Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Daniel Bégin]

The same in Canada…

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From: stevea
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 03:15
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

On Jan 29, 2023, at 5:31 AM, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 12:12:06AM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>
>> When I first encountered Canadian four way stops in 1980, I did think these 
>> should be mini-roundabouts.
>
> Thats the main point. In Germany we have a solution of "last resort"
> which is called "Rechts vor links" - So when there is no other
> rules of priority its "Right before left".
>
> Other jurisdications dont have this so there is a problem with producing
> junctions with "equal priority". The UK solution is the "mini
> roundabout".

I don't usually jump on a post simply to disagree with it (it makes me sound 
"simply contrarian" and "argument provoking," which I am not), but I must do so 
here and now.  I am not an attorney.  In my state of California in the USA, at 
four-way stop-signs, we have a right-of-way law (California Vehicle Code §21800 
et al) which states essentially the same thing as what Florian calls Germany's 
"last resort:"  it says

"When two vehicles enter an intersection from different highways at the same 
time, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the 
vehicle on his or her immediate right."

So, please don't say "other jurisdictions don't have this," as obviously, some 
do.  Thank you.
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Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

[Daniel Bégin]

Thanks Nathan and ael, that makes me moving forward 

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From: ael via Tagging<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 06:27
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Cc: ael<mailto:witwa...@disroot.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:50:57PM +, Daniel Bégin wrote:
> I see your point. I may be mired with language issues (English is not my 
> native language) but either I create a “business” tag and document it or I 
> use office?

Well, I would be in favour of that. In this sort of context, I think
'company' and 'business' mean much the same, although in the UK, at
least, 'company' has a legal meaning, so 'business' is perhaps slightly
more general.

By the way, when I said that "office" was American dialect, slightly
frivolously, I meant its usage rather than the word itself.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

[Daniel Bégin]

I see your point. I may be mired with language issues (English is not my native 
language) but either I create a “business” tag and document it or I use office?

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From: ael via Tagging 
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2023 4:41:09 PM
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org 
Cc: ael 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 09:06:14PM +, Daniel Bégin wrote:
> Using the workplace of an electrician as an example, it was made clear that I 
> should use craft=electrician instead of office=electrician. But what if this 
> electrician sees its business get bigger (in a North American context)?
>
> The electrician eventually hires secretaries, accountants, many other 
> electricians and

...

Well I have always thought office=?? was pretty weird and was USA
dialect for what I would tag as business=electrician or
business=electrical_services. But the tag 'business' is undocumented and
unsupported, although I have used it ocasionally over several years.

I think that office=... only makes sense where the main function of the
premises is to act as ... an office :-)

ael


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Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

[Daniel Bégin]

I recently asked for a clarification and did not get any answer. So here is my 
question again (with some context):
Using the workplace of an electrician as an example, it was made clear that I 
should use craft=electrician instead of office=electrician. But what if this 
electrician sees its business get bigger (in a North American context)?

The electrician eventually hires secretaries, accountants, many other 
electricians and create a company (if not already incorporated). Should that 
workplace being tagged as office=company and company=electrician? Or if only 
the final output of the company should be taken into account (whatever its 
size) and then still be tagged craft=electrician?

Thank you for your patience :-)


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From: Daniel Bégin 
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2023 12:00:44 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

+1

Get Outlook for 
Android<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2FAAb9ysg=05%7C01%7C%7Cdc6b43cc2a4f4516bd6808daffbf80d5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638103495221855086%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=C8I344Y2ESDclNTWoXmhYi8E5PZpPaPUFNI6xG6%2F8BU%3D=0>

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2023 5:00:59 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.




On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 at 02:51, Daniel Bégin 
mailto:jfd...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
and office=psychologist because they provide services.

I would usually use healthcare=psychotherapist for them.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

[Daniel Bégin]

+1

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2023 5:00:59 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.




On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 at 02:51, Daniel Bégin 
mailto:jfd...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
and office=psychologist because they provide services.

I would usually use healthcare=psychotherapist for them.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

[Daniel Bégin]

Marc_marc wrote: “I would have rather described the [office] key as being the 
place of cerebral or administrative tasks, as opposed to craft which is the 
place of manual tasks”.

So basically, you consider that craft refers to any manual activity, from 
dressmakers to electricians, which could make sense. Using the same definition, 
using office=psychologist would also make sense, right?

Going back to the electrician as an example. The workplace of a person who 
comes to your house to change a plug or make an electrical installation in a 
building is tagged craft=electrician. I’m fine with it.
What if this electrician does a very good job and get popular? The electrician 
eventually hires many other electricians, secretaries, accountants, and create 
a company. Does that workplace be then tagged as office=company and 
company=electrician since mostly administrative tasks are now held in the 
workplace? Or if only the final output of the company is taken into account and 
then still be tagged craft=electrician?

Just trying to figure out a way to make sense ...
and I find it helpful so far :-)


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From: Marc_marc<mailto:marc_m...@mailo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2023 12:08
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

Le 25.01.23 à 17:48, Daniel Bégin a écrit :
> office=* refers to places mainly providing services
> and frequently selling them.

I would have rather described the key as being the place of cerebral or
administrative tasks, as opposed to craf which is the place of manual
tasks: technically it is not impossible that a craftsman has an office
in one place and a workshop in another (and even a shop in a third place)

> I would also use office=* for electricians because they provide services

it depends on the meaning of electrician:
if it is the person who comes to your house to change a plug or make
an electrical installation in a building, it is clearly a manual work
and not a service.
if it is the person working for a company producing electricity,
it is industrial with offices (but where there is no electrician)




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[Tagging] craft vs office for service enterprises/establishments.

[Daniel Bégin]

I want to tag multiple service enterprises and establishments but I am 
struggling to find which key I should use between craft=* and office=*.

craft=* refers to workshops producing or transforming goods, usually in small 
quantities, on demand and to order.
office=* refers to places mainly providing services and frequently selling them.

For example, using above definitions, I would use craft=dressmaker because they 
produce goods, and office=psychologist because they provide services.

My problem is that I would also use office=* for electricians because they 
provide services but they have historically been tagged as craft, as suggest 
the second part of craft’s definition “and for the workplaces of tradespersons 
such as electricians and gardeners".

Smart tips available on which tag to use for hundreds of different types of 
service-related businesses?
Thanks in advance 

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Re: [Tagging] Best practices for creating a categorical key=value

[Daniel Bégin]

I just wrote:  “I used office=construction_company because it's the only 
related tag in the wiki (Key:office).”
Here it is…  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_features#Office

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From: Daniel Bégin<mailto:jfd...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 13:17
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: RE: [Tagging] Best practices for creating a categorical key=value

Thank you all,
First, I used office=construction_company because it's the only related tag in 
the wiki (Key:office). Second, precast_concrete was just an example to 
illustrate the level of detail I want to provide. As I have dozens of different 
cases, I just want to create tags appropriately.

In the actual case I illustrated, the construction company fabricates and 
installs pillars, beams, etc. for large buildings and bridges. So there are 
many large buildings involved where man_made=works + product=precast_concrete 
can be used. However, in my case, I want to identify the location of the main 
office and add information such as name=*, phone=* and addr:*=. So a node with 
office=* seems more adequate.

A special thanks to Kasper, the links you provided are going to be very helpful!

Cheers
Daniel

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From: Casper Kersten<mailto:casperkerst...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 10:56
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Best practices for creating a categorical key=value

Hello. I suggest that you have a good look at the following pages:
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FAny_tags_you_like=05%7C01%7C%7C4d1bd8c5558848fdb45c08daf96c9378%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638096541977512001%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=csF6q9bHqjG2lacjEy4yKWHJqlm8YDiwAesZIl39xNw%3D=0>
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Joto/How_to_invent_tags<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FUser%3AJoto%2FHow_to_invent_tags=05%7C01%7C%7C4d1bd8c5558848fdb45c08daf96c9378%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638096541977668218%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=fiiJsRW%2Fw58NTEa%2Bj9JROQZjoSAr99HgRRiBXOSqEIk%3D=0>

Going through a proposal process isn't always necessary; you can just document 
your tag and give it the status "in use".

For this specific case I recommend using the tags office=company + 
company=construction, which are already documented:
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dcompany<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FTag%3Aoffice%253Dcompany=05%7C01%7C%7C4d1bd8c5558848fdb45c08daf96c9378%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638096541977668218%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=xpyBU5C7N15IroLP7t%2B9sBNuwViYPbm1G8woZlHVIv8%3D=0>
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acompany%3Dconstruction<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FTag%253Acompany%253Dconstruction=05%7C01%7C%7C4d1bd8c5558848fdb45c08daf96c9378%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638096541977668218%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=p1m3%2FLuPViKLfLPZfHo48clGDa1iRpNWBOWBaCKB8Y0%3D=0>

Personally I wouldn't tag on the office that a company specifically trades 
precast concrete.
This information fits better on a man_made=works as product=*, on the location 
where it is produced.
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dworks<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FTag%3Aman_made%253Dworks=05%7C01%7C%7C4d1bd8c5558848fdb45c08daf96c9378%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638096541977668218%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=mf76UWWYb263bNr%2F%2F5eo7KunGW7ILAipy%2FkrPQwYcbk%3D=0>
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:product<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FKey%3Aproduct=05%7C01%7C%7C4d1bd8c5558848fdb45c08daf96c9378%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638096541977668218%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=cEmj5BFnIoaOwmTW8YpID4BzmMqYX3h%2FdS3s6ypRc8s%3D=0>

Re: [Tagging] Best practices for creating a categorical key=value

[Daniel Bégin]

Thank you all,
First, I used office=construction_company because it's the only related tag in 
the wiki (Key:office). Second, precast_concrete was just an example to 
illustrate the level of detail I want to provide. As I have dozens of different 
cases, I just want to create tags appropriately.

In the actual case I illustrated, the construction company fabricates and 
installs pillars, beams, etc. for large buildings and bridges. So there are 
many large buildings involved where man_made=works + product=precast_concrete 
can be used. However, in my case, I want to identify the location of the main 
office and add information such as name=*, phone=* and addr:*=. So a node with 
office=* seems more adequate.

A special thanks to Kasper, the links you provided are going to be very helpful!

Cheers
Daniel

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Casper Kersten
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 10:56
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Best practices for creating a categorical key=value

Hello. I suggest that you have a good look at the following pages:
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Joto/How_to_invent_tags

Going through a proposal process isn't always necessary; you can just document 
your tag and give it the status "in use".

For this specific case I recommend using the tags office=company + 
company=construction, which are already documented:
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dcompany
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acompany%3Dconstruction

Personally I wouldn't tag on the office that a company specifically trades 
precast concrete.
This information fits better on a man_made=works as product=*, on the location 
where it is produced.
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dworks
* 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:product

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[Tagging] Best practices for creating a categorical key=value

[Daniel Bégin]

I want to locate and identify the offices of different construction companies 
in my area. I found that office=construction_company would be a good start but 
I also want to identify the type of construction company, what it builds, its 
specialty. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find any key that would allow me to do 
this (construction=* couldn't be an option). What if I create a new key that 
matches an often used pattern based on a higher hierarchical tag value? Would 
it be right?

For example, the mapping of a company that produces and installs precast 
concrete could be tagged as…

office=construction_company
construction_company=precast_concrete

but I have my doubts on the best way to do it. Any suggestion?
Thanks,Sent from Mail for 
Windows

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