Re: [Tagging] Proposed feature - RFC - Military Bases

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks for those edits, Joseph.

They make things a little neater!

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Proposed feature - RFC - Military Bases

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 at 20:10, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> there are quite different kinds of bases, some are “permanent” and may be
> in the home country of the military, others may be in “allied“ nations,
> with contractual or defacto relationships, and there may be also those in
> conflict and war zones etc.
>

Yes, quite correct, but a USAF base, regardless of whether it is located in
the US, Germany or Afghanistan, will still be tagged as landuse=military +
military=base + military_service=air_force + operator=United States Air
Force.

As with most things OSM, this tag would really only apply to permanent /
long-term sites. "Temporary" locations "in the field" wouldn't be mapped or
tagged this way (plus, of course, the challenges of locating & mapping them
in a war zone!)

Their nature may be very different, e.g. used to provide replenishment,
> used as relais station for communications (including “combat“ action like
> murdering people through drone strikes), used as hospital area for injured
> soldiers, used as command stations, used as a relatively safe space in a
> combat area, ...
>

True, & there was discussion re further defining which units, or branch of
service (armour, Artillery, Military Police etc) the base houses, but I
think that may be better refined at a later date?

There’s also nowadays the situation where private contractors may be in the
> same base as the military forces.
> Operation military kids may have some information:
> https://www.operationmilitarykids.org/private-military-companies/
>
> Do you see PMC as landuse=military?
>

Hmmm, an interesting one that I hadn't thought of?

Depending on their particular role & location, I think you would find that
civilian contractors assisting the military (eg contractors to the US Army
in Iraq or Afghanistan) would be housed inside an Army base, rather than in
a compound by themselves.

Contractors inside a country eg civilian guards manning the entry gates
into a US Army Base inside America, aren't housed on the Base itself, but
would work from their own company premises, which would possibly be an
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dsecurity?

The awkward one comes in when you consider those forces which used to be
called mercenaries eg
https://ndupress.ndu.edu/Media/News/Article/2031922/mercenaries-and-war-understanding-private-armies-today/
?

Although my comment above would certainly apply about actually locating &
mapping them in a conflict zone, I'd guess that yes, they would also be
classed under landuse=military + military=base? Happy to have input on that
from anybody else with a point of view!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] addr:floor and level:ref - Wiki review welcomed

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Dec 18, 2020, 17:44 by si...@poole.ch:

>
> addr:floor is an address tag and used in -(postal)-addresses-  when the 
> floor is customarily or required to be included.
>
>
> level:ref is a SIT tag used to indicate the name (or other  numbering) of 
> a level contrary to the zero based number of the  level tag.
>
>
> While both level:ref and addr:floor can have the same value,  
> semantically they are different
>
>
Thanks for clarification! Though as far as I know in practice level tag in some 
regions is used
with 1 assigned to ground floor (I am not sure whatever to consider this as a 
tagging mistake 
or not).

> replacing level:ref with  addr:floor which is what you were suggesting 
> with what boils down  to a mechanical edit with SC, will break SIT tagged 
> buildings.
>
To be clear, I was not suggesting replacing either tag with another.

And if https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/1487
would be implemented it would be adding new tags to objects where
level tag is tagged. It would not be "upgrade tags" wikifiddling.

 if I would implementit it would not delete any existing ones.
Objects tagged already with level:ref or addr:floor or level would be skipped
and this quest would not apply to them.
In this case resurvey with StreetComplete is pointless
(unlike case of opening hours), objects such as shops in general do
not move between floors while keeping their lat/lon position.

Am 18.12.2020 um 14:01 schrieb Mateusz  Konieczny via Tagging:

>> 1) this edits were not intended as changing anything but to  
>> document current tagging
>> practice
>>
>> 2) how Simple Indoor Tagging is being broken by either of  this tags?
>>
>> 3) If SIT is broken by that tags, how it can be avoided?  
>> Recommending to use 
>> level tag together with either of this two?
>>
>>
>> Dec 18, 2020, 13:34 by >> si...@poole.ch>> :
>>
>>>
>>> This doesn't make any sense outside of trying breaking the  SIT 
>>> tagging scheme If you have changes to suggest do that in  the 
>>> context of  an SIT improvement and not just so that you  can add 
>>> yet another SC challenge.
>>>
>>> Am 18.12.2020 um 13:11 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny  via Tagging:
>>>
 I heavily edited  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:floor
 and created  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level:ref

 Please, edit this pages if something can be improved.

 Review of this pages also would be welcomed.

 (edits triggered by  
 https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/1487
 and done as part of survey of a tagging situation beforea 
 potential implementation)

 ___Tagging mailing list 
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
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>>
>>
>> ___Tagging mailing list>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging sewage treatment basins

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 18. Dez. 2020 um 12:32 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> I'm not entirely happy with natural=water being applied to either sewage
> treatment or slurry.  Neither are natural and neither store water.
>


neither am I, not for the question of how "natural" they are (ship has
sailed) but because I would not consider "slurry" to be "water", although
they contain mostly water (looking at the parts) - 10% sulfuric acid is
also mostly water. Milk is also mostly water, as is beer.


Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] addr:floor and level:ref - Wiki review welcomed

[Simon Poole]

addr:floor is an address tag and used in -(postal)-addresses- when the 
floor is customarily or required to be included.


level:ref is a SIT tag used to indicate the name (or other numbering) of 
a level contrary to the zero based number of the level tag.


While both level:ref and addr:floor can have the same value, 
semantically they are different and replacing level:ref with addr:floor 
which is what you were suggesting with what boils down to a mechanical 
edit with SC, will break SIT tagged buildings.


Am 18.12.2020 um 14:01 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:
1) this edits were not intended as changing anything but to document 
current tagging

practice

2) how Simple Indoor Tagging is being broken by either of this tags?

3) If SIT is broken by that tags, how it can be avoided? Recommending 
to use

level tag together with either of this two?


Dec 18, 2020, 13:34 by si...@poole.ch:

This doesn't make any sense outside of trying breaking the SIT
tagging scheme If you have changes to suggest do that in the
context of  an SIT improvement and not just so that you can add
yet another SC challenge.

Am 18.12.2020 um 13:11 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:

I heavily edited
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:floor

and created https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level:ref


Please, edit this pages if something can be improved.

Review of this pages also would be welcomed.

(edits triggered by
https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/1487

and done as part of survey of a tagging situation before a
potential implementation)

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Re: [Tagging] addr:floor and level:ref - Wiki review welcomed

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Dec 18, 2020, 14:56 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

> Am Fr., 18. Dez. 2020 um 14:07 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <> 
> matkoni...@tutanota.com> >:
>
>>
>> 4) I am not planning to work on deprecating either one
>>
>
>
> but you are working on cosolidating _both_
>
No, I just researched and described current state. What is needed anyway before 
any sort 
of meaningful deprecation discussion.


> "level:ref" could be described as a possible duplicate of addr:floor 
> introduced through
> undiscussed massedits or imports
>
This would require further research, to locate them - maybe this edits/imports 
were discussed.

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Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

[Ture Pålsson via Tagging]

> 14 dec. 2020 kl. 19:06 skrev Ture Pålsson :
> 
> I have implemented the merge-adjacent-areas scheme in my renderer. I’ll try 
> to get a demo up… :-)
> 
> Having said that, as a renderer implementer, I have a slight preference for 
> the relation method. It is s implyeasier to join things on numeric id than to 
> join them by adjacency.

I don’t remember whether this has already been mentioned, but it just occurred 
to me:

One problem with merging adjacent areas for labelling purposes, is when the 
areas share no tags, except the name. For example, it is not unusual to have a 
natural=wetland sharing some boundary with a natural=water, where the name 
applies to the entire wet area. So you can’t just merge adjacent 
natuarl=wetland, you also have to remember to merge natural=water with adjacent 
natural=wetland, if their names match. And natural=riverbank. And 
landuse=reservoir ( :-) ). And the gods of cartography knows what else.

I am now leaning a bit heavier towards the ”relation” alternative…

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Re: [Tagging] addr:floor and level:ref - Wiki review welcomed

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 18. Dez. 2020 um 14:07 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> 1) both are in use and while level:ref has more uses most of them come
> from mass edits[1]
>
> 2) this edits were intended to document current tagging practice, not to
> create a proposal
>
> 3) addr:floor went through a proposal[2] and I am not going to mark it as
> deprecated
> without consultation
>


right, so maybe deprecate level:ref ? I agree it comes from massedits or
imports:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/level:ref#chronology



> 4) I am not planning to work on deprecating either one
>


but you are working on cosolidating _both_
If both have decent wiki descriptions it will be harder to deprecate them
in the future, while "level:ref" could be described as a possible duplicate
of addr:floor introduced through undiscussed massedits or imports, and last
week it was still completely undocumented ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] addr:floor and level:ref - Wiki review welcomed

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

1) both are in use and while level:ref has more uses most of them come from 
mass edits[1]

2) this edits were intended to document current tagging practice, not to create 
a proposal

3) addr:floor went through a proposal[2] and I am not going to mark it as 
deprecated
without consultation

4) I am not planning to work on deprecating either one

5) I am not aware about any subtle differences except what was mentioned at 
wiki page 
(tagging trash can with level:ref seems reasonable, tagging trash can with 
addr:floor seems
weird, similar with other tags not carrying addresses)

6) If someone wants to make a proposal related to this tags (including 
deprecations)
- feel free, I am not planning to do this

[1] note spikes in usage count at 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/level%3Aref#chronology
indicating large numbers of tags added in very short time, with barely any use 
otherwise -
typical for imports and mass retaggings
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/addr_keys_(2011-04)


Dec 18, 2020, 13:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

> Your edit makes sense, at least as a first step, but we should reflect how to 
> explain why addr:floor is described as an alternative to level:ref, and not 
> as a "possible tagging mistake". Are there subtle differences? If not, I 
> would prefer to choose one and discourage the other. 10.000 uses are not 
> completely ignorable, but they still indicate this is in the beginning, given 
> that we have millions of POIs.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>

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Re: [Tagging] addr:floor and level:ref - Wiki review welcomed

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

1) this edits were not intended as changing anything but to document current 
tagging
practice

2) how Simple Indoor Tagging is being broken by either of this tags?

3) If SIT is broken by that tags, how it can be avoided? Recommending to use 
level tag together with either of this two?


Dec 18, 2020, 13:34 by si...@poole.ch:

>
> This doesn't make any sense outside of trying breaking the SIT  tagging 
> scheme If you have changes to suggest do that in the  context of  an SIT 
> improvement and not just so that you can add  yet another SC challenge.
>
> Am 18.12.2020 um 13:11 schrieb Mateusz  Konieczny via Tagging:
>
>> I heavily edited >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:floor
>> and created >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level:ref
>>
>> Please, edit this pages if something can be improved.
>>
>> Review of this pages also would be welcomed.
>>
>> (edits triggered by >> 
>> https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/1487
>> and done as part of survey of a tagging situation before apotential 
>> implementation)
>>
>> ___Tagging mailing list>> 
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>

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Re: [Tagging] addr:floor and level:ref - Wiki review welcomed

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Your edit makes sense, at least as a first step, but we should reflect how
to explain why addr:floor is described as an alternative to level:ref, and
not as a "possible tagging mistake". Are there subtle differences? If not,
I would prefer to choose one and discourage the other. 10.000 uses are not
completely ignorable, but they still indicate this is in the beginning,
given that we have millions of POIs.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] addr:floor and level:ref - Wiki review welcomed

[Simon Poole]

This doesn't make any sense outside of trying breaking the SIT tagging 
scheme If you have changes to suggest do that in the context of  an SIT 
improvement and not just so that you can add yet another SC challenge.


Am 18.12.2020 um 13:11 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:
I heavily edited https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:floor 

and created https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level:ref 



Please, edit this pages if something can be improved.

Review of this pages also would be welcomed.

(edits triggered by 
https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/1487 

and done as part of survey of a tagging situation before a potential 
implementation)


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[Tagging] addr:floor and level:ref - Wiki review welcomed

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

I heavily edited https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:floor
and created https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level:ref

Please, edit this pages if something can be improved.

Review of this pages also would be welcomed.

(edits triggered by https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/1487
and done as part of survey of a tagging situation before a potential 
implementation)
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging sewage treatment basins

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 at 01:04, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

>
> But there is also
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dwastewater_plant -
> man_made=wastewater_plant so perhaps the key wastewater_plant=* would be
> appropriate, e.g.: landuse=basin + content=sewage
> + wastewater_plant=decanter for your example?
>

landuse=basin seems inappropriate for many wastewater  treatment plants.
It may be appropriate for plants which use constructed wetlands, but the
plants
that have aerators, clarifiers, digesters, etc. don't have anything that
could be
called a basin but do have large, mappable objects (the circular profiles
are
a good clue from aerlial imagery that a wastewater plant is there).  See
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/ESQUEMPEQUE-EN.jpg

There are also farm slurry pits, which handle animal faeces but do not
attempt to purify water.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slurry_pit

I'm not entirely happy with natural=water being applied to either sewage
treatment or slurry.  Neither are natural and neither store water.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Proposed feature - RFC - Military Bases

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 18. Dec 2020, at 03:40, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> A base is the (almost invariably) enclosed area where a military 
> establishment is located: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_base. It 
> will include a variety of buildings, facilities etc in the area, & may be 
> used by different branches of Military Service eg Army, Air Force. However, 
> they are different to a military=training_area, as that is where field 
> training, as opposed to classroom, takes place. 



there are quite different kinds of bases, some are “permanent” and may be in 
the home country of the military, others may be in “allied“ nations, with 
contractual or defacto relationships, and there may be also those in conflict 
and war zones etc.

Their nature may be very different, e.g. used to provide replenishment, used as 
relais station for communications (including “combat“ action like murdering 
people through drone strikes), used as hospital area for injured soldiers, used 
as command stations, used as a relatively safe space in a combat area, ...

There’s also nowadays the situation where private contractors may be in the 
same base as the military forces.
Operation military kids may have some information: 
https://www.operationmilitarykids.org/private-military-companies/

Do you see PMC as landuse=military? 

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