft as an area inside house


yes of course, generally it is a superior method, but it may be not worth the 
effort in most cases, compared to the current general level of detail.
It can be useful when there are several things in the same building, with 
distinct entrances for example. AFAIK there isn’t a method yet for associating  
distinct entrances for things on different floors (unless you also map the 
staircases), it’s a rare situation anyway (that there are distinct staircases).

Cheers Martin 
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[Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available, 
typically relating to the entire supply chain, using single origin or single 
estate coffee[1][2]. The term was first used in 1974 by Erna Knutsen in an 
issue of Tea & Coffee Trade Journal. Knutsen used specialty coffee to describe 
beans of the best flavor which are produced in special micro-climates.[3]

Specialty coffee is related to what is known as the Third Wave of Coffee[4], 
especially throughout North America. This refers to a modern demand for 
exceptional quality coffee, both farmed and brewed to a significantly higher 
than average standard.’

'While specialty coffee in North America is rarely offered in major coffee 
chains, the Third Wave of Coffee[4] has resulted in a significant increase in 
specialty coffee consumption. Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes 
have opened in multiple cities[13][14][12]. An SCAA report estimated the US had 
29,300 specialty coffee shops in 2013, up from 2,850 in 1993[15].

Europe is already a major coffee market accounting for 30% of global 
consumption, but is seeing a growth in demand for specialty coffee while 
overall demand remains stable[16]. In 2016, specialty coffee was Europe’s 
fastest growing major restaurant category, with an increase of 9.1% from 
2014-2015.’

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialty_coffee 



amenity=cafe & cuisine=coffee_shop are used to tag establishments most known 
for serving coffee. This includes large chains like Starbucks that serve a 
variety of coffee based drinks made with commercially roasted beans, 
independent cafe’s serving either nothing but black, American style, drip 
coffee and those making specialty coffee drinks.

There are tags for the preparation method:
drink:filter_coffee
drink:espresso
drink:coffee:automatic
While consumers might have a preference for the way their drink is prepared, 
the coffee source is also an important factor.

I have looked through the wiki and taginfo and the closest thing I could find 
is one use cafe of diet:specialty_coffee, but I’m not sure that’s an 
appropriate namespace. real_ale has 1819 uses for beer with no namespace. Are 
suggestions? 

Other tags:
microroasting=yes has 64 uses, mainly on amenity=cafe, in the same way 
microbrewery=yes is used for pubs.

Existing information:
European Coffee Trip has 1893 cafe’s serving specialty coffee in Europe.
https://europeancoffeetrip.com/city-guides/


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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jul 8, 2020, 01:21 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 00:08, Martin Koppenhoefer <> dieterdre...@gmail.com> > 
> wrote:
>
>
>> traditionally, people worked and slept in the same space (the helpers), 
>> today these are typically shops and above dwelling/s. Are they „houses“, 
>> building=house?
>>
>
> Ah, so that's what you're getting at.  A lot of those in my town.  Built as 
> houses.
> Used initially, for a time, as houses (not necessarily with a workplace, often
> just a dwelling).  Later converted to have a shop on the ground floor with the
> upper floor used as a dwelling.
>
> This is the big can of worms where this list splits into two warring factions:
> one insisting that only building=yes has any meaning
>
Is anyone actually holding this opinion? 

>  If it was obviously built as a house I'd tag it as building=house
>
+1 

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Re: [Tagging] How to map terrace buildings with names

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jul 8, 2020, 01:40 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 07:45, Paul Allen <> pla16...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Building for the house, node for the workplace.  Micromappers will be upset
>> unless you place the workplace node precisely, of course, but you probably
>> have never been inside so don't know.  That's assuming it still is being
>> used as a combined dwelling and workplace
>>
>
> & then you have the residential houses where the owner works from home, & 
> advertises his trade / profession via a sign outside.
>
> I've mapped them as residential=house including the address, then with a 
> separate node of office=accountant, craft=plumber or whatever, with their 
> advertised contact number included.
>
> Any other / better way of doing it?
>
Other less correct way is to map as one object.

If someone wants it is OK to map office/craft as an area inside house 

I did it in some cases 

(1) where there was a major government office and I wanted to
help renderers to recognize it as more important than minor company offices
located in the same building

(2) office taking space in two buildings
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/620532170

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