Re: [Tagging] Proposed feature - RFC - Military Bases
But a Russian naval base would presumably be tagged "operator=Военно-морской флот" - if you do not read the Cyrrillic alphabet this is illegible. In Japan it would be "operator=海上自衛隊" All names are opaque to computers, so we use standardized tags which can be translated one time, instead of needing to translate an operator=* tag for every language and every country to make it usable. While some militaries have unusual divisions, the presence of an army, air force and navy is quite common for large countries, and it's fine if the list of values is a little longer to fit in the silly ones like "military_service=space_force". -- Joseph Eisenberg On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 2:06 PM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > > > On 10. Dec 2020, at 22:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick > wrote: > > > > military_service=army > > > do we really need military_service=army given that these services will > differ according to the country? We can tag operator =United States Army or > “United States Marine Corps” and keep lists in the wiki for standardized > names of these structures in all countries, without having to decide which > “box” they have to be put in. > > Cheers Martin > > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed feature - RFC - Military Bases
sent from a phone > On 12. Dec 2020, at 00:12, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > Going out there a bit, but I could also see cases where somebody can see > fighter jets taking off & landing, so it's obviously an Air Force base or a Navy base, or Marines. Look for a runway if you are interested in airplanes. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed feature - RFC - Military Bases
On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 at 08:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > do we really need military_service=army given that these services will > differ according to the country? We can tag operator =United States Army or > “United States Marine Corps” and keep lists in the wiki for standardized > names of these structures in all countries, without having to decide which > “box” they have to be put in. > I can't see that it would hurt having both options? After all, you don't have to enter both if you don't know the info, but as Brian pointed out, it's more data that people may want to see. Going out there a bit, but I could also see cases where somebody can see fighter jets taking off & landing, so it's obviously an Air Force base, but they tag the operator as the Chinese Air Force, which doesn't actually exist - it's the People's Liberation Army Air Force! Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?
Sorry, ignore me as it looks like the question had already been answered. When I opened the message, your original question was the only thing there, but when I answered, all the other earlier replies appeared? No idea what's going on there? Guess gmail must be having a bad morning! Thanks Graeme On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 at 08:44, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > Does each bog & marsh have it's own name, or are just different surfaces > inside one big named wetland? > > Thanks > > Graeme > > PS & please don't get frustrated & give up on trying to make progress! > > > On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 at 02:11, Anders Torger wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I was on this list a while back expressing some frustration over >> limitations when tagging nature and thought about getting involved in a >> process for change, but I came to realize that it's not feasible for me >> in my current life situation, so I've decided to continue be a normal >> mapper as before, doing what I can do with features that exist today. >> >> Anyway, if to be a mapper at all, I still like to solve some of my >> naming issues in the best/least bad ways possible today. I'm currently >> mapping a national park in Sweden, Muddus. It's in Laponia and consists >> of mighty wetlands and old forest. These wetlands are named, like is >> common in Sweden and Sami lands. For us navigating in wildlife, names in >> nature are important. >> >> A wetland polygon can be named in OSM, so the situation is better than >> for example for named slopes (also common). However, a wetland here can >> consist of both bog and marsh (and it's important to make the >> difference, since one is easy to walk on, the other not so much). That's >> two different natural types and thus can't be in the same multipolygon >> (as outers). >> >> >> ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?
Does each bog & marsh have it's own name, or are just different surfaces inside one big named wetland? Thanks Graeme PS & please don't get frustrated & give up on trying to make progress! On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 at 02:11, Anders Torger wrote: > Hello, > > I was on this list a while back expressing some frustration over > limitations when tagging nature and thought about getting involved in a > process for change, but I came to realize that it's not feasible for me > in my current life situation, so I've decided to continue be a normal > mapper as before, doing what I can do with features that exist today. > > Anyway, if to be a mapper at all, I still like to solve some of my > naming issues in the best/least bad ways possible today. I'm currently > mapping a national park in Sweden, Muddus. It's in Laponia and consists > of mighty wetlands and old forest. These wetlands are named, like is > common in Sweden and Sami lands. For us navigating in wildlife, names in > nature are important. > > A wetland polygon can be named in OSM, so the situation is better than > for example for named slopes (also common). However, a wetland here can > consist of both bog and marsh (and it's important to make the > difference, since one is easy to walk on, the other not so much). That's > two different natural types and thus can't be in the same multipolygon > (as outers). > > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed feature - RFC - Military Bases
sent from a phone > On 10. Dec 2020, at 22:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > military_service=army do we really need military_service=army given that these services will differ according to the country? We can tag operator =United States Army or “United States Marine Corps” and keep lists in the wiki for standardized names of these structures in all countries, without having to decide which “box” they have to be put in. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?
Thanks I'll do it this way then, this actually works and even gets rendered, although with OSM-Carto it becomes a name tag in each separate part so not exactly beautiful, but the data is there. /Anders On 2020-12-11 18:07, Christoph Hormann wrote: Anders Torger hat am 11.12.2020 17:07 geschrieben: The least bad way I've come up with is to just name all polygons belonging to the same wetlands the same, That is widely considered to be the correct way. It is established practice that mapping things like forest, wetland, farmland etc. can be split to differentiate tagging (like leaf_type, wetland type, crop etc.). The name tag is then applied to all components. Same as for waterways or roads where you can also split and apply the name to the components. This also matches the general concept in OSM that names are typically local properties and only locally verifiable. The Rhine river is called Rhein in Koblenz but Rhin in Strasbourg and Rijn in Rotterdam. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?
Unfortunately I don't think that is possible. Multipolygons may only contain ways that have either role as inner or as outer. It may not contain other relations (still possible to upload, but not considered right according to the wiki). What should the ways be? We can't make the separate wetland parts as inner ways, (as areas formed by the inner ways are subtracted from the multipolygon), and even if we try it becomes illegal as inner ways cannot share segments with the outer way. We can't make the parts as outers either as they share segments. The outer must be the surrounding outline without the shared segments splitting the wetland in parts, and there are no inners (unless the parts themselves has inners). So then we have a multipolygon with just an outer. I could just as well be a plain polygon made from a single closed way. This would work if drawing order was defined, and that was the method I tried first. The container polygon must have a natural tag as well (the logical would be wetland here without further sub-classification). However the drawing order is not defined (I think, not 100% sure), so this is by the renderer interpreted as a wetland lying on top of the other wetlands. OSM-Carto will still render the insides, but the fill pattern of the outer polygon is drawn on top. On 2020-12-11 18:09, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote: Hello Anders, I would recommend creating a multipolygon relation (type=multipolygon) with each of the wetland pieces, and set the name= and appropriate natural= and wetland= tags on the relation. On Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 11:11 AM Anders Torger wrote: Hello, I was on this list a while back expressing some frustration over limitations when tagging nature and thought about getting involved in a process for change, but I came to realize that it's not feasible for me in my current life situation, so I've decided to continue be a normal mapper as before, doing what I can do with features that exist today. Anyway, if to be a mapper at all, I still like to solve some of my naming issues in the best/least bad ways possible today. I'm currently mapping a national park in Sweden, Muddus. It's in Laponia and consists of mighty wetlands and old forest. These wetlands are named, like is common in Sweden and Sami lands. For us navigating in wildlife, names in nature are important. A wetland polygon can be named in OSM, so the situation is better than for example for named slopes (also common). However, a wetland here can consist of both bog and marsh (and it's important to make the difference, since one is easy to walk on, the other not so much). That's two different natural types and thus can't be in the same multipolygon (as outers). Asking on OSM Help website for a solution I got the answer to make a new containing multipolygon and set the name on that. That would be quite elegant for sure, but JOSM warns about that, can't have a name without a type, and if I set the type, say natural=wetland without any subtype, I get a JOSM warning that I have natural features on top of eachother. If I still upload it OSM-Carto does render out the name but you can see that the wetland pattern of the outer polygon is drawn on top of the contained polygons, so it does not seem to be the way to do it. The least bad way I've come up with is to just name all polygons belonging to the same wetlands the same, and hope for that in the future smart renderers will understand that polygons with shared borders and shared name is the same named entity. Any ideas or suggestions? /Anders ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?
Actually, there is no Rijn in Rotterdam. But that does not change the argument. Mvg Peter Elderson > Op 11 dec. 2020 om 18:11 heeft Christoph Hormann het > volgende geschreven: > > > >> Anders Torger hat am 11.12.2020 17:07 geschrieben: >> >> The least bad way I've come up with is to just name all polygons >> belonging to the same wetlands the same, > > That is widely considered to be the correct way. It is established practice > that mapping things like forest, wetland, farmland etc. can be split to > differentiate tagging (like leaf_type, wetland type, crop etc.). The name > tag is then applied to all components. Same as for waterways or roads where > you can also split and apply the name to the components. > > This also matches the general concept in OSM that names are typically local > properties and only locally verifiable. The Rhine river is called Rhein in > Koblenz but Rhin in Strasbourg and Rijn in Rotterdam. > > -- > Christoph Hormann > http://www.imagico.de/ > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?
Hello Anders, I would recommend creating a multipolygon relation (type=multipolygon) with each of the wetland pieces, and set the name= and appropriate natural= and wetland= tags on the relation. On Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 11:11 AM Anders Torger wrote: > Hello, > > I was on this list a while back expressing some frustration over > limitations when tagging nature and thought about getting involved in a > process for change, but I came to realize that it's not feasible for me > in my current life situation, so I've decided to continue be a normal > mapper as before, doing what I can do with features that exist today. > > Anyway, if to be a mapper at all, I still like to solve some of my > naming issues in the best/least bad ways possible today. I'm currently > mapping a national park in Sweden, Muddus. It's in Laponia and consists > of mighty wetlands and old forest. These wetlands are named, like is > common in Sweden and Sami lands. For us navigating in wildlife, names in > nature are important. > > A wetland polygon can be named in OSM, so the situation is better than > for example for named slopes (also common). However, a wetland here can > consist of both bog and marsh (and it's important to make the > difference, since one is easy to walk on, the other not so much). That's > two different natural types and thus can't be in the same multipolygon > (as outers). > > Asking on OSM Help website for a solution I got the answer to make a new > containing multipolygon and set the name on that. That would be quite > elegant for sure, but JOSM warns about that, can't have a name without a > type, and if I set the type, say natural=wetland without any subtype, I > get a JOSM warning that I have natural features on top of eachother. If > I still upload it OSM-Carto does render out the name but you can see > that the wetland pattern of the outer polygon is drawn on top of the > contained polygons, so it does not seem to be the way to do it. > > The least bad way I've come up with is to just name all polygons > belonging to the same wetlands the same, and hope for that in the future > smart renderers will understand that polygons with shared borders and > shared name is the same named entity. > > Any ideas or suggestions? > > /Anders > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?
> Anders Torger hat am 11.12.2020 17:07 geschrieben: > > The least bad way I've come up with is to just name all polygons > belonging to the same wetlands the same, That is widely considered to be the correct way. It is established practice that mapping things like forest, wetland, farmland etc. can be split to differentiate tagging (like leaf_type, wetland type, crop etc.). The name tag is then applied to all components. Same as for waterways or roads where you can also split and apply the name to the components. This also matches the general concept in OSM that names are typically local properties and only locally verifiable. The Rhine river is called Rhein in Koblenz but Rhin in Strasbourg and Rijn in Rotterdam. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?
Hello, I was on this list a while back expressing some frustration over limitations when tagging nature and thought about getting involved in a process for change, but I came to realize that it's not feasible for me in my current life situation, so I've decided to continue be a normal mapper as before, doing what I can do with features that exist today. Anyway, if to be a mapper at all, I still like to solve some of my naming issues in the best/least bad ways possible today. I'm currently mapping a national park in Sweden, Muddus. It's in Laponia and consists of mighty wetlands and old forest. These wetlands are named, like is common in Sweden and Sami lands. For us navigating in wildlife, names in nature are important. A wetland polygon can be named in OSM, so the situation is better than for example for named slopes (also common). However, a wetland here can consist of both bog and marsh (and it's important to make the difference, since one is easy to walk on, the other not so much). That's two different natural types and thus can't be in the same multipolygon (as outers). Asking on OSM Help website for a solution I got the answer to make a new containing multipolygon and set the name on that. That would be quite elegant for sure, but JOSM warns about that, can't have a name without a type, and if I set the type, say natural=wetland without any subtype, I get a JOSM warning that I have natural features on top of eachother. If I still upload it OSM-Carto does render out the name but you can see that the wetland pattern of the outer polygon is drawn on top of the contained polygons, so it does not seem to be the way to do it. The least bad way I've come up with is to just name all polygons belonging to the same wetlands the same, and hope for that in the future smart renderers will understand that polygons with shared borders and shared name is the same named entity. Any ideas or suggestions? /Anders ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] edit war related to tagging of a bus-only major road
It is very unusual, but I think that highway=secondary may be actually bus only. And I would never describe highway=secondary as a special type of highway=service Dec 11, 2020, 14:21 by jan...@gmail.com: > I think "service" is more appropriate than highway=secondary. Highway=service > has in my opinion a wider scope than secondary. In a way, secondary is a > special type of highway=service (that's the way I look at it, though other > mappers probably don't look at it that way). So if a road can not be > classified in other ways, use highway=service. If you have a better, more > narrow scope tag, like highway=busway, use that. > > Janko > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] edit war related to tagging of a bus-only major road
I agree that I would probably not use highway=service in this case, I imagine the way is important for pedestrians as well? This being said, the current tagging with access=yes, motor_vehicle=no and bus=private seems ok (routing will work as expected, if service roads are taken into account), regardless of the highway value. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] edit war related to tagging of a bus-only major road
I think "service" is more appropriate than highway=secondary. Highway=service has in my opinion a wider scope than secondary. In a way, secondary is a special type of highway=service (that's the way I look at it, though other mappers probably don't look at it that way). So if a road can not be classified in other ways, use highway=service. If you have a better, more narrow scope tag, like highway=busway, use that. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
