Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Marco Boeringa]

Colin and others,

I think we have drifted a bit off of the original topic, my "original 
enquiry" was the notion that the "building=college" tag, with 15k uses, 
was not included on the building key page, and if it would be a good 
idea to include it.


From there, there was discussion about landuse of schools, which IMO is 
already covered by "amenity=school/college/university", as the Wiki 
pages for these features have now for years stated that the entire 
(campus) grounds should be tagged amenity=x, while the actual buildings 
on there should use building=x (e.g. 
building=school/university/"college??" or more appropriate tag if e.g. a 
building=office)


And than we landed on the meaning of the vague term "college"...

I think, as the OP, I will personally leave it at this. With my first 
post, I just wanted to note the apparent disparity with the existing 
building=school/university. But it is not a big thing to me.


Marco


Op 8-12-2017 om 22:51 schreef Colin Smale:


This is why the ISCED codes exist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Classification_of_Education#ISCED_2011_levels,_categories,_and_sub-categories

They are already used in OSM:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ISCED

So the original enquiry can be addressed with building=school and 
isced:level=*



On 2017-12-08 22:30, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:




sent from a phone

On 7. Dec 2017, at 19:31, Marco Boeringa > wrote:


Anyway, no tagging scheme for education will ever be perfect, the 
differences between individual countries and the usage of specific 
terminology is vast.



while this is true, choosing good names for the tags still helps in 
reducing misunderstandings. "college" for example is not a very clear 
term for use on global scale, because it can mean different things in 
different places / context. Something more abstract like 
secondary_school or different words like vocational school or 
professional school, which describe a concept, would IMHO be better 
than college.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Colin Smale]

This is why the ISCED codes exist: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Classification_of_Education#ISCED_2011_levels,_categories,_and_sub-categories


They are already used in OSM: 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ISCED 

So the original enquiry can be addressed with building=school and
isced:level=*

On 2017-12-08 22:30, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 7. Dec 2017, at 19:31, Marco Boeringa  wrote:
>> 
>> Anyway, no tagging scheme for education will ever be perfect, the 
>> differences between individual countries and the usage of specific 
>> terminology is vast.
> 
> while this is true, choosing good names for the tags still helps in reducing 
> misunderstandings. "college" for example is not a very clear term for use on 
> global scale, because it can mean different things in different places / 
> context. Something more abstract like secondary_school or different words 
> like vocational school or professional school, which describe a concept, 
> would IMHO be better than college.
> 
> cheers,
> Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Dec 2017, at 19:31, Marco Boeringa  wrote:
> 
> Anyway, no tagging scheme for education will ever be perfect, the differences 
> between individual countries and the usage of specific terminology is vast.


while this is true, choosing good names for the tags still helps in reducing 
misunderstandings. “college” for example is not a very clear term for use on 
global scale, because it can mean different things in different places / 
context. Something more abstract like secondary_school or different words like 
vocational school or professional school, which describe a concept, would IMHO 
be better than college.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Vao Matua]

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Steve Doerr wrote:

   On 07/12/2017 18:31, Marco Boeringa wrote:

>  College, as Vao Matua also pointed out, usually refers to secondary
> school / high school age education
>

Not in the UK, I'm afraid. It tends to refer to adult education of one
form or another. Or else an alternative to school for 17-to-18-year-olds
('sixth-form college').

Steve,

My point was that the term College in *Samoa* refers to secondary school /
high school age education. Not a statement about the use in all countries,
thanks for helping me understand the UK meaning.
Presently I am an instructor at a tertiary education institution that is
called a college.
All this is to say that the term "college" like many other terms has varied
meanings to different people.

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Steve Doerr  wrote:

> On 07/12/2017 18:31, Marco Boeringa wrote:
>
>> College, as Vao Matua also pointed out, usually refers to secondary
>> school / high school age education
>>
>
> Not in the UK, I'm afraid. It tends to refer to adult education of one
> form or another. Or else an alternative to school for 17-to-18-year-olds
> ('sixth-form college').
>
> --
> Steve
>
> ---
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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Yuri Astrakhan]

I think this is exactly the issue we had discussed previously:  "the
concept" vs "the ID" for that concept. When words are used as IDs, they
always come with semantic meaning based on your cultural background. The
words "college" and "sanatorium" mean different things. With an opaque ID
(e.g. number), none of that meaning is implied, but instead the exact
meaning is defined elsewhere, in multiple languages, and in precise terms.

Tagging has evolved based on British English-centric culture. OSM wiki has
created lists to clarify each "word as ID" meaning, but those lists are not
good for automatic tools, e.g. iD or JOSM auto-completes.  taginfo doesn't
help as it offers statistical, not semantic info. Example:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:denomination

While Wikidata has similar goals, parts of the OSM community are strongly
against the idea of outsourcing concept definitions.  Instead, we could set
up our own copy of Wikibase extension on OSM wiki, and use that at first in
parallel to the "words as IDs"?  E.g.  typeid=M123, and our wiki will
define M123 to be a "landuse of the college as a part of university, ...".
All tools would automatically show that text in the user's language, and
the proper icons. That DB could be easily queriable, multilingual, and
easily connectible to external DBs if needed.

P.S. Wikibase is a wiki extension that runs Wikidata, so it can be easily
added to OSM wiki


On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Steve Doerr  wrote:

> On 07/12/2017 18:31, Marco Boeringa wrote:
>
>> College, as Vao Matua also pointed out, usually refers to secondary
>> school / high school age education
>>
>
> Not in the UK, I'm afraid. It tends to refer to adult education of one
> form or another. Or else an alternative to school for 17-to-18-year-olds
> ('sixth-form college').
>
> --
> Steve
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Steve Doerr]

On 07/12/2017 18:31, Marco Boeringa wrote:
College, as Vao Matua also pointed out, usually refers to secondary 
school / high school age education


Not in the UK, I'm afraid. It tends to refer to adult education of one 
form or another. Or else an alternative to school for 17-to-18-year-olds 
('sixth-form college').


--
Steve

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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 8 December 2017 at 04:56, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

And, although I'm well aware that UK English is the standard for OSM
> tagging, this tag will continue to cause confusion
>

Which is the problem we keep hitting that OSM tries to use one word
worldwide, when it means different things in different countries.

Here in Australia, "college" usually refers to "university", but I know of
a number of "schools", that are named College, that cover Prep (Pre-school
/ Year 0) through to Year 12. In one case, the school is spread over 3
separate parcels of land, for Prep-6, 7-9 & 10-12! How do you tag that?

I'd much prefer something like 'landuse=education education=secondary'.
> We can dispute the precise tagging, but 'college' is just too
> overloaded.
>

I agree

landuse=education

education=preschool (? - should that be included in primary?) / primary /
secondary / tertiary  (& possibly post-grad ?)

Wouldn't that cover all options, fairly neatly?

In the case I mentioned above, it would still be named College, but the
three areas would be =primary, =secondary & =secondary

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Kevin Kenny]

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Marco Boeringa  wrote:
> Yes, I agree "school" is a pretty loose term used from anything ranging from
> kindergarten to primary to secondary school / high school / college.
>
> However, "college" and "university" aren't. College, as Vao Matua also
> pointed out, usually refers to secondary school / high school age education,
> where the buildings do have additional (lab) facilities for science
> teaching, where a primary school usually wouldn't.
>
> I am fully aware many secondary schools / high schools are currently simply
> tagged "building=school". Ideally though, if there is a proper reference to
> "building=college" as well, I think many of these may in the long run be
> retagged to this more appropriate tag, if it clearly explains referencing
> secondary / high school education.

And, although I'm well aware that UK English is the standard for OSM
tagging, this tag will continue to cause confusion on this side of the
Atlantic indefinitely. Americans use 'college' and 'university' as
synonyms; you never hear 'college' used in American English for
anything but a post-secondary institution. (This is an artifact of
history: early on, most of the institutions that became our
universities were indeed colleges.  They grew to take on the
post-secondary and research roles, and eventually ceded secondary
education.)

There's a weak correlation in that institutions with 'college' in
their name usually do not grant anything beyond a four-year degree,
while 'universities' have graduate programs, but that's very weak.  A
good many older universities retain the name 'college' despite
having extensive postgraduate programs, while even
some 'community colleges' (2-year institutions) presume to take on the
'university' label.

The tag is confusing even in the UK, where (as in the US), 'college'
can refer also to a subdivision of a university. Moreover, in the UK,
a 'college' in the university setting is often housed in a cluster of
buildings that offer residential accommodation and food service
as well as teaching and laboratories. It's a difficult term.

I'd much prefer something like 'landuse=education education=secondary'.
We can dispute the precise tagging, but 'college' is just too
overloaded.

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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Marco Boeringa]

Yes, I agree "school" is a pretty loose term used from anything ranging 
from kindergarten to primary to secondary school / high school / college.


However, "college" and "university" aren't. College, as Vao Matua also 
pointed out, usually refers to secondary school / high school age 
education, where the buildings do have additional (lab) facilities for 
science teaching, where a primary school usually wouldn't.


I am fully aware many secondary schools / high schools are currently 
simply tagged "building=school". Ideally though, if there is a proper 
reference to "building=college" as well, I think many of these may in 
the long run be retagged to this more appropriate tag, if it clearly 
explains referencing secondary / high school education.


An extra mildly complicating factor is the English education system 
"university college" term... I would classify the buildings belonging to 
those as "building=university", but I guess people from Britain wouldn't 
necessarily.


Anyway, no tagging scheme for education will ever be perfect, the 
differences between individual countries and the usage of specific 
terminology is vast.



Op 7-12-2017 om 17:05 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer:
2017-12-07 14:40 GMT+01:00 Marco Boeringa >:


* school: tag mostly used for kindergarten or primary school:
generally only classrooms and no dedicated laboratory / science /
workshop rooms with electrity, water, gas and a range of technical
equipment



"school" is also used for some secondary schools, not just for primary 
schools. It isn't typically used AFAIK for kindergartens.


Cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-12-07 14:40 GMT+01:00 Marco Boeringa :

> * school: tag mostly used for kindergarten or primary school: generally
> only classrooms and no dedicated laboratory / science / workshop rooms with
> electrity, water, gas and a range of technical equipment
>


"school" is also used for some secondary schools, not just for primary
schools. It isn't typically used AFAIK for kindergartens.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Vao Matua]

In Samoa the term "College" refers to a secondary school also known as a
high school in other places.

It seems that building=yes plus amenity=university for the area around the
buildings would work for the college question.

Can someone explain why there isn't a landuse=education tag, or something
equivalent?

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 7:48 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> 2017-12-07 13:53 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer :
>
>> So what is the building type difference between building=school and
>> building=college when it consists of seminar/class rooms?
>>
>>
>
> yes, these seem to describe the same (maybe there are differences,
> according to the type of college and special rooms needed for this).
>
>
>
>> Similarly there is little difference between a building with classrooms
>> used for a primary school or a kindergarten.
>>
>
>
> if you speak about Germany, there are differences. Kindergartens are
> usually built cheaper, have a different structure, and I think it is mostly
> like this. Kindergartens don't need a space for the kids to go during
> breaks for example.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-12-07 13:53 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer :

> So what is the building type difference between building=school and
> building=college when it consists of seminar/class rooms?
>
>

yes, these seem to describe the same (maybe there are differences,
according to the type of college and special rooms needed for this).



> Similarly there is little difference between a building with classrooms
> used for a primary school or a kindergarten.
>


if you speak about Germany, there are differences. Kindergartens are
usually built cheaper, have a different structure, and I think it is mostly
like this. Kindergartens don't need a space for the kids to go during
breaks for example.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Marco Boeringa]

Hi Tom,

Good point you raise about the building topology, but I do think there 
are reasons to allow this:


- As to your point of building topology, as I mostly interpret this:

* school: tag mostly used for kindergarten or primary school: generally 
only classrooms and no dedicated laboratory / science / workshop rooms 
with electrity, water, gas and a range of technical equipment


* college: additional facilities like dedicated laboratory / science / 
workshop rooms with electrity, water, gas and a range of technical 
equipment including one or two fume hoods are usually standard


* university: full lab facilities including expensive equipment 
requiring skilled operators, fume hoods, off-limit lab rooms for 
specialized research etc.


Of course, this is just a rough classification. E.g. a high paid 
luxurious private school/college may have more facilities than some 
public school/college.


- An additional reason for allowing this type of tagging, is that you 
can symbolize the actual buildings involved in a distinct way / color in 
a style.


By the way, I agree not all buildings on an e.g. an amentiy=university 
campus should by default be tagged building=university if there is a 
more appropriate tag. E.g., if the building is a garage, office or 
hospital just being part of the amenity=university campus grounds, tag 
the relevant tag and not generic building=university.


Marco


Op 7-12-2017 om 13:53 schreef Tom Pfeifer:
The method just to copy the amenity value onto the building value 
dilutes the idea that the building tag should describe the building 
typology.


An educational campus often consists both of purpose-built buildings, 
e.g. with a large lecture hall, as well as re-dedicated buildings such 
as a villa now being used for researcher's offices or seminar rooms.


So what is the building type difference between building=school and 
building=college when it consists of seminar/class rooms?


Similarly there is little difference between a building with 
classrooms used for a primary school or a kindergarten.


Anyway, what is the architectural perspective?

tom

On 07.12.2017 13:13, Marco Boeringa wrote:

"building=college"

is missing from the main building key page 
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building).


This tag is the equivalent of building=school/university as the 
accompanying key for tagging the actual buildings of an 
"amenity=college". It seems logical to add this to the building key 
page for consistency with school/university amenities and buildings.


There is already an English Wiki page that can be linked from the 
building page if this tag is added to the Civic/Amenity section just 
like the school/university examples:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Abuilding%3Dcollege

which also gives the TagInfo stat of almost 15.000 uses, so probably 
reason enough to add this to the main building key page as well.


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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Tom Pfeifer]

The method just to copy the amenity value onto the building value dilutes the idea that the building 
tag should describe the building typology.


An educational campus often consists both of purpose-built buildings, e.g. with a large lecture 
hall, as well as re-dedicated buildings such as a villa now being used for researcher's offices or 
seminar rooms.


So what is the building type difference between building=school and building=college when it 
consists of seminar/class rooms?


Similarly there is little difference between a building with classrooms used for a primary school or 
a kindergarten.


Anyway, what is the architectural perspective?

tom

On 07.12.2017 13:13, Marco Boeringa wrote:

"building=college"

is missing from the main building key page 
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building).

This tag is the equivalent of building=school/university as the accompanying key for tagging the 
actual buildings of an "amenity=college". It seems logical to add this to the building key page for 
consistency with school/university amenities and buildings.


There is already an English Wiki page that can be linked from the building page if this tag is added 
to the Civic/Amenity section just like the school/university examples:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Abuilding%3Dcollege

which also gives the TagInfo stat of almost 15.000 uses, so probably reason enough to add this to 
the main building key page as well.


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[Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Marco Boeringa]

Hi,

I noticed the tag

"building=college"

is missing from the main building key page 
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building).


This tag is the equivalent of building=school/university as the 
accompanying key for tagging the actual buildings of an 
"amenity=college". It seems logical to add this to the building key page 
for consistency with school/university amenities and buildings.


There is already an English Wiki page that can be linked from the 
building page if this tag is added to the Civic/Amenity section just 
like the school/university examples:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Abuilding%3Dcollege

which also gives the TagInfo stat of almost 15.000 uses, so probably 
reason enough to add this to the main building key page as well.


Marco



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