Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[stevea]

I agree with Mateusz here:  whether to tag a way after the name of a route 
which includes it (if it didn't have a name=* tag beforehand) isn't a "one size 
fits all" situation.  It's difficult to describe what the right thing to do is 
in all cases.

> On Dec 29, 2022, at 11:18 PM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> This does not apply everywhere, even if applies in some cases.
> 
> Many trails are minor and their names are not actually names of roads/paths
> where they lead even if this road/path is nameless.
> 
> In Poland even for 
> https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%82%C3%B3wny_Szlak_Beskidzki
> it is debatable whether its name should carry to paths and for example
> almost certainly not applying to
> https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wschodni_Szlak_Rowerowy_Green_Velo
> 
> And clearly not happening with many minor trails.
> 
> Dec 30, 2022, 03:19 by bradha...@fastmail.com:
> +1
> If the only name is the route name I think it makes good sense to put it on 
> the local way too, that's the name of the trail. 


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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

This does not apply everywhere, even if applies in some cases.

Many trails are minor and their names are not actually names of roads/paths
where they lead even if this road/path is nameless.

In Poland even for 
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%82%C3%B3wny_Szlak_Beskidzki
it is debatable whether its name should carry to paths and for example
almost certainly not applying to
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wschodni_Szlak_Rowerowy_Green_Velo

And clearly not happening with many minor trails.

Dec 30, 2022, 03:19 by bradha...@fastmail.com:

> +1
>  If the only name is the route name I think it makes good sense toput it 
> on the local way too, that's the name of the trail. 
>

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Building Hydrant Inlet

[Kyle Hensel]

Hi All. Following a recent discussion on the tagging mailing list, I have 
created a proposal for Building Hydrant Inlets.

https://wiki.osm.org/Proposal_features/Building_inlet


You can discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page or here.
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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[brad]

+1
If the only name is the route name I think it makes good sense to put it 
on the local way too, that's the name of the trail.


Brad

On 12/29/22 08:59, Zeke Farwell wrote:
I've heard the assertion that a way has no name but the route that 
passes over it does many times.  While this is true in some cases, in 
others it is not.  Where the primary purpose of the way is not for the 
route, this does make sense.  For example mentioned by Jmapb where the 
Appalachian trail follows an unnamed driveway or sidewalk.  In these 
cases, the primary purpose is a driveway or sidewalk for local use, 
and the Appalachian Trail just happens to follow it as well.  Here 
putting the name Appalachian Trail on the way makes no sense. However, 
there are also dedicated sections of trail built first and foremost to 
be a part of the Appalachian Trail and that have no other name.  
Omitting the name Appalachian Trail in a case like that makes no sense 
to me.  That section of trail is indeed called the Appalachian Trail.  
The whole route is also called the Appalachian Trail and that's ok.



On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 10:38 AM Jmapb  wrote:

On 12/29/2022 10:13 AM, Zeke Farwell wrote:

Yes, the way name tag should be the most local trail name. 
However, sometimes there is no local trail name and the long
distance route name is the only name.  In this case putting the
long distance route name on the ways also makes sense.


I've been doing some mapping on the Appalachian Trail lately and
this appears to be the common practice, although the AT is
dominant enough that constituent trails sometimes lose their local
names over time.

Some mappers will take it a little too far and tag sections of
sidewalk and driveway that the AT follows with name=Appalachian
Trail (or even name=Appalachian National Scenic Trail... IMO this
is an official_name, and probably only belongs on the route
superrelation.)

It's common to see ref=AT as well, which is fine on trails (even
locally named ones) and perhaps ok on the sidewalks, but adding it
to a vehicular road seems iffy.

Jason




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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a point-of-interest sign

[brad]

I think you should check your data.   Looking at USGS topo, that point 
does look very close to the continental divide.
Usually, but I suppose not always,  when you go over the divide you are 
going over a pass.  This one seems to be fairly flat so perhaps never 
got named.
I don't use mapillary, but according to the USGS topo loaded into 
qmapshack the divide crosses that road at

N35.005307° W108.081164°

I have seen a similar sign in NM that wasn't on the divide & I assumed 
it was a joke put up by a local prankster, but this one seems right.


On 12/29/22 11:52, Volker Schmidt wrote:
I have now checked on Gmaps: that sign is not on the continental 
divide, but it is announcing the continental divide. About 175m 
further there is an identical sign on the other side of the road, and 
facing the opposite direction. Hence there is a pass, but the highest 
point itself is not marked. I have added a mountain pass in the middle 
between the signs with a provisional name, which I will have checked 
by a local, whom I happen to know.
.The "Continental Divide" is not a pass, but a watershed that is 
several thousand km long.


Il giorno gio 29 dic 2022 alle ore 16:40 Joseph Eisenberg 
 ha scritto:


This example should also be mapped as a pass, with a node tagged
mountain_pass=yes on the highway, with the elevation

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 2:26 PM Volker Schmidt 
wrote:

I would like to tag signs that do refer to Points of Interest
like this example






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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a point-of-interest sign

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29 Dec 2022, at 20:47, Jez Nicholson  wrote:
> 
> Did you go for tourism:information_board? Personally I would expect it to be 
> a form of road sign rather than an information board, which is on the spot 
> itself and not normally aimed at drivers.


I agree with Jez that we usually map different kinds of boards with 
information=board and the example here appears to be a traffic sign.
Tag is traffic_sign=*
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a point-of-interest sign

[Jez Nicholson]

Did you go for tourism:information_board? Personally I would expect it to
be a form of road sign rather than an information board, which is on the
spot itself and not normally aimed at drivers.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, 18:55 Volker Schmidt,  wrote:

> I have now checked on Gmaps: that sign is not on the continental divide,
> but it is announcing the continental divide. About 175m further there is an
> identical sign on the other side of the road, and facing the opposite
> direction. Hence there is a pass, but the highest point itself is not
> marked. I have added a mountain pass in the middle between the signs with a
> provisional name, which I will have checked by a local, whom I happen to
> know.
> .The "Continental Divide" is not a pass, but a watershed that is several
> thousand km long.
>
> Il giorno gio 29 dic 2022 alle ore 16:40 Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> This example should also be mapped as a pass, with a node tagged
>> mountain_pass=yes on the highway, with the elevation
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 2:26 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to tag signs that do refer to Points of Interest like this
>>> example 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Volker Schmidt]

I know this problem from cycle routes. Individual ways that are part of a
hiking or cycling route should normally not carry the name of the route.
First because in most cases it will be factually wrong, but also such
invented names will make it difficult to find ways with genuinly missing
names in our database.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, 19:08 Peter Elderson,  wrote:

> I have seen some paths which actually had the same name as the hiking
> trail running over it. Normally this is not the case, the path usually has
> is own local name or no name at all. So most of the time this would be an
> error, but you can't be sure without survey.
>
> Fr Gr Peter Elderson
>
> Op 29 dec. 2022 om 18:28 heeft Tod Fitch  het
> volgende geschreven:
>
> It makes sense to me that each segment of a long distance walking/hiking
> route should be looked at individually. It might have no name (uses a
> section of a driveway), it might have a name of its own (the “San Clemente
> Beach Trail” near me is part of the long distance “California Coastal
> Trail”), or it might have been purpose built for that long distance route.
>
> My issue with hiking routes is that people seem to want to use the name
> field as a description. And they sometimes want to use the ref field as a
> description too. That makes it really hard for a data consumer to make use
> of the information. I wrote some stuff about that a bit over a year ago [1].
>
> Cheers,
> Tod
>
> [1]
> https://retiredtechie.fitchfamily.org/2021/09/12/california-hiking-routes-in-openstreetmap/
>
> On Dec 29, 2022, at 7:59 AM, Zeke Farwell  wrote:
>
> I've heard the assertion that a way has no name but the route that passes
> over it does many times.  While this is true in some cases, in others it is
> not.  Where the primary purpose of the way is not for the route, this does
> make sense.  For example mentioned by Jmapb where the Appalachian trail
> follows an unnamed driveway or sidewalk.  In these cases, the primary
> purpose is a driveway or sidewalk for local use, and the Appalachian Trail
> just happens to follow it as well.  Here putting the name Appalachian Trail
> on the way makes no sense.  However, there are also dedicated sections of
> trail built first and foremost to be a part of the Appalachian Trail and
> that have no other name.  Omitting the name Appalachian Trail in a case
> like that makes no sense to me.  That section of trail is indeed called the
> Appalachian Trail.  The whole route is also called the Appalachian Trail
> and that's ok.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 10:38 AM Jmapb  wrote:
>
>> On 12/29/2022 10:13 AM, Zeke Farwell wrote:
>>
>> Yes, the way name tag should be the most local trail name.  However,
>> sometimes there is no local trail name and the long distance route name is
>> the only name.  In this case putting the long distance route name on the
>> ways also makes sense.
>>
>> I've been doing some mapping on the Appalachian Trail lately and this
>> appears to be the common practice, although the AT is dominant enough that
>> constituent trails sometimes lose their local names over time.
>>
>> Some mappers will take it a little too far and tag sections of sidewalk
>> and driveway that the AT follows with name=Appalachian Trail (or even
>> name=Appalachian National Scenic Trail... IMO this is an official_name, and
>> probably only belongs on the route superrelation.)
>>
>> It's common to see ref=AT as well, which is fine on trails (even locally
>> named ones) and perhaps ok on the sidewalks, but adding it to a vehicular
>> road seems iffy.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Zeke Farwell]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 1:08 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> So most of the time this would be an error, but you can't be sure without
> survey.
>

I agree on the survey part, but not on the "most of the time" part.
Sometimes it's an error, sometimes it's not.  How likely it is to be one or
the other is highly situational.
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a point-of-interest sign

[Volker Schmidt]

I have now checked on Gmaps: that sign is not on the continental divide,
but it is announcing the continental divide. About 175m further there is an
identical sign on the other side of the road, and facing the opposite
direction. Hence there is a pass, but the highest point itself is not
marked. I have added a mountain pass in the middle between the signs with a
provisional name, which I will have checked by a local, whom I happen to
know.
.The "Continental Divide" is not a pass, but a watershed that is several
thousand km long.

Il giorno gio 29 dic 2022 alle ore 16:40 Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> This example should also be mapped as a pass, with a node tagged
> mountain_pass=yes on the highway, with the elevation
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 2:26 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
>> I would like to tag signs that do refer to Points of Interest like this
>> example 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Peter Elderson]

I have seen some paths which actually had the same name as the hiking trail running over it. Normally this is not the case, the path usually has is own local name or no name at all. So most of the time this would be an error, but you can't be sure without survey.Fr Gr Peter EldersonOp 29 dec. 2022 om 18:28 heeft Tod Fitch  het volgende geschreven:It makes sense to me that each segment of a long distance walking/hiking route should be looked at individually. It might have no name (uses a section of a driveway), it might have a name of its own (the “San Clemente Beach Trail” near me is part of the long distance “California Coastal Trail”), or it might have been purpose built for that long distance route.My issue with hiking routes is that people seem to want to use the name field as a description. And they sometimes want to use the ref field as a description too. That makes it really hard for a data consumer to make use of the information. I wrote some stuff about that a bit over a year ago [1].Cheers,Tod[1] https://retiredtechie.fitchfamily.org/2021/09/12/california-hiking-routes-in-openstreetmap/On Dec 29, 2022, at 7:59 AM, Zeke Farwell  wrote:I've heard the assertion that a way has no name but the route that passes over it does many times.  While this is true in some cases, in others it is not.  Where the primary purpose of the way is not for the route, this does make sense.  For example mentioned by Jmapb where the Appalachian trail follows an unnamed driveway or sidewalk.  In these cases, the primary purpose is a driveway or sidewalk for local use, and the Appalachian Trail just happens to follow it as well.  Here putting the name Appalachian Trail on the way makes no sense.  However, there are also dedicated sections of trail built first and foremost to be a part of the Appalachian Trail and that have no other name.  Omitting the name Appalachian Trail in a case like that makes no sense to me.  That section of trail is indeed called the Appalachian Trail.  The whole route is also called the Appalachian Trail and that's ok.  On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 10:38 AM Jmapb  wrote:
  

  
  
On 12/29/2022 10:13 AM, Zeke Farwell
  wrote:


  
Yes, the way name tag should be the most local trail name. 
  However, sometimes there is no local trail name and the long
  distance route name is the only name.  In this case putting
  the long distance route name on the ways also makes sense.
  
I've been doing some mapping on the Appalachian Trail lately and
  this appears to be the common practice, although the AT is
  dominant enough that constituent trails sometimes lose their local
  names over time.Some mappers will take it a little too far and tag sections of
  sidewalk and driveway that the AT follows with name=Appalachian
  Trail (or even name=Appalachian National Scenic Trail... IMO this
  is an official_name, and probably only belongs on the route
  superrelation.)It's common to see ref=AT as well, which is fine on trails (even
  locally named ones) and perhaps ok on the sidewalks, but adding it
  to a vehicular road seems iffy.Jason




  

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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Tod Fitch]

It makes sense to me that each segment of a long distance walking/hiking route 
should be looked at individually. It might have no name (uses a section of a 
driveway), it might have a name of its own (the “San Clemente Beach Trail” near 
me is part of the long distance “California Coastal Trail”), or it might have 
been purpose built for that long distance route.

My issue with hiking routes is that people seem to want to use the name field 
as a description. And they sometimes want to use the ref field as a description 
too. That makes it really hard for a data consumer to make use of the 
information. I wrote some stuff about that a bit over a year ago [1].

Cheers,
Tod

[1] 
https://retiredtechie.fitchfamily.org/2021/09/12/california-hiking-routes-in-openstreetmap/

> On Dec 29, 2022, at 7:59 AM, Zeke Farwell  wrote:
> 
> I've heard the assertion that a way has no name but the route that passes 
> over it does many times.  While this is true in some cases, in others it is 
> not.  Where the primary purpose of the way is not for the route, this does 
> make sense.  For example mentioned by Jmapb where the Appalachian trail 
> follows an unnamed driveway or sidewalk.  In these cases, the primary purpose 
> is a driveway or sidewalk for local use, and the Appalachian Trail just 
> happens to follow it as well.  Here putting the name Appalachian Trail on the 
> way makes no sense.  However, there are also dedicated sections of trail 
> built first and foremost to be a part of the Appalachian Trail and that have 
> no other name.  Omitting the name Appalachian Trail in a case like that makes 
> no sense to me.  That section of trail is indeed called the Appalachian 
> Trail.  The whole route is also called the Appalachian Trail and that's ok.  
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 10:38 AM Jmapb mailto:jm...@gmx.com>> 
> wrote:
> On 12/29/2022 10:13 AM, Zeke Farwell wrote:
>> Yes, the way name tag should be the most local trail name.  However, 
>> sometimes there is no local trail name and the long distance route name is 
>> the only name.  In this case putting the long distance route name on the 
>> ways also makes sense.
> I've been doing some mapping on the Appalachian Trail lately and this appears 
> to be the common practice, although the AT is dominant enough that 
> constituent trails sometimes lose their local names over time.
> 
> Some mappers will take it a little too far and tag sections of sidewalk and 
> driveway that the AT follows with name=Appalachian Trail (or even 
> name=Appalachian National Scenic Trail... IMO this is an official_name, and 
> probably only belongs on the route superrelation.)
> 
> It's common to see ref=AT as well, which is fine on trails (even locally 
> named ones) and perhaps ok on the sidewalks, but adding it to a vehicular 
> road seems iffy.
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Zeke Farwell]

I've heard the assertion that a way has no name but the route that passes
over it does many times.  While this is true in some cases, in others it is
not.  Where the primary purpose of the way is not for the route, this does
make sense.  For example mentioned by Jmapb where the Appalachian trail
follows an unnamed driveway or sidewalk.  In these cases, the primary
purpose is a driveway or sidewalk for local use, and the Appalachian Trail
just happens to follow it as well.  Here putting the name Appalachian Trail
on the way makes no sense.  However, there are also dedicated sections of
trail built first and foremost to be a part of the Appalachian Trail and
that have no other name.  Omitting the name Appalachian Trail in a case
like that makes no sense to me.  That section of trail is indeed called the
Appalachian Trail.  The whole route is also called the Appalachian Trail
and that's ok.


On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 10:38 AM Jmapb  wrote:

> On 12/29/2022 10:13 AM, Zeke Farwell wrote:
>
> Yes, the way name tag should be the most local trail name.  However,
> sometimes there is no local trail name and the long distance route name is
> the only name.  In this case putting the long distance route name on the
> ways also makes sense.
>
> I've been doing some mapping on the Appalachian Trail lately and this
> appears to be the common practice, although the AT is dominant enough that
> constituent trails sometimes lose their local names over time.
>
> Some mappers will take it a little too far and tag sections of sidewalk
> and driveway that the AT follows with name=Appalachian Trail (or even
> name=Appalachian National Scenic Trail... IMO this is an official_name, and
> probably only belongs on the route superrelation.)
>
> It's common to see ref=AT as well, which is fine on trails (even locally
> named ones) and perhaps ok on the sidewalks, but adding it to a vehicular
> road seems iffy.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a point-of-interest sign

[Joseph Eisenberg]

This example should also be mapped as a pass, with a node tagged
mountain_pass=yes on the highway, with the elevation

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 2:26 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> I would like to tag signs that do refer to Points of Interest like this
> example 
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Jmapb]

On 12/29/2022 10:13 AM, Zeke Farwell wrote:
Yes, the way name tag should be the most local trail name. However, 
sometimes there is no local trail name and the long distance route 
name is the only name.  In this case putting the long distance route 
name on the ways also makes sense.


I've been doing some mapping on the Appalachian Trail lately and this 
appears to be the common practice, although the AT is dominant enough 
that constituent trails sometimes lose their local names over time.


Some mappers will take it a little too far and tag sections of sidewalk 
and driveway that the AT follows with name=Appalachian Trail (or even 
name=Appalachian National Scenic Trail... IMO this is an official_name, 
and probably only belongs on the route superrelation.)


It's common to see ref=AT as well, which is fine on trails (even locally 
named ones) and perhaps ok on the sidewalks, but adding it to a 
vehicular road seems iffy.


Jason



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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Dave F via Tagging]

On 29/12/2022 15:13, Zeke Farwell wrote:
On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 9:15 AM Dave F via Tagging 
 wrote:



The actual way routes progress along often have their own, different,
name. These should be ithe name placed in the way's name tag.


Yes, the way name tag should be the most local trail name.  However, 
sometimes there is no local trail name and the long distance route 
name is the only name.  In this case putting the long distance route 
name on the ways also makes sense.


No, because in your example the way has no name. The name of the route 
is not the name of the way it travels along.
Keep routes within relations. Don't duplicate route names onto ways as 
duplication always leads to errors where only one name is updated.


DaveF
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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Zeke Farwell]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 9:15 AM Dave F via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> The actual way routes progress along often have their own, different,
> name. These should be ithe name placed in the way's name tag.
>

Yes, the way name tag should be the most local trail name.  However,
sometimes there is no local trail name and the long distance route name is
the only name.  In this case putting the long distance route name on the
ways also makes sense.
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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Dave F via Tagging]

On 29/12/2022 12:32, Yves via Tagging wrote:
The simpliest way to map a long route is to give the same name to 
every ways it is composed of.


The reason route relations were created was because long routes share 
the /same/ ways. It avoids cluttering up the name & ref tags


The actual way routes progress along often have their own, different, 
name. These should be ithe name placed in the way's name tag.


DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Yves via Tagging]

The simpliest way to map a long route is to give the same name to every ways it 
is composed of. Then, in second position, you can also create a relation.
Regards, 
Yves 


Le 29 décembre 2022 10:47:44 GMT+01:00, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>Hi,
>
>It appears that route name are being applied to track/path names,
>
>I believe this comes about due to signs that state the route names and point 
>along the track/path that appear to the name of the track/path.
>
>For example Way 228853104 
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/228853104#map=15/37.8558/-107.3617
>
>Tagged as;
>
>name     Continental Divide NST {NST being an abbreviation of National Scenic 
>Trail}
>name_1     Colorado Trail (Segment 22)
>
>and part of relations;
>
>
>    Relation Colorado Trail (3445384)
>    Relation CDT ivc (8053592) {this is an abbreviation of Continental Divide 
>Trail and part of a relation, that is part of a relation, that is part of 
>Relation: Continental Divide National Scenic Trail (921198)!!!}
>
>I think the 'names' should be removed from these 'unnamed' things ..the 'name' 
>is the name of the route not the individual tracks/paths some of which existed 
>before some routes were created.
>
>Note I am not that familiar with the above 2 routes but am familiar with two 
>near me .. and those routes are relatively recent compared to the tracks and 
>paths they use.  I am useing those 2 routes as more people would be aware of 
>them than the ones I know.
>
>
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[Tagging] Route names being applied to tracks/paths

[Warin]

Hi,

It appears that route name are being applied to track/path names,

I believe this comes about due to signs that state the route names and 
point along the track/path that appear to the name of the track/path.


For example Way 228853104 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/228853104#map=15/37.8558/-107.3617


Tagged as;

name     Continental Divide NST {NST being an abbreviation of National 
Scenic Trail}

name_1     Colorado Trail (Segment 22)

and part of relations;


    Relation Colorado Trail (3445384)
    Relation CDT ivc (8053592) {this is an abbreviation of Continental 
Divide Trail and part of a relation, that is part of a relation, that is 
part of Relation: Continental Divide National Scenic Trail (921198)!!!}


I think the 'names' should be removed from these 'unnamed' things ..the 
'name' is the name of the route not the individual tracks/paths some of 
which existed before some routes were created.


Note I am not that familiar with the above 2 routes but am familiar with 
two near me .. and those routes are relatively recent compared to the 
tracks and paths they use.  I am useing those 2 routes as more people 
would be aware of them than the ones I know.



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